Supercharger for AMG 63s (M156)
08-08-2007, 07:19 AM
#26
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: orange county NY
Posts: 1,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'05 C55(sold)'05 E55(sold)'06 911C4S(sold)'06 ML350 '06 CLS55(sold),buncha slo bikes
[QUOTE=MRAMG1;2359012]
Geez,my eyes hurt after reading this
Over the last several weeks I have had a number of 63 owners expressing interest in forced induction for their cars.
Hello Vadium:
I can you you from over 10 years of experience with KeneBell that Whipplechargers area WONDERFUL product. I road raced my 91 stang with a whipple for well over 10 years and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT.
Now I did break alot of trannies
But that was do to the amazing low end boost that they provided.
Keep in mind that while they are extremely efficient blower, Meaning lowest rise in temp when compressing the air, PV=NRT, you REALLY want to look into a intercooler since the 63 motor has the 11.3 compression ratio.
Also, almost ALL engine tuners well agree, you need atleast 5 pounds of boost to see real world gains form it.
Keep the GREAT ideas and info coming please
HEck, you may even get me convinced to look at a 63 series if your idea pans out as NOTHING gives you low end torque like a WHIPPLE
Good luck and SEE YEAH
Hello Vadium:
I can you you from over 10 years of experience with KeneBell that Whipplechargers area WONDERFUL product. I road raced my 91 stang with a whipple for well over 10 years and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT.
Now I did break alot of trannies
But that was do to the amazing low end boost that they provided.
Keep in mind that while they are extremely efficient blower, Meaning lowest rise in temp when compressing the air, PV=NRT, you REALLY want to look into a intercooler since the 63 motor has the 11.3 compression ratio.
Also, almost ALL engine tuners well agree, you need atleast 5 pounds of boost to see real world gains form it.
Keep the GREAT ideas and info coming please
HEck, you may even get me convinced to look at a 63 series if your idea pans out as NOTHING gives you low end torque like a WHIPPLE
Good luck and SEE YEAH
08-08-2007, 01:21 PM
#27
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
S600TT, R350
count me in Have you done any test yet? 70hp to the wheels sounds great. I have headers and ecu by Renntech. Trans up grade and rear end comming soon . Any price yet and who will install? Will it fit with stock hood. By the way any Ideas or thoughts on rear end choice?
No pricing yet, it will be a complete kit with instructions. Any competent shop should be able to do it. And of course we will do the installs here.
The goal is to make kit fit without any major cutting or welding.
Vadim sounds like a nice project but ... where u goona put it ??? that engine bay looks pretty tight - especially on top.
I would put in some shorter con rods to drop CR to sub 10 and you can go to town on boost ... mbe this is not necesary given the VVT top end ... dunno.
Personally I think the 63 has reasonably good grunt low down and nicely free revving ... Perhaps the SC will reduce its free revving nature? I think the motor is more suited to TT setup than a blower and space / plumbing wise might be easier to get together.
Also it seems this is the way MB will go too ... so OEM parts should be available off the shelf down the road
Just my 2c....
I would put in some shorter con rods to drop CR to sub 10 and you can go to town on boost ... mbe this is not necesary given the VVT top end ... dunno.
Personally I think the 63 has reasonably good grunt low down and nicely free revving ... Perhaps the SC will reduce its free revving nature? I think the motor is more suited to TT setup than a blower and space / plumbing wise might be easier to get together.
Also it seems this is the way MB will go too ... so OEM parts should be available off the shelf down the road
Just my 2c....
Also by making the kit as intake manifold replacement, it should work on all 63 chassis, greatly expanding client base.
08-08-2007, 02:34 PM
#28
Almost a Member!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: newport coast, 92657
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2007 E63
thats not expensive......
08-09-2007, 04:55 AM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
Doesnt the intake manifold have variable length intake chambers or something ... if u pull that off ecu might go loopy ... but I understand where u coming from ... if the system is a bolt on to replace the intake manifold (assuming its ok with the ecu etc) then sounds OK. The CR still worries me tho ... the 55 is only 9:1 !
08-09-2007, 07:44 AM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
Great project, Vadim. It would be awesome to see some *63s with blowers on them. Have you talked to Jim about using alky injection? That would provide some chemical intercooling and may allow you to run more boost.
On my LS6, which is ~10.5:1 compression, I ran 6psi boost and went from 388rwhp to 544rwhp with a centrifugal blower. I know the 6.2L in the *63 is a little higher comp, but with an efficient chamber design you may be able to run as high as 6 or 7 psi with the right tune.
Can't wait to hear your results!
On my LS6, which is ~10.5:1 compression, I ran 6psi boost and went from 388rwhp to 544rwhp with a centrifugal blower. I know the 6.2L in the *63 is a little higher comp, but with an efficient chamber design you may be able to run as high as 6 or 7 psi with the right tune.
Can't wait to hear your results!
08-09-2007, 10:45 AM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,725
Received 558 Likes
on
368 Posts
'19 E63S, ‘16 CLS63 RIP, '09 E63 Gone, '06 M5 Gone, '97 Supra TT Gone
I don't think the tranny will blow with 70 more whp bro, but I do think that if you push it much farther than that you'll see gears start to slip.
08-09-2007, 11:10 AM
#33
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: orange county NY
Posts: 1,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'05 C55(sold)'05 E55(sold)'06 911C4S(sold)'06 ML350 '06 CLS55(sold),buncha slo bikes
According to Kleeman,the 7G trans was continuously load tested at the factory for 560ft/lbs,with momentary loads of 756ft/lbs w/out failure.Thats 300ft/bs more then stock,so me thinks it should be fine if Kleeman thinks it will too
08-09-2007, 01:32 PM
#34
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
S600TT, R350
Steve: Here is the cut-away of the engine. It has twin 70 mm TBs mounted under the intake manifold (red) and secondary butterflies (blue) that open up shorter runners at around 4000 rpm for more top end power.
I have several ideas on how to integrate this into the SC systems.
Wayne: Like I mentioned in the first post - my goal is for modest HP/TQ increase.
With Stage I, at 3-4 psi, I am expecting ~ 500HP/450TQ at the wheels, which compares with Stage III 55s, about 100 lbs. less TQ though.
At this amount of boost a simple air/water intercooler will be able to function very well. I do not want to rely upon any additional injections, be it methanol/water or NOS. It adds complexity and will depend upon final user to refill.
With Stage II, which will require fitting 9:1 CR pistons and strengthening
transmission, 8-9 psi should give us over 600HP/550TQ at the wheels.
I have several ideas on how to integrate this into the SC systems.
Wayne: Like I mentioned in the first post - my goal is for modest HP/TQ increase.
With Stage I, at 3-4 psi, I am expecting ~ 500HP/450TQ at the wheels, which compares with Stage III 55s, about 100 lbs. less TQ though.
At this amount of boost a simple air/water intercooler will be able to function very well. I do not want to rely upon any additional injections, be it methanol/water or NOS. It adds complexity and will depend upon final user to refill.
With Stage II, which will require fitting 9:1 CR pistons and strengthening
transmission, 8-9 psi should give us over 600HP/550TQ at the wheels.
08-09-2007, 02:05 PM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
That's what I'm talkin 'bout!Suddenly the C63 is at the top of my list for my next car. You're the man Vadim. 600 to the wheels is serious power. And I know that the tranny issues have been mentioned before, but at that level of power do you think the tranny will have to be swapped or worked on?
Do you think nitrous oxide or methanol injection will work on a stage II?
08-09-2007, 02:16 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
That's what I'm talkin 'bout!Suddenly the C63 is at the top of my list for my next car. You're the man Vadim. 600 to the wheels is serious power. And I know that the tranny issues have been mentioned before, but at that level of power do you think the tranny will have to be swapped or worked on?
Do you think nitrous oxide or methanol injection will work on a stage II?
I am still concerned about trans failures and engine failures. It's absolutely possible to supercharge high compression motors but it's still risky and there are going to be people who blow their **** up and will have zero warranty to fix it. It's a risky proposition and one that I'd have to see a lot of trouble-free data/proof (not theory) to buy into. Fortunately, Vadim is a guy I'd trust to build a system like this.
What I really don't understand is the appeal of a $100k 63 car then adding $15k+++ to supercharge it to give you what essentially a bolt on 55 car gives you. I understand doing it to an S63, or a new CL63, but the E/CLS aren't even new body styles. But hey, to each his own.
-m
08-09-2007, 02:38 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
My friend be careful. When you bring in engine internals you will quickly see that price goes up with enthusiasm. You can make 600rwhp with a lot of cars out there, even an E500 if you wanted to - the main reason people don't is because of cost.
I am still concerned about trans failures and engine failures. It's absolutely possible to supercharge high compression motors but it's still risky and there are going to be people who blow their **** up and will have zero warranty to fix it. It's a risky proposition and one that I'd have to see a lot of trouble-free data/proof (not theory) to buy into. Fortunately, Vadim is a guy I'd trust to build a system like this.
What I really don't understand is the appeal of a $100k 63 car then adding $15k+++ to supercharge it to give you what essentially a bolt on 55 car gives you. I understand doing it to an S63, or a new CL63, but the E/CLS aren't even new body styles. But hey, to each his own.
-m
I am still concerned about trans failures and engine failures. It's absolutely possible to supercharge high compression motors but it's still risky and there are going to be people who blow their **** up and will have zero warranty to fix it. It's a risky proposition and one that I'd have to see a lot of trouble-free data/proof (not theory) to buy into. Fortunately, Vadim is a guy I'd trust to build a system like this.
What I really don't understand is the appeal of a $100k 63 car then adding $15k+++ to supercharge it to give you what essentially a bolt on 55 car gives you. I understand doing it to an S63, or a new CL63, but the E/CLS aren't even new body styles. But hey, to each his own.
-m
Very true...I'm still mostly interested in going for a black Z06 with some bolt-ons, but a 500+whp benz sedan (with the looks of the new C class) is very tempting, plus the daily drivability and comfort is there. Still, to me there is nothing like the Z06. But I have a few months...we'll see
My thoughts on the C63 are that it will be right around $70,000. Add $15,000 and for $85,000 you have an extremely quick and beautiful car that has top of the line handling (for a Benz).
08-09-2007, 06:24 PM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my garage
Posts: 8,546
Received 1,065 Likes
on
854 Posts
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
A Whipple supercharger would be cool but I don't think it would be a good idea on the 63. A rear mount turbo system, like the STS ones, would give you all the power you wanted and would be much easier to adapt and return the car to stock. Not to mention, the price point would be much lower than having to custom fabricate everything that would be needed with the Whipple.
08-09-2007, 11:16 PM
#39
Out Of Control!!
A Whipple supercharger would be cool but I don't think it would be a good idea on the 63. A rear mount turbo system, like the STS ones, would give you all the power you wanted and would be much easier to adapt and return the car to stock. Not to mention, the price point would be much lower than having to custom fabricate everything that would be needed with the Whipple.
08-09-2007, 11:40 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my garage
Posts: 8,546
Received 1,065 Likes
on
854 Posts
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
http://www.ststurbo.com/ You could do your own system without too much trouble. The only hard part would be to tune your engine management system. You could just run a boost sensitive rising rate fuel pressure regulator but you would be limited on boost due to timing unless you were able to control your timing.
08-10-2007, 07:24 AM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
08-10-2007, 01:59 PM
#44
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: orange county NY
Posts: 1,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'05 C55(sold)'05 E55(sold)'06 911C4S(sold)'06 ML350 '06 CLS55(sold),buncha slo bikes
Well,after poking around on Kenne Bell's website count me out.There is no way in hell I'm paying $7000.00 for a S/C to get 70hp.By the time your done having the car tuned properly,having the ECU flashed&whatnot your looking at $10,000.
That $7k price was for a GM or Ford,I'm almost positive it will be even more because it's for a M-B
That $7k price was for a GM or Ford,I'm almost positive it will be even more because it's for a M-B
08-10-2007, 02:43 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,725
Received 558 Likes
on
368 Posts
'19 E63S, ‘16 CLS63 RIP, '09 E63 Gone, '06 M5 Gone, '97 Supra TT Gone
Very true...I'm still mostly interested in going for a black Z06 with some bolt-ons, but a 500+whp benz sedan (with the looks of the new C class) is very tempting, plus the daily drivability and comfort is there. Still, to me there is nothing like the Z06. But I have a few months...we'll see
My thoughts on the C63 are that it will be right around $70,000. Add $15,000 and for $85,000 you have an extremely quick and beautiful car that has top of the line handling (for a Benz).
My thoughts on the C63 are that it will be right around $70,000. Add $15,000 and for $85,000 you have an extremely quick and beautiful car that has top of the line handling (for a Benz).
08-10-2007, 04:11 PM
#46
MBWorld Fanatic!
Funny you bring that up, I was talking to Arvy about my future car last night (1am after multiple street races lol).
I think E55's are beautiful but I'm a young guy and I want something a bit more sportier. I'm used to the Benz coupe so I like the luxury, style, and class. But I'm retarded and have the need for speed, plus I love racing. So, I think he convinced me (or I convinced myself
) to go with a CLS55. I can roll in style, spank anything that comes my way, and waste all my hard earned money on mods . I know AI Design right by my house does Kleeman mods and theres a few places in LI that do RennTech, so I know I'd be in Heaven with that car. Of course, I'll probably change my mind a month from now and want a Hamman M6 or supercharged C5 z06 with 800rwhp lol. Thats the trend...I'll probably go with another Benz in the end.(Or I could be like you, get a race car and a daily driver...who knows what the future holds for me)
Last edited by ItalianStallion; 08-10-2007 at 04:22 PM.
08-10-2007, 09:08 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Well,after poking around on Kenne Bell's website count me out.There is no way in hell I'm paying $7000.00 for a S/C to get 70hp.By the time your done having the car tuned properly,having the ECU flashed&whatnot your looking at $10,000.
That $7k price was for a GM or Ford,I'm almost positive it will be even more because it's for a M-B
That $7k price was for a GM or Ford,I'm almost positive it will be even more because it's for a M-B
This is a very interesting project. Rather than continuing to worry about the price, can you shoot us some nums?
08-10-2007, 09:39 PM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portsmouth, NH
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
none
http://www.ststurbo.com/ You could do your own system without too much trouble. The only hard part would be to tune your engine management system. You could just run a boost sensitive rising rate fuel pressure regulator but you would be limited on boost due to timing unless you were able to control your timing.
The no clutch system of the kenne bell is awesome. Similar to my magnasun SC the vacuum bypass gives the most violent onset of boost. I watch my boost gauge when I floor it and it is pretty cool, it's more like an "on" "off" switch. Definitly something a 6.3L will make a mess with. I'm so jealous of you guys...
08-13-2007, 06:59 AM
#49
Almost a Member!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mclean VA
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMO a cetrifugal SuperCharger will be a better suit for the C63 for the following reasons:
1. Smoother and wider TQ curve "Most of the time lower TQ numbers than a roots style" (Easier on Tranny)
2. Less heat (Intake Air Temps & Engine Bay) and the ability to run an Air 2 Air intercooler.
3. Allow to run more Boost since peak boost will happen up there in the RPM band. Usually peak boost after peak TQ won't require running that much less timing up top.
Summary: You can run 6-7psi on 11.3 C/R with a centri while only 4-5psi with a Roots style while retaining almost the same timing due to the way it builds boost and lower IAT. It will also be easier on the tranny due to the smoother wider and higher in the RPM range TQ peak. The end result would be a larger HP gains than the roots style with almost the same Peak TQ numbers.
1. Smoother and wider TQ curve "Most of the time lower TQ numbers than a roots style" (Easier on Tranny)
2. Less heat (Intake Air Temps & Engine Bay) and the ability to run an Air 2 Air intercooler.
3. Allow to run more Boost since peak boost will happen up there in the RPM band. Usually peak boost after peak TQ won't require running that much less timing up top.
Summary: You can run 6-7psi on 11.3 C/R with a centri while only 4-5psi with a Roots style while retaining almost the same timing due to the way it builds boost and lower IAT. It will also be easier on the tranny due to the smoother wider and higher in the RPM range TQ peak. The end result would be a larger HP gains than the roots style with almost the same Peak TQ numbers.
Last edited by LSs1Power; 08-13-2007 at 07:01 AM.
