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*** 80mm AMG Throttle Body ***

 
Old 05-08-2006, 10:32 AM
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
Originally Posted by vrus
you would have to still bore the supercharger inlet to 80mm so that it matches the outlet of their adapter.
Intersting Kleemann dont bore out the S/C inlet. Must be a reason for this ... We have to see if the S/C inlet housing can cope with 6mm of extra inlet space... maybe SLcharger's S/C's inlet housing is different... (hope not). How does Kleemanns TB give 30 rwhp when there is still a 74mm restriction though ?

Anyhow vrus I trust in your abilities and patience to get this done and I cannot wait to see the results ... !!

Rgds Steve.

Last edited by stevebez; 05-08-2006 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:45 PM
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2003 E55 AMG
First, I want to clear up a mistake I made in the previous post...

I went back to check some old documents I had, and, Kleemann does in fact supply a new Supercharger inlet housing which is machined to 80mm. The info I was reading originally probably didn't have the specific details of the kit contents and I therefore assumed they didnt have that piece. So, that clears that up...

Now, back to the 80mm TB...

Thanks for your vote of confidence.. Trying to do R&D on your own, and part-time to boot, is always challenging.. Us individuals just don't have the same resources as the tuners out there, so sometimes the littlest things can slow us down...

Take this for example... Below is the pinout data that I was able to extract from the E55 and the early 2003 SL55 with the 80mm TB.

PIN DIRECTION E55 TB 80mm TB
------------------------------------------------------------------
1, Input, Motor -, Motor -
2, Input, Potentiometer -, Potentiometer +
3, Input, Potentiometer +, Potentiometer -
4, Input, Motor +, Motor +
5, Output, Potentiometer 2 Actual, Potentiometer 1 Actual
6, Output, Potentiometer 1 Actual, Potentiometer 2 Actual

Now, here's the kicker.. Reading the above info you can clearly see that 4 of the 6 pins are different between the 2 models, yet, when we back-tracked and looked up the part # for each wiring harness they came out as the SAME PART# for both cars.. How the heck is it possible they put both of these DIFFERENT TBs onto 2 different cars and use the SAME wiring harness??? Doesnt make sense... The electronic schematic diagrams clearly show that the pinouts are what I wrote above, yet, I cant find a different wiring harness Part # for each of the cars... I'm now trying to figure out what to do with this..

Anyone care to make some suggestions??


Originally Posted by stevebez
Intersting Kleemann dont bore out the S/C inlet. Must be a reason for this ... We have to see if the S/C inlet housing can cope with 6mm of extra inlet space... maybe SLcharger's S/C's inlet housing is different... (hope not). How does Kleemanns TB give 30 rwhp when there is still a 74mm restriction though ?

Anyhow vrus I trust in your abilities and patience to get this done and I cannot wait to see the results ... !!

Rgds Steve.

Last edited by vrus; 05-08-2006 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:58 PM
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2003 E55 AMG
I just had an epiphany...

Looking at the graph and after making the post, it hit me... With the AMG 80mm TB they reversed the pins for the Potentiometer + and - and the output values because the stepper motor operates in the opposite direction!!!!!!

This would make sense.. Kleemann has to supply a new wiring harness because they are using a Maybach TB which again has a different pinout arrangement from these 2....

Would that make sense???

Now I need to go find the Maybach TB pinout to confirm... If this is the case, I wont have to worry about any wiring harness changes..
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Old 05-09-2006, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by vrus
I just had an epiphany...

Looking at the graph and after making the post, it hit me... With the AMG 80mm TB they reversed the pins for the Potentiometer + and - and the output values because the stepper motor operates in the opposite direction!!!!!!

This would make sense.. Kleemann has to supply a new wiring harness because they are using a Maybach TB which again has a different pinout arrangement from these 2....

Would that make sense???
Yes - reread the reply to the PM you sent me on the 4th, the part where I mentioned motor polarity.
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:21 AM
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Hey Grumpy,

Thanks! I did confirm this.

The pinout on the SL600/Maybach TB is IDENTICAL to the stock E55 but the motor operates in the reverse direction so Kleeman has to supply a wiring harness to reverse the polarity and make everything work.

This AMG part has the pinouts already reversed so that is why it is plug & play as far as wiring is concerned. I can now cross this one off the list.

I have a couple of more things to verify and then the install can be done.

1) Confirm Y-pipe connector diameter and make sure it will mate up. If not, adapter or new Y-pipe needs to used.
2) Need a reducer for air injection hose at bottom of 80mm TB. Opening on new TB looks to be 5/8". Stock looks to be 3/8".
3) Confirm bolt-pattern between TB and supercharger inlet.

That should do it. Once this short list is confirmed, I can mount it up and do some testing.


Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Yes - reread the reply to the PM you sent me on the 4th, the part where I mentioned motor polarity.
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Old 05-09-2006, 06:54 PM
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not stock.
wow, very cool...love when someone goes "out of the box" and tries a new and innovative mod. good luck and hope the results are well worth all the effort.
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Old 05-09-2006, 08:20 PM
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
This is like watching scientists at work on the verge of a huge breakthrough.

Really exciting stuff.....if anyone can get it to work.....the V CAN.

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Old 05-09-2006, 09:43 PM
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04 E55
Not to put the cart in front of the horse, BUT . . .

WHEN this is successful (notice the optimism!!) what's the liklihood that we'll be able to actually get more of these TBs?? Based on just the responses in this thread there are going to be a dozen or so folks that are going to be chomping at the bit, cash-in-hand wanting the part yesterday. Once word gets out that this HAS WORKED (more optimism!!) on a dozen or so cars (ASSuming we can even get that many TBs) the number of folks looking for them is going to grow even more.

Are most of us SOL or do we have a supplier???
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:57 PM
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I say find someone who can build it to the specs we need. I throttle body is not that complicated and just look at the domestic guys on how they can get this part cheap. Only issue would be the wiring harness IMO
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Old 05-10-2006, 03:31 AM
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
Mad TKD has a point

To have a bunch of these cast / made up is no big deal ... and the more we do the cheaper it will be... there definitely are some guys here in the UK who could do this - and I am sure it will not be nearly as much as $2k per unit. All we do then is swap out the stock electronics harness.... and off you go.

Is this feasible vrus?

Last edited by stevebez; 05-10-2006 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 05-10-2006, 05:31 PM
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2003 E55 AMG
Thanks! So far it is looking like all this work will be worth it.

Originally Posted by OJwerks
wow, very cool...love when someone goes "out of the box" and tries a new and innovative mod. good luck and hope the results are well worth all the effort.
Jak,

You are too kind!!! I just wish I had more free time to work on this stuff.... Things would get done alot quicker. Damn business is always getting in the way..

Originally Posted by Jakpro1
This is like watching scientists at work on the verge of a huge breakthrough.

Really exciting stuff.....if anyone can get it to work.....the V CAN.
First, thanks for the optimism! I like positive energy.

As for availability, I was told these are very hard to come by, BUT, I don't know the exact numbers yet. I gave them instructions to put aside whatever inventory they had for now until I could determine if it would work. I will see if I can buy them all and get a reduced price on them.


Originally Posted by GTA23109a
Not to put the cart in front of the horse, BUT . . .

WHEN this is successful (notice the optimism!!) what's the liklihood that we'll be able to actually get more of these TBs?? Based on just the responses in this thread there are going to be a dozen or so folks that are going to be chomping at the bit, cash-in-hand wanting the part yesterday. Once word gets out that this HAS WORKED (more optimism!!) on a dozen or so cars (ASSuming we can even get that many TBs) the number of folks looking for them is going to grow even more.

Are most of us SOL or do we have a supplier???
This would be my last resort.. If this current AMG part becomes unavailable, I think it would be easier to buy the SL600 TB for $1,200 and get a CNC adapter made up to mate to the supercharger's inlet. If you've got 10 or 11 people that want it, then, the cost of making the special part wouldnt be too bad. You would need that and a special wiring harness made up to reverse the pinout information (or you could just modify the stock wiring harness you have -- now that I provided the pinout data, it is easy enough).


Originally Posted by Mad TKD
I say find someone who can build it to the specs we need. I throttle body is not that complicated and just look at the domestic guys on how they can get this part cheap. Only issue would be the wiring harness IMO
Steve,

Not sure. Like I said above.. This would be my last resort. I would assume this could be done, but I have no idea what the costs would be or if it is even cost effective.

Originally Posted by stevebez
Mad TKD has a point

To have a bunch of these cast / made up is no big deal ... and the more we do the cheaper it will be... there definitely are some guys here in the UK who could do this - and I am sure it will not be nearly as much as $2k per unit. All we do then is swap out the stock electronics harness.... and off you go.

Is this feasible vrus?
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Old 05-10-2006, 05:45 PM
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2003 E55 AMG
More info just came in...

It is confirmed that the SL55 with the enlarged 80mm TB also has 2 other components which are different Part #s to our standard cars.

The Y-pipe is in fact an enlarged part and is different to our cars.. I couldnt get a picture of it, but it will be needed OR a silicon hose adapter will be needed to tie it up to the new TB.

Also, there is an AMG part # for the 80mm supercharger inlet piece (this is probably the same piece that Kleemann supplies with their kit). This would be needed if it turns out that this bigger TB has different mounting holes to the stock one. If the mounting holes are the same, then the stock one can be bored out and this piece can be omitted (I think this is correct.. unless the wall thickness is just not enough for it to be opened up to 80mm)..
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:03 PM
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Is there anything running through the stock adapter plate that would prevent it from being bored to 80mm?? I thought it was literally just a plate with the correct holes in it.

Do you have any idea if the availability of the larger AMG plate and y-pipe is any better than the TBs?? If we can at least get the y-pipes, then we should be able to substitute v12 TBs provided we can sort the wiring out, correct??

As for getting custom adapter plates, that shouldn't be too hard at all. The only trick will be finding someone who won't require a huge minimum production run. I have a guy in Bakersfield, CA who has done odd, one-off projects for my brother and I (he owns a CNC shop) but he's very hesitant to do the small-run jobs like this. It's nearly impossible to break even on them, let alone make any money, from what I understand.
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:17 PM
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do you have a photo of the plate and spec, i got a guy out here i could probably have make one. won't cost anything.
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:58 PM
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I don't think there is anything running through it, but without removing the stock piece from the car, it would be hard to say for sure.

It's actually not a plate if you want to be exact.. It's actually the mouth/inlet of the supercharger. Below is a picture of the different components that make up the whole supercharger assembly. The mouth is Part #20 on the list. This is the piece that has an opening of 80mm for the early SL55 we were discussing. Our cars have the exact same piece, but only in 74mm opening. (Remember, I still dont know 100% if the mounting holes are the same or not.. I would assume they are, but I am not sure).

As for the availability, these 2 pieces are also both special order from Germany only and only with a valid VIN #. I have access to order these things but I have to ask what quantities are available on the shelf.

As for the V12 TBs, my research on them revealed the following info:

1) They are meant to be mounted vertically (with the inlet of the TB pointing up) and as such have a completely different mounting mechanism and bolt arrangement. You would have to create a CNC adapter plate that mounts BETWEEN the TB and the supercharger's mouth/inlet (Part #20 below). The TB itself is cheaper than the AMG 80mm but requires more parts to make it work with our supercharged cars.

2) You would have to get a piece of silicon hose (Samco or other) and use it to mate the Y-pipe to the TB.

3) You would have to reverse 4 of the 6 pins in the wiring harness to accommodate the motor's polarity.

So, if the AMG 80mm TB cannot be bought in enough quantities, then the above 3 things have to be done in order to make the V12 TB work. The CNC plate would be a relatively small piece whose only purpose is to adapt the mounting points.




Originally Posted by GTA23109a
Is there anything running through the stock adapter plate that would prevent it from being bored to 80mm?? I thought it was literally just a plate with the correct holes in it.

Do you have any idea if the availability of the larger AMG plate and y-pipe is any better than the TBs?? If we can at least get the y-pipes, then we should be able to substitute v12 TBs provided we can sort the wiring out, correct??

As for getting custom adapter plates, that shouldn't be too hard at all. The only trick will be finding someone who won't require a huge minimum production run. I have a guy in Bakersfield, CA who has done odd, one-off projects for my brother and I (he owns a CNC shop) but he's very hesitant to do the small-run jobs like this. It's nearly impossible to break even on them, let alone make any money, from what I understand.
Unfortunately I don't.. Kleemann provides one with their TB kit but I have never seen one. It wouldnt be too hard to make a CAD drawing of one if the TB and mouth of the supercharger were both off the car in your hands though.

Originally Posted by eride
do you have a photo of the plate and spec, i got a guy out here i could probably have make one. won't cost anything.
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Old 05-10-2006, 08:03 PM
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Could one order, part #20 and the 80mm T/Body then take them to a machine shop and make it happen..?

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Old 05-10-2006, 09:25 PM
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would this work with a 210 e55?
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:46 PM
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Vic, great write up and thanks for sharing this information. I was hoping it was going to be a no brainer bolt-on but it never seems to be that simple. Anyway, I look forward to your impression of this modification once your work is complete.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:47 PM
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Yikes . . . that adapter plate is considerably more complex looking than I had thought. It looks like either porting our existing pieces or, even better, sourcing the factory 80mm AMG part is going to be the "easy" solution.
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:33 AM
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Not sure.. You have to ask someone who is knowledgeable in machining parts. To me, I am not interested. I want the original parts on my car if possible.

Part #20 is available for roughly $300 so it probably would be better to just buy the original AMG part (which I ordered).

Remember, when you take your car into the dealership for service, all of these parts in this kit that I am putting together will be ORIGINAL AMG PARTS. The warranty will not be voided because they cannot be distinguished from the stock parts on the car. If you put a V12TB with a special adapter and different wiring harness, it will be clearly noticeable.



Originally Posted by MACHC5
Could one order, part #20 and the 80mm T/Body then take them to a machine shop and make it happen..?

MachC5
No. I don't think it will. I'm not 100% sure because I dont know enough about the W210 to tell you with complete certainty.

Originally Posted by Ashkan's C280
would this work with a 210 e55?
It didn't start off as a full plug and play because I am learning and finding things out as I go... But at this stage, it looks like it is going to turn out to be a no-brainer bolt-on once I am done. You wont have to cut, hack or slice anything on your car..

I've ordered all the pieces which are authentic AMG parts to make this 80mm TB work. Basically, when I am done, this will be a complete bolt-on, plug and play TB upgrade with all original AMG parts. It will consist of: 80mm Y-pipe, 80mm TB, 80mm Supercharger inlet piece, 2 metal gaskets.

Originally Posted by Rock
Vic, great write up and thanks for sharing this information. I was hoping it was going to be a no brainer bolt-on but it never seems to be that simple. Anyway, I look forward to your impression of this modification once your work is complete.

Don't call it an adapter.. it's really the supercharger inlet.. When I used the word adapter, I assumed something would have to be created out of aluminum to adapt the mounting holes on the TB to the supercharger similar to what Kleemann had to do with the V12TT TB. Now that I found an original AMG part to replace the stock one, no need to fabricate one anymore.

I ordered the part just in case I take it all apart and find that this new one wont mount up. I think using the AMG parts is a better solution because everything will look stock once the upgrade is complete.

Originally Posted by GTA23109a
Yikes . . . that adapter plate is considerably more complex looking than I had thought. It looks like either porting our existing pieces or, even better, sourcing the factory 80mm AMG part is going to be the "easy" solution.
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:52 AM
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
vrus,

I remember you mention before that later models had their TB's epoxied and not bolted to some thing or other - would the upgrade you have in mind still work with these models?
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:08 PM
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Steve,

Considering that this will be a replacement TB to your original, it wont matter. You can take your stock TB and put it in the closet if you want..

Originally Posted by stevebez
vrus,

I remember you mention before that later models had their TB's epoxied and not bolted to some thing or other - would the upgrade you have in mind still work with these models?
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
Use it as an ashtray ?

But hey who smokes these days anymore ?

Yippee!
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Old 05-11-2006, 03:33 PM
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More info...

80mm Supercharger inlet and 80mm Y-pipe on the way from Germany. Will have them by Wednesday next week.. Will take pics of these parts when they arrive.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashkan's C280
would this work with a 210 e55?
The TB itself will work but the rest of the parts that goes with it (inlet, plates etc..) would have to be totally custom made.
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