*** 80mm AMG Throttle Body ***
08-15-2006, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by vrus
Ok.. So on a F/I motor what does one measure to determine if the TB is a restriction or if it is adequately sized?
As the TB is BEFORE the SC there would be 'more vacuum' across the TB if it was restrictive. ie the vaccuum/airpessure would be lower after the butterfly/TB that before (ie the SC "sucks air).
If the SC pushed air through the TB (ie SC was upstream) the air pressure would be higher before the butterfly/TB if it was restrictive at WOT. To measure it you would need to bore holes in the air path before and after the TB.
08-15-2006, 02:38 PM
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I dont really want to drill holes to test this, so, maybe once everything has settled down and my tune is corrected, I am going to take another 80mm TB assembly and port it out to 82 or 83mm or whatever the max is, and see what happens. 
08-17-2006, 03:20 PM
#328
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Originally Posted by vrus
Khaled: Thanks for putting up the pictures for me.. Finally I've gotten a chance to see what the V12TT TB looks like.. I was wrong about the PCV connector.. It does have one on the bottom but it comes plugged up.. Essentially they look to be the same in design and function..
The only difference is the wiring output, the price, and the availability.
For some reason Renntech chose to use the AMG 80mm part and Kleemann is using the V12TT TB part.
-------------------------
Jim,
Yup. The plate we are waiting on adapts the mounting holes on the AMG 80mm TB. It basically provides a new "neck" for the supercharger inlet.
One thing I discovered is that the kit I put together is the EXACT kit that Renntech is selling for $3995 and I didnt even know it... Renntech is using the AMG 80mm TB and they are even supplying the 80mm Y-pipe like I do.
So after all the work, I came up with the same solution that Renntech is providing to its customers and I had never seen the Renntech kit before.
There are a few things I discovered also which are interesting.
- The V12TT TB and AMG 80mm TB both have 80mm bore size and both have a small step-up just before the throttle plate that transitions to 79mm.
- The throttle plate is actually 78mm in diameter.
- The exit bore is also 80mm like the front.
What this means is that if more power is extracted from these motors, based on wall thickness these 80mm TBs can be bored out to at least 81 or 82mm if needed.
Vadim did say that when he bored the stock one out to 76mm he was able to cut the vacuum across the TB down in half.. Going another 2mm to 78mm throttle plate must be enough to eliminate the vacuum and feed the motor the air it needs..
I think anything bigger would just be worse and that's why everyone stopped at this point. Once the power levels reach 700hp we may need to bore these babies out to 82 or 83mm..
The only difference is the wiring output, the price, and the availability.
For some reason Renntech chose to use the AMG 80mm part and Kleemann is using the V12TT TB part.
-------------------------
Jim,
Yup. The plate we are waiting on adapts the mounting holes on the AMG 80mm TB. It basically provides a new "neck" for the supercharger inlet.
One thing I discovered is that the kit I put together is the EXACT kit that Renntech is selling for $3995 and I didnt even know it... Renntech is using the AMG 80mm TB and they are even supplying the 80mm Y-pipe like I do.
So after all the work, I came up with the same solution that Renntech is providing to its customers and I had never seen the Renntech kit before.
There are a few things I discovered also which are interesting.
- The V12TT TB and AMG 80mm TB both have 80mm bore size and both have a small step-up just before the throttle plate that transitions to 79mm.
- The throttle plate is actually 78mm in diameter.
- The exit bore is also 80mm like the front.
What this means is that if more power is extracted from these motors, based on wall thickness these 80mm TBs can be bored out to at least 81 or 82mm if needed.
Vadim did say that when he bored the stock one out to 76mm he was able to cut the vacuum across the TB down in half.. Going another 2mm to 78mm throttle plate must be enough to eliminate the vacuum and feed the motor the air it needs..
I think anything bigger would just be worse and that's why everyone stopped at this point. Once the power levels reach 700hp we may need to bore these babies out to 82 or 83mm..
From what I gather if you just bore the openning 3mm the throttle plate may increase 0mm - 1mm. So would you ask for the throttle plate to be increased by 2mm there by increasing the openning by 3mm?
08-18-2006, 12:29 PM
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Well.. typically I always talk about the bore size.. The throttle plate is always sized 1 or 2mm down from that to allow enough airflow to keep it idling. This is the preferred method rather than making the butterfly plate tight up against the wall and then drilling holes in the plate to allow airflow through.
The person who is doing the porting will measure the butterfly plate and the bore before they port it, and then, will keep those measurement proportional based on the new bore size you request.
The person who is doing the porting will measure the butterfly plate and the bore before they port it, and then, will keep those measurement proportional based on the new bore size you request.
Originally Posted by Ghostrider
So if a person wants to have a throttle body ported, should a person reference the an increase of the throttle plate or just the throttle body opening?
From what I gather if you just bore the openning 3mm the throttle plate may increase 0mm - 1mm. So would you ask for the throttle plate to be increased by 2mm there by increasing the openning by 3mm?
From what I gather if you just bore the openning 3mm the throttle plate may increase 0mm - 1mm. So would you ask for the throttle plate to be increased by 2mm there by increasing the openning by 3mm?
08-18-2006, 12:33 PM
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*** UPDATE ***
Guys,
First.. Thanks so much for being so patient during this process.. I try my best to keep everything running along as smoothly as I can.. We really suffered by not being able to schedule the shop time ahead of time so our stuff sat in the queue for a while.. Looks like the first 3 plates will be completed this afternoon.
I changed the design of the plate to make the bottom section of the plate more contoured to the body.. The top remains a square because that provided the most surface area for welding, and looked the cleanest to me.
The porting of the inlets will be completed next week and I will then assemble and ship at least the first 3 units next week.
8 of the 9 TBs are already modified and ready to go.
All of the parts to complete the 9 kits are in my possession and waiting.
Guys,
First.. Thanks so much for being so patient during this process.. I try my best to keep everything running along as smoothly as I can.. We really suffered by not being able to schedule the shop time ahead of time so our stuff sat in the queue for a while.. Looks like the first 3 plates will be completed this afternoon.
I changed the design of the plate to make the bottom section of the plate more contoured to the body.. The top remains a square because that provided the most surface area for welding, and looked the cleanest to me.
The porting of the inlets will be completed next week and I will then assemble and ship at least the first 3 units next week.
8 of the 9 TBs are already modified and ready to go.
All of the parts to complete the 9 kits are in my possession and waiting.
Last edited by vrus; 08-18-2006 at 12:35 PM.
08-18-2006, 12:54 PM
#331
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Originally Posted by vrus
Well.. typically I always talk about the bore size.. The throttle plate is always sized 1 or 2mm down from that to allow enough airflow to keep it idling. This is the preferred method rather than making the butterfly plate tight up against the wall and then drilling holes in the plate to allow airflow through.
The person who is doing the porting will measure the butterfly plate and the bore before they port it, and then, will keep those measurement proportional based on the new bore size you request.
The person who is doing the porting will measure the butterfly plate and the bore before they port it, and then, will keep those measurement proportional based on the new bore size you request.
I did some research and found that the Dinan TB for the 540i is 3mm bigger I figured that would work for mine being that it's a 4.4L V8 and I have 4.3L.
Will most likely do some more checking to see what other TB bore sizes are out there N/A V8's.
*New Info*
Found out that you can go more than 2mm depending on the wall thickness of the TB.
It was also suggested that I get the intake manifold ported also, which means I should do them both at the same time. If I didn't would not doing the manifold negate the gains of a ported TB?
Last edited by Ghostrider; 08-18-2006 at 04:09 PM.
08-18-2006, 06:19 PM
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I picked up the first 3 plates from the machine shop. I revised the design to make it look nicer so that was part of the delay.. I had to make CAD drawing changes and we ran the first three today.
I rounded off the corners at the top.. I think it looks more "finished" this way. I also changed the bottom to allow more clearance for the hard line that runs just behind the inlet. On my car they had to shave down the plate, so I added the 45dg cuts to help clearance.
Note that the opening has not been ported to 80mm yet on the inlet.. That is the stock 74mm opening on that new plate. Once I give it to the porting guy (Monday morning) he will open it up to 80mm and port the inside of the inlet also.
Below are some pics showing the different pieces as well as the completed TB.. I am including new stainless 6x40mm bolts with the kit.. I didnt like those crappy black bolts the factory uses so I bought some nice ARP bolts to go along with this kit. Hope you guys like what you see..
I rounded off the corners at the top.. I think it looks more "finished" this way. I also changed the bottom to allow more clearance for the hard line that runs just behind the inlet. On my car they had to shave down the plate, so I added the 45dg cuts to help clearance.
Note that the opening has not been ported to 80mm yet on the inlet.. That is the stock 74mm opening on that new plate. Once I give it to the porting guy (Monday morning) he will open it up to 80mm and port the inside of the inlet also.
Below are some pics showing the different pieces as well as the completed TB.. I am including new stainless 6x40mm bolts with the kit.. I didnt like those crappy black bolts the factory uses so I bought some nice ARP bolts to go along with this kit.
Hope you guys like what you see..
08-26-2006, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MACHC5
It's going to be "Christmas in August..."
What's the latest work, Vic....
08-27-2006, 02:29 AM
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I was supposed to go by the shop on Friday after work to check on the progress of the first 3... I didnt make it in time.. They were closing at 5pm and I just couldnt get across town in time.
I will check in on Monday morning to see where he is at. They were in the process of being ported (the welding was complete) and were supposed to be ready on Friday. The machine shop promised me the remaining 6 plates would be done this coming week and that the welder would have them in his hand by Wedn.. I dont know how many hours are required to hand port each one, but, I can tell you there is significant porting work between the plates & the inlet.
I'll post an update on Monday once I get to the shop.
BUT, I am sure it will be christmas in August... There is no way it will take them more than 1 week to finish off all 8 kits.
I will check in on Monday morning to see where he is at. They were in the process of being ported (the welding was complete) and were supposed to be ready on Friday. The machine shop promised me the remaining 6 plates would be done this coming week and that the welder would have them in his hand by Wedn.. I dont know how many hours are required to hand port each one, but, I can tell you there is significant porting work between the plates & the inlet.
I'll post an update on Monday once I get to the shop.
BUT, I am sure it will be christmas in August...
There is no way it will take them more than 1 week to finish off all 8 kits.
Originally Posted by MACHC5
Maybe it's going to be "Christmas in September"...!
What's the latest work, Vic....
What's the latest work, Vic....
08-27-2006, 09:51 PM
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It's the least I can do.. I just wish I had more control than I do.. I am at the mercy of the vendors and their schedules.. unfortunately there are so many different little things that have to happen and each step is done by someone different that it takes a while to see the product through the "production line" so to speak. That is changing though...
Originally (when I did my first one) I let my friend (the guy who does the porting) manage and keep on top of each of the people that are involved in completing this kit (the machine shop that does the plate is 1 vendor, the welding shop is a different vendor, and the porting shop is a different vendor).
Because of the long delay in getting our original plates done at the machine shop, I told my friend I need the contact names and #'s of all the people involved so I can directly contact and manage those vendors because the timelines to get responses were unacceptable. Since that time I've been doing the running around picking parts up, dropping parts off, and keeping on top of the vendors.
In any case, I am now dealing directly with these people so when I need info I can get it in a timely manner.
I am also pre-ordering all the parts & machine time ahead of time for each new kit so the time to delivery will be much shorter.
Once again, I apologize that it is taking this long, but, hopefully when you guys finally receive it, it will all be worth it.
Hey James,
Yup.. You are the 7th.. Rock was the 8th and final kit on this batch.
I am also building a Kit #9 which will be on the shelf and ready in case someone else wants one after you guys do your dynos.
Originally (when I did my first one) I let my friend (the guy who does the porting) manage and keep on top of each of the people that are involved in completing this kit (the machine shop that does the plate is 1 vendor, the welding shop is a different vendor, and the porting shop is a different vendor).
Because of the long delay in getting our original plates done at the machine shop, I told my friend I need the contact names and #'s of all the people involved so I can directly contact and manage those vendors because the timelines to get responses were unacceptable. Since that time I've been doing the running around picking parts up, dropping parts off, and keeping on top of the vendors.
In any case, I am now dealing directly with these people so when I need info I can get it in a timely manner.
I am also pre-ordering all the parts & machine time ahead of time for each new kit so the time to delivery will be much shorter.
Once again, I apologize that it is taking this long, but, hopefully when you guys finally receive it, it will all be worth it.
Originally Posted by MACHC5
Thanks for the update, Vic...
Yup.. You are the 7th.. Rock was the 8th and final kit on this batch.
I am also building a Kit #9 which will be on the shelf and ready in case someone else wants one after you guys do your dynos.
Originally Posted by Apple '55
Vic:
Is mine in the batch of 8 that are being finished or is it coming later?
Thanks
Is mine in the batch of 8 that are being finished or is it coming later?
Thanks
08-28-2006, 03:17 PM
#341
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Found out that you can go more than 2mm depending on the wall thickness of the TB.
It was also suggested that I get the intake manifold ported also, which means I should do them both at the same time. If I didn't would not doing the manifold negate the gains of a ported TB?
It was also suggested that I get the intake manifold ported also, which means I should do them both at the same time. If I didn't would not doing the manifold negate the gains of a ported TB?
08-29-2006, 08:54 AM
#342
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Originally Posted by vrus
I picked up the first 3 plates from the machine shop. I revised the design to make it look nicer so that was part of the delay.. I had to make CAD drawing changes and we ran the first three today.
I rounded off the corners at the top.. I think it looks more "finished" this way. I also changed the bottom to allow more clearance for the hard line that runs just behind the inlet. On my car they had to shave down the plate, so I added the 45dg cuts to help clearance.
Note that the opening has not been ported to 80mm yet on the inlet.. That is the stock 74mm opening on that new plate. Once I give it to the porting guy (Monday morning) he will open it up to 80mm and port the inside of the inlet also.
Below are some pics showing the different pieces as well as the completed TB.. I am including new stainless 6x40mm bolts with the kit.. I didnt like those crappy black bolts the factory uses so I bought some nice ARP bolts to go along with this kit. Hope you guys like what you see..
I rounded off the corners at the top.. I think it looks more "finished" this way. I also changed the bottom to allow more clearance for the hard line that runs just behind the inlet. On my car they had to shave down the plate, so I added the 45dg cuts to help clearance.
Note that the opening has not been ported to 80mm yet on the inlet.. That is the stock 74mm opening on that new plate. Once I give it to the porting guy (Monday morning) he will open it up to 80mm and port the inside of the inlet also.
Below are some pics showing the different pieces as well as the completed TB.. I am including new stainless 6x40mm bolts with the kit.. I didnt like those crappy black bolts the factory uses so I bought some nice ARP bolts to go along with this kit.
Hope you guys like what you see..
08-29-2006, 07:00 PM
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I went by the machine shop today to check on the status.. The welding is all complete for the first 3. The remaining 6 are at the welder's shop but I dont know how many are done because they havent been picked up yet.. The porting isnt done.. He promised me they would be done yesterday.. I went by yesterday and they werent done.. Today.. Same story.. Drove all the way over there because I couldnt get him on the other end of the phone...
He needs 1 more day.. He told me to come by tomorrow after work.. Hopefully they will be finished.. Hopefully.
Another idea..... I dont really want to do this because I like to send things out completed, but, for those of you who may have local connections to do this work, maybe I can give you an alternative??? If you like, what I can do is credit back to you guys the costs of the porting and just ship you all the parts and the inlet all welded and you guys can get your own local shops to do the porting. Again, I would rather just get all the work finished for you guys since that's what I committed to do for you, but, if you have better connections than I do for porting, this is an alternative.
I'm doing my best for you guys...
------------------------------------
If you are not going to port match the inlet, dont waste your time porting the TB.. You'll just end up creating turbulence in the airstream and will make things worse instead of better.
Thanks Wayne!
He needs 1 more day.. He told me to come by tomorrow after work.. Hopefully they will be finished.. Hopefully.
Another idea..... I dont really want to do this because I like to send things out completed, but, for those of you who may have local connections to do this work, maybe I can give you an alternative??? If you like, what I can do is credit back to you guys the costs of the porting and just ship you all the parts and the inlet all welded and you guys can get your own local shops to do the porting. Again, I would rather just get all the work finished for you guys since that's what I committed to do for you, but, if you have better connections than I do for porting, this is an alternative.
I'm doing my best for you guys...
------------------------------------
If you are not going to port match the inlet, dont waste your time porting the TB.. You'll just end up creating turbulence in the airstream and will make things worse instead of better.
Originally Posted by Ghostrider
Found out that you can go more than 2mm depending on the wall thickness of the TB.
It was also suggested that I get the intake manifold ported also, which means I should do them both at the same time. If I didn't would not doing the manifold negate the gains of a ported TB?
It was also suggested that I get the intake manifold ported also, which means I should do them both at the same time. If I didn't would not doing the manifold negate the gains of a ported TB?
Originally Posted by Finny
Looks very professional...
08-30-2006, 06:51 AM
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2004 E55
VRUS:
The little extra time to have everything done right is a non-issue for me.
Happy to wait the few extra days to have all done by your shop up there.
Simply let me know the time and I'll get you the address of my K2 shop to send to.
Many Thanks for all of this!
The little extra time to have everything done right is a non-issue for me.
Happy to wait the few extra days to have all done by your shop up there.
Simply let me know the time and I'll get you the address of my K2 shop to send to.
Many Thanks for all of this!
08-30-2006, 02:09 PM
#346
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Originally Posted by vrus
------------------------------------
If you are not going to port match the inlet, dont waste your time porting the TB.. You'll just end up creating turbulence in the airstream and will make things worse instead of better.
If you are not going to port match the inlet, dont waste your time porting the TB.. You'll just end up creating turbulence in the airstream and will make things worse instead of better.
-Ghost
09-02-2006, 01:29 AM
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The time has come boys!!!!!
The first 3 VRP 80mm TB kits are ready!!!!!
The next 6 will be worked on next week (I am making 1 extra kit so it will be ready in case someone else wants one).. As each one is finished I will get it ready for shipping and contact the next person in line. This is the order of shipping:
1) JakPro1
2) GTA23109a
3) MACHC5
4) Kens-E55
5) Finny
6) W211E55
7) Apple '55
8) Rock
JakPro1, GTA23109a, MACHC5: Guys.. Email me: vrus1@hotmail.com and give me the address you want me to ship these things out to.
I will be working tomorrow to find some packaging material to box these things up and will see if I can get them shipped over the weekend.. Being a long weekend, I might not be able to get them out until Tuesday.
Below is a pic to quench your thirsts until they arrive at your door.. (Ignore the red colouring you see on the metal.. That was part of the "marking" die they use when they do the porting.. I will be cleaning them tomorrow to get rid of that).
The first 3 VRP 80mm TB kits are ready!!!!!
The next 6 will be worked on next week (I am making 1 extra kit so it will be ready in case someone else wants one).. As each one is finished I will get it ready for shipping and contact the next person in line. This is the order of shipping:
1) JakPro1
2) GTA23109a
3) MACHC5
4) Kens-E55
5) Finny
6) W211E55
7) Apple '55
8) Rock
JakPro1, GTA23109a, MACHC5: Guys.. Email me: vrus1@hotmail.com and give me the address you want me to ship these things out to.
I will be working tomorrow to find some packaging material to box these things up and will see if I can get them shipped over the weekend.. Being a long weekend, I might not be able to get them out until Tuesday.
Below is a pic to quench your thirsts until they arrive at your door.. (Ignore the red colouring you see on the metal.. That was part of the "marking" die they use when they do the porting.. I will be cleaning them tomorrow to get rid of that).
09-05-2006, 09:57 AM
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Jim & James (JakPro1 & MACHC5),
Your 80mm TB kits are packed and will be dropped off at Fedex tonight. I am sending them air express so you will receive them in 2 days. I will email the tracking # once I get home.
I apologize in advance because I was not able to spend any time polishing them to get rid of the red dye on the adapter plate. It doesnt hurt to have it there and will be hidden by TB once mounted, but the presentation is not what I wanted.. I just ran out of time this weekend and I really dont want to delay shipping this out, so my apologies for that.
I'll let you know what the shipping costs were and you can paypal me the funds later.
KENS-E55: Ken.. You lucked out!! Don (GTA23109a) is out of town for 3 weeks so I can ship you his TB kit and then ship him out one when he returns. Please email me your shipping information and I will get this out tonight for you with the other 2.
NOTE: Everyone who purchased a TB kit, please email me and let me know what your preferred shipping method is. Do you want me to mark the box full value for insurance (duties & taxes if any will be higher)?? Should I mark it no value? Air, Ground.. Etc.. I dont want to be responsible for the package once I give it to Fedex, and, since you guys are picking up the tab for shipping costs, please email me and tell me what I should do.
It might be easier if you just email me your contact telephone # so I can call you and speak to you about this. Do it before 5pm please.
Your 80mm TB kits are packed and will be dropped off at Fedex tonight. I am sending them air express so you will receive them in 2 days. I will email the tracking # once I get home.
I apologize in advance because I was not able to spend any time polishing them to get rid of the red dye on the adapter plate. It doesnt hurt to have it there and will be hidden by TB once mounted, but the presentation is not what I wanted.. I just ran out of time this weekend and I really dont want to delay shipping this out, so my apologies for that.
I'll let you know what the shipping costs were and you can paypal me the funds later.
KENS-E55: Ken.. You lucked out!!
Don (GTA23109a) is out of town for 3 weeks so I can ship you his TB kit and then ship him out one when he returns. Please email me your shipping information and I will get this out tonight for you with the other 2.NOTE: Everyone who purchased a TB kit, please email me and let me know what your preferred shipping method is. Do you want me to mark the box full value for insurance (duties & taxes if any will be higher)?? Should I mark it no value? Air, Ground.. Etc.. I dont want to be responsible for the package once I give it to Fedex, and, since you guys are picking up the tab for shipping costs, please email me and tell me what I should do.
It might be easier if you just email me your contact telephone # so I can call you and speak to you about this. Do it before 5pm please.
09-05-2006, 07:33 PM
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CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
Vic, You the Man... Thanks for the shipping "Heads Up"
"Life is Good.."
MachC5
"Life is Good.."
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09-05-2006, 08:27 PM
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WOO-HOOOOOO!!!! Did I luck-out or what!!VRUS - Many Thanks for making this happen!!
Car goes in the shop in 2 weeks for the TB and the 160 Thermo, and should get another "tweak" on the program when it's all done.
Thanks again!!
