E55 RUSS

Guys... Why no one offers Smaller Compressor Pullies for our cars ???

This way we can run more BOOST...and make even more out of our POWER out of our S/C's !!!

I have been told by my tuner that he can make one for ME...This is probably how Evotech or MKB get their boost of 1.3-1.35 level...

Cause with biggest ASP pully I run about 1.1 boost with modified exhaust and stock boost is 0.9....So those who have ASP pullies without Headers( which drop compressor pressure by 0.2) run about 1.3 BOOST and their manifolds temps are even higher, which is obviously not good...Since stock e55 already have high manifolds temos around 830 C and with Kleemann header the temps drop to 760 and so far no one had any probs...With highest boost their temps even higher the 830 but they run OK...

So increasing boost to 1.3 on E55 by installing smaller compressor pully with Headers, tearetically should be OK, if those with ASP pullies and stock headers are OK

We have changed the Kompressor pully on Kleemann S/C 210 E55 and the boost was rasied by 0.3 or 0.4 to 0.9....

So I can make like another 30-50 HP and some torgues by increasing the boost using smaller compressor pully...

Mkb 680 hp with 1.35 boost has some internal modfication...rods bearing, heads etc...

Would E55 motor with jet hot coated Kleemann style headers with NO cats (ven less boost pressure) hold more boost without modifying the internals ???

Expert please chime inn as well...Thanks

KamzAmg

good question.... and i would love some answers too...
but the guys at kleemann told me a while back the reason they dont do it is that they wont be able to provide the warranty they provide now... which i guess makes it a less reliable thing to do??
like i said... i wish i knew.

-K

E55 RUSS

Kleemann offers the smallest pullies for E55...of course for a reason but theire other tuners who have diff aproach...

Ted Baldwin

.............As far as I know Kleemann does not offer a smaller s/c pulley for the W211 E55. No one does. The reason is that the s/c clutch is integrated into the oem pulley design.

Ted

E55 RUSS

So you say its impossile to make smmaler S/C pully or to use this system without the clutch ???

Does Kleemann S/C has clutch system ???

mclarenm8d

Because of the ball bearings being close to the edge of the outside ring on the pulley unit, there isn't much thickness on the pulley ring to machine it down much. Since you are interested in this stuff, I recommend that you check out how the ball bearings and other asundery bits are put together in the S/C clutch assembly. Mine failed, so I have first hand experience with what some of the parts look like when the assembly is apart :-).

Use the system without the clutch - my thoughts on this is to either spoof the MAP into thinking the car is at 30% load all the time (but this creates a host of other problems that I don't have enough money to want to risk), or create this effect by actually pre-loading the bearings in the clutch assembly so that the S/C is spinning closer to the pulley ring speed when the ECU thinks the clutch is disengaged. Just having the S/C engaged creates a load on the engine that is close to 30%, so there is probably an equilibrium point.

OzE55

I think the biggest problem will be belt slip on a smaller SC pulley.
On one hand you will be trying to rotate the SC faster but via a smaller pulley with less belt contact.
I understand even the larger crankshaft pulleys can cause belt slip on the SC pulley without tensioner adjustments - see Finny's post on the tensioner he designed.

ChicagoX

+1

I would look down the path of changing the internal gear ratio (see Finny's thread) and leaving the clutch assembly alone.

jason427

I would think the biggest problem with this type of blower would be heat soak. We need a Kenne Bell 2.8 kit for our cars

Finny

Interesting subject E55 RUSS. Yeah, don't bother with a small pulley because it will slip like crazy.

Another thing to remember is this style of charger is only efficient to around 18 psi and anything over this amount becomes counter productive as efficiency goes down dramatically. Excessive heat is generated to annoy the computer and parasitical problems develop sucking more power than it can produce.

There is a number of problems that arise when we try to increase boost.

Firstly, increasing the crank pulley size "will" in some form or another slip due to the limited pulley to belt contact area and the bottle neck in the s/c plumbing causing more resistance which will indirectly cause the air fuel to run rich and increased fuel consumption. Some may say they haven't encountered this problem which can be prevented by using the 160 or 165 jobs with the fuel tables and parameters manipulated in software as a quick band aid solution.

Secondly, the stock inter-cooler core and manifold is to restrictive which is actually sized correctly for the stock specs but counteractive when trying to increase "flow" which causes more mechanical stress on the belt and pulleys.

Marginal gain can be achieved by pulley and software manipulation but were still not capitalizing on the 55's full potential.

Solution? There are a few that will be available soon through VRP depending on your application and how far you want to go. You can add the following in stages.

The first device is an Adjustable Auxiliary Tensioner kit which I first developed to solve the slipping problem but only worked well with the smaller variety pulleys. This is a entry level solution suitable for individuals who have the smaller pulley types. It works by adding extra tension to the existing stock tensioner. This device works very effectively with the next size up over the stock type pulley types.

Next up is the Pulley Wrap kit which increases the belt contact area on the crank and charger by altering the course of the stock belt position. All components are high quality stainless steel manufactured by Rob Black engineering Australia who is certified to produce aircraft components. The extra pulleys supplied in the kit are made to the highest standards by Billetflow USA. This kit combined with the the above tensioner kit "totally" eliminates belt slippage all the way up to the biggest pulleys available in the market.

I wouldn't go through all this R&D without sourcing the "best" possible large pulley solution that will help protect the engine with all this extra power gained. Well, I have found the ultimate big boost pulley solution. This one has interchangeable front pulleys available in different sizes if you choose but for the moment the first batch will be 175mm. This balancer will absorb up to 1500hp of torsional vibration without using the expensive fluid method. This new technology is fully patented and exceeds SFI standards and does all the other stuff that expensive fluid types offer or better. I won't go into details now but Victor will elaborate on all these new solutions latter. So get on his case... Ha Ha..

Finally for the hard core enthusiast and still in development are SLR like coolers with altered plumbing and accessories to maximize the full flow potential when used with the above bits and ported heads. If you follow my rebuild thread you will actually see how it all comes together until it gets thrown on the dyno.

My two cents worth...

E55 RUSS

Good points...Our tuners have made smaller S/C for SL55 and it works...but now sure how well...

Kleemann working as well...

Finny so is there any kit that can solve all our problems with Lysholm S/C on our cars ??? and you say there is not more possibilities to make more boost via pullies without sacrificing S/C efficiancy ???

Victor can you eloborate on what Finny mentioned earlier about S/C...

How then MKB and Evotech get boost pressure to 1.3-1.35 ???

Finny

1.3 = 18.85 psi The most efficient zone.

Finny

Kits solves slipping problem.

Big pulley protects crank.

Coolers and Plumbing increase s/c efficiency by removing the bottle neck which increases Flow, PSI and Reduces air temperature to chambers.

vrus

Ahh Finny... You had to let the cat out of the bag.... LOL...

Mike: Finny & I have been looking into belt slip, pulley design, and SLR intercoolers for a while now (we've alluded to all of this before in small bits)..

I'll leave the other parts alone for now and just Concentrate on the crankshaft pulley... I'll give you some details..

We set out a few months ago to do research on how to make the "Ultimate" Crank pulley. We actually contacted Fluidamper and some other manufacturers to try and find a pulley that met certain requirements we were after.

1) To support 1000hp (we have high goals for these engines)..

2) We were looking for a unique 2-piece design so that we could swap out the front section and change the effective overall size of the S/C drive section without having to unbolt the actual crankshaft pulley from the car..

3) To ensure full torsional dampening.. The pulley needed to absorb all the torsional excitations created in the crankshaft. The order & magnitude of the excitations vary with RPM, stroke crankshaft length and reciprocating mass.. Because of this its not as simple as just machining something and slapping it together. The pulley has to be "tuned" to absorb these vibrations.

After discussing a few options we had it narrowed down to Fluidamper and another company who holds a worldwide patent on an elastometric bonding technology.

Anyone can call up Fluidamper and purchase blanks and have them machined to your specs.. But, after seeing the cost of the blanks from Fluidamper and finding some disturbing data about fluid based dampeners, we decided to go with this other company.

We found that with the fluid based dampener's there were an even number of praising stories, and horror stories. A 50/50 split of good and bad was just not a good ratio and made us uncomfortable so we decided to steer clear of the Fluidamper solution.. Here is a quick example of what I mean: http://enginebuilder.ca/Fluid_Damper.htm .. if you search the boards, you will find alot more horror stories... Not for me.. Thank you...

Saying all that, this new crank pulley that we have will be 175mm to start. It
holds an exclusive patended design, and exceeds SFI (USA) requirements..

Oh yeah.. Here's the kicker: It comes with a lifetime warranty even for RACING USE... a world first!!!

I will show more data and details once we have the belt wrap kick, aux tensioner, and new crank pulley mounted on our test engine on the stand.. We'll take some pics while its on the stand so everyone can see exactly what this solution looks like..

This will be the ultimate setup to ensure that there is no beltslip. No point in having these huge crank pullies if you dont address the belt slip issues.. Already the system is taxed and cannot keep the belt down.. This needs to be addressed for a proper FULL solution.

Here is a quick pic of the pulley design:

ChicagoX

Everything looks awesome, VRUS !

I have a Q about the Fluidampr: while I'm sure your solution is the atom bomb, what negative steered you away from them? I've used their products on my domestic 'rods and they offered me a lifetime warranty.

BTW, your 2-piece design is sweet.

E55 RUSS

Thank for all the details VRUS and Finny...

Will you have this anti-belt slipping system for any diameter pullies, so people who already have Kleemann, Renntech or ASP pullies can fi[ this belt slipping issues ???

Also...another thing that I found out..that one guy here is actually running smaller Kompressor pully on his e55 and it works OK so far...he is faster then stock E55...

So I am going to find more what he did and speak with people who done this kit for him...

If I have ASP pully and get smaller Kompressor pully this kit wont work or it will work but wont be efficient, what problems would I face ???

Would everything work without a S/C clutch or Pully can be made to fit existing clutch ???

rflow306

You didn't have a problem because it's not a bad a balancer. They are typically used on engines that spin <=7000 rpm with out a problem. For anything above that I have always used ATI. Some crank manufacturers don't approve of Fluidampr for use on their cranks but nine times out of ten it has alot more to due with marketing. If i'm not mistaken they were also not approved for use in Nascar.

vrus

One of the main things was that searching online I found people who posted very negative comments about them and others who raved about them. That didnt make me feel too comfortable.

The other point was that all of our requirements were met by using the elastometric 2-piece pulley design. The Fluidamper solution was a much higher price point and didnt provide any additional benefit.

In the end we got everything we were after for a lower price. What does that mean?? It means we can provide these crank pullies for the same price or better of what Kleemann/Renntech/ASP and others charge for reworked stock dampners with welded or pressed on outer rings.

My goal in anything I do is to try and find a top-notch solution at the most cost-effective price point.

I know there are people who have had their cars run pig rich on the dyno and just dont know why or think the ECU is not tuned properly.. 9 out of 10 times, its running pig rich because the belt is oscillating up and down and is slipping like crazy.

This is a complete solution that addresses all of the problems and gives you room to grow. Once you buy this crank pulley, you never have to replace it again.. You can experiment with different outter rings to change boost and you wont have to remove it off the crank.


There are 2 "stages" to help the belt slip issues.. 1 is an auxiliary tensioner system which like Finny said, works good on stock or slightly larger pullies.. The next step up from that is a proper Belt wrap kit which introduces some extra pullies and changes the routing of the crank belt.. The end result is increasing the belt wrap area significantly over stock setup.

All of this will be much clearer once we post the pics on the engine stand.

vrus

Oh yeah.. forgot to mention.. most of the parts to make the kits are already here.. We are waiting for the pullies from BilletFlow which are already enroute..

E55 RUSS

SO will any of those kits will work with ASP pullies or any other ???

vrus

YES. The tensioner upgrade and pulley wrap kits work with any configuration.. it just means a different belt length is required.

E55 RUSS

Victor...So this will increase the efficincy of our S/C and our power will be more constant ???

Basically we will be able to make more power across the power band especially on TOP where it the most belt slipping yes ???

and will this will enable ME to run more boost like 1.3-1.35 where is Finny said our S/C afre most efficient ???


Can I buy this along with TB ???...btw I missed you post in "TB thread"...now its covered

sorry for so many Q...I am excited

E55 RUSS

Anyways will it be safe to run 1.3 boost with VRUS anti-slipping kit and TB on our cars ???


As I mentioned on top...those stock E55s with ASP pullies are having that boost and havent heard any problems yet...

SSM AMG

V whats the status on the kit?