Best place to purchase Quaife LSD?
11-07-2007, 04:48 AM
#52
MBWorld Fanatic!
..The second mechanical method of improving traction is to use a Quaife Automatic Torque biasing differential. Rather than using clutch plates as a method of operation, the Quaife ATB uses sets of floating helical cut gear pinions that run in pockets and mesh during normal driving.
Should one of the driven wheels start to spin however, the helical gears start to generate a torque bias thanks to the axial and radial thrust of the helical gear pinions in their pockets. The result is a progressive transfer of torque away from the spinning side of the axle to the driven wheel, which is now capable of transmitting a greater proportion of torque.
The Quaife differential ... provides constant and infinitely variable drive.
Power is transferred automatically without the use of normal friction pads or plates seen in other limited-slip designs.The Quaife differential powers both drive wheels under nearly all conditions, instead of just one.
With an normal open differential, fitted as standard on most cars, much precious power is wasted through wheel spin under acceleration. This happens because the open differential shifts power to the wheel with less grip - along the path of least resistance.
The Quaife differential, however, does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and automatically biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel.
In cornering, while accelerating out of a turn, the QUAIFE biases greater power to the outside wheel, reducing inside-wheel spin. This allows the driver to begin accelerating earlier, exiting the corner at a higher speed.
is gear-operated, it has no plates or clutches that can wear out and need costly and regular replacement. There is no maintenance required to the unit
DISCLAIMER: .. I'm not affiliated with Quaife!
11-07-2007, 04:55 AM
#53
MBWorld Fanatic!
RESUME' OF PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT - part 1... if somebody's interested, can attach part 2
07-14-2006, 04:12 PM #1
2QUIK4U
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 381 Quaife LSD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who are tired of the little orange triangle on their Mercedes AMG lighting up like a christmas tree everytime throttle is applied and are interested in a limited slip differential, I have negotiated a price with Vivid Racing for the Quaife units. Normally they retail for $1795, and Vivid is willing to sell them to us for $1580 "out the door" (i.e. free domestic shipping).
So if you're interested call Michael at Vivid Racing (480 966-3040 ext 226) to place your order.
I paid them $1,795.00 for the unit plus $500.00 to install. I had to buy new axles as my car had axles that wouldn't work. Appearently 2002 C32s were manufactured using two different types. That added another $400.00 . The car, however, is transformed; from a standing start, apply WOT, one second of chirping tires, hang on!!
11-30-2005, 06:28 PM #101
timberman
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: nottingham / uk
Vehicle I drive: silver 2002 c32 amg
Posts: 179 i rang quaife england today and asked about a lsd for the c32, they said no problem if a minimum of 10 units are ordered. the price would be approx £800($1400 at current exchange rates) or less with a larger order and would take 3-4 months to complete . all manufacturing would take place over here and orders for usa would be shipped to quaife america .at this price i am deff interested and if others here are serious about this then you can add me to the list . any further questions either post them and i'll ring them and post answers or you can call them direct (+44 1732 741144 )
Need help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so it turns out that the install of the new Quaife LSD for the C32/C55 is not trivial! My car has languished for a couple of days at one of the best shops in the entire SE Michigan region (Auto Europe, Birmingham), while they prepare to do the job. First, the unit that comes from Quaife is just the transfer. It must be installed using your ring set, bearings, seals, etc (of course, since you have it apart you use new bearings and seals). Next, the R&R requires some specialized tools from M-B to do the job correctly, including the tool to spread open the diff casing for replacement of the transfer unit, and no less than 23 (!) different special-order shim sizes, depending on the needs of the install. Of course, no Mercedes dealer has the tools to do the job, because M-B simply likes to replace the entire differential assembly, and many/most of these cars are still under warranty. The local dealerships think we're crazy to want to do this. In fact, because of this "atomic replacement" methodology, there is also no available documentation on the tasks to complete the job. To make matters worse, Alldata does not show the parts inside of the diff casing - I've seen the exploded view and it is shown as one entity.
As far as fitting your car, we know so far that for the few C32's that are attempting this install right now, the proper Quiafe unit is QDF7V W6356/A and utilizes MB bearing part #0029801702 which have an I/D of 55mm and an outer ring of 102 I/D. With your own VIN, cross reference this bearing part number to your car and see if you come up with the same bearing kit.
The Quaife installation is different and more involved than the Kleemann install which does not touch the bearings and other misc items and requires less allignment. With installation, both cost about the same, but the design approach is much different.
02-18-2006, 11:53 PM #161
smgC32
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 815 A few days have gone by since my install. So far, the Quaife has proven to offer a noticable difference in traction and handling. I had an opportunity to test it in the rain yesterday with and without ESP. You can actually feel both wheels pull. With ESP off, the car tracks straight even at full throttle off the line and then the attitude can be held with throttle input. In the dry, the same observation, both wheels are in action, especially around a corner where you no longer wait for the inside wheel to stop spinning. Took it through the canyons today for a light run and it appeared to perform better than the stock open diff. There is no noise at all at any power imput level, and driving around the city, you can't tell it is there. Finally a solution for those of us who can take advantage of its offerings. Can't wait to test it at SOWS.
There was discussion early on with the LSD options presented that questioned how an LSD will react with ESP and if there needed to be any special tuning to accomodate any variations caused by its install. Having the Quaife in the car for about a week, I can say that there is no interuption or intervention by the ESP system caused by the installation of the Quiafe unit. The ESP system works as programmed with and without the ESP system engaged. I have done countless power slides, sharp corner accelerations from a stand still, and other oversteer manuvers, and the ESP systems acts no differently than with the stock open diff. The difference is that the slides are now more controllable, the power more fluid, and the driving more fun.
Just ran the car this week at WSIR for more than three hours and the Quaife was flawless in its capabilities of delivering controlled power to both wheels on this fast road course. There was a very noticable difference in turns three and five which in the past resulted in frequent power robbing single wheel spin. Now, there was almost no wheel spin and a very controllable and minor slide through these turns with ESP off. You could actually feel both wheels engaged in providing the power to the rear and the slide was seamless and intuative in its control. With less wheel spin and more power to the ground, the car was faster through these turns. In addition, the reduced wheel spin with ESP on or off was more liveable and power cut out was less severe as a result of the Quiafe install. Overall, the Quiafe changed the driveability for the better at this track. I can't wait to test it at SOWS which will be the ultimate test of the Quaife's capabilities on this short and very tight road course which emulates real world driving. Quaife did an outstanding job with this application.
03-24-2006, 08:43 PM #173
m3_eater
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 485 Hi all,
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've received enough private messages asking about the gains I've experienced from the Quaife LSD that I thought it would be a good idea to add info for interested parties.
BEFORE:
The stock open diff is just so incredibly annoying - the inside tire goes up in smoke (while you wait to go anywhere) as you are coming off of any corner, especially tight ones. Also, oversteer is hard to modulate, so when the rear end steps out it is more of a snap and the DSC steps in without permission to help get you composed. Even from a straight-forward launch, you have to be extermely careful on the throttle because if not the right rear spins until you hit second gear and the car falls on its face before taking off again. Even with experience, it is difficult to get clean launches - and the M3s of the world are walking away in the meantime. Aren't those of you with modded C32s and C55s tired of beating lesser cars only because you finally hook up and reel them in?
AFTER:
Smooth clean launches are possible, in both a straight line and turning. You can control wheelspin so much easier that it is possible to drift the car! Also, it is fine to start in manually-selected 1st gear in way more situations where before you had to settle for 2nd because otherwise you would either be beneath the power curve, or it would just spin and you went nowhere (especially when the pavement is less than ideal). A classic example is the 90-degree right-hand turn from a stop. Just leave it in sport mode, hold left for a second to get 1st gear, and pull away like you mean it! Turn-arounds on multi-lane divided roads are also an absolute riot, because you can downshift into 1st coming into the 180-degree corner, then roll on the throttle and dial in oversteer coming out, and it's all controllable with throttle and steering angle. In a nutshell: Less DSC intrusion, better launches, WAY better corner traction, and easy to modulate oversteer in all situations, period. Basically, the car went from annoying to something that I want to sort the handling on and keep for a while. It's also completely quiet and I have experienced no drivetrain backlash.
By the way, I do not work for Quaife or any reseller, and I don't get anything from talking them up. I just love this thing - it's keeping me with MB instead of going back to BMW. I can't recommend it enough.
Unit: ~$1750
Install: ~$1050
-------------
total: ~$2800
05-04-2006, 11:16 PM #191
RLS
Almost a Member!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Central Florida
Vehicle I drive: 1980 928S Porsche, 1965 T-Bird Conv., 2006 C55
Posts: 69 Quaife unit is in !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally found a shop in Orlando, FL that would install this. They were very good and the price was right. They were putting in the Kleeman units but liked this so much, they called Quaife and are now an authorized dealer for them. You can not tell it is there at all. No noise what so ever.
Anyone thinking about doing any type of performance modding, should make this their first pick. I only got it back today, but just going around corners with a little heavy foot is much more smooth and faster! It is nice.
It's a shame that this kind of car did not come stock with an LSD. It definitely was needed.
04-16-2006, 06:10 PM #1
GTA23109a
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SoCal
Vehicle I drive: 04 E55
Posts: 274 Quaife LSD review
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently had a Quaife Limited Slip Diff installed in my '04 E55. The install (along with all other mods) was performed by HP Autowerks in Santa Barbara. The quality of their work and attention to detail is magnificent.
Car stats/mods:
2004 E55 25k miles
Renntech pulley/ecu/headers(coated)/K&Ns/Upgraded IC pump/stock shyt Contis
There was no "dragging" of one tire on sharp turns or ANYTHING to give away the fact that something had changed. What I DID notice was that upon leaving driveways or making right turns that required moderate acceleration (merging into traffic) there were no issues with the ESP hamstringing me and leaving me like a sitting duck in traffic. As a matter of fact, this has yet to happen in ANY circumstance since the LSD was installed.
Day two: It rained SO F-ING HARD I thought about buying a canoe to go play in the front yard. . . . perfect LSD test weather though. Mild (normal) driving was perfectly uneventful, even with the ESP off. When the throttle was squeezed just enough to break the tires loose, the car was VERY predictable and controllable, although the rearend DID have the tendancy to move left or right (usually left). Still though, it was very smooth and controllable. No shocks or surprises. Normal to slightly aggressive driving (for the weather conditions) with ESP armed showed little-to-no activity from the ESP and very smooth, stable driving.
Day three: The weather was perfect so I acted the hooligan a little. With ESP armed the car will still turn the tires, causing throttle-cut, but recovers VERY quickly. With ESP off, the car will turn the tires very hard, but not simply blow them away. It maintains constant, strong acceleration even when spinning. If the wheel speed gets too out-of-control (vs. vehicle speed) the car has a tendancy to step right or left a little. This is easily correctable with a little throttle modulation. ESP armed and normal driving, the LSD is seemless and you can't even tell it's back there. Perfect.
Conclusion: Quaife's LSD for Mercedes is a success in my opinion. It does what any MBZ part should do best; be seemless and invisible to the driver. The LSD behaves like it's been there all the time and truly enhances the drivability of the car. It also rid my car of one of my worst pet-peeves: the annoying driveway-exit/right-turn ESP-stall. My only words of caution would be to be careful once you first get in the car from doing this modification. Don't pull right out into the street and try to do a big, smokey burnout. The car now behaves like it SHOULD, not like a forgiving, peg-legged sedan. It WILL swap ends on you if you act like a clown.
Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with MBZ, Quaife, HP Autowerks or Renntech. All testing was performed with NO traffic, children, bicyclists, endangered animals/plants, or any other cute, helpless 'things' nearby and in as safe a manner as can be reasonably expected by an experienced and sane individual.
03-15-2006, 12:48 AM #1
OmeyHomey
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,177 Which companies can reprogram tranny ECU for new gearing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey guys, Im planning on doing differential, I can get differential and LSD taken care of myself but i still cannot find anyone who can reprogram the tranny computer to accept the new gearing so the car does not essentially go into limp mode. Does anyone know any companies that can do it locally in AZ or TX, if not then who can do it across the country?
03-16-2006, 01:11 PM #2
stevebez
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, UK
Vehicle I drive: No longer stock '06 E55, 330i BMW
Posts: 1,399
MKB are only guys I know of as they remap their trannies for their shorter diff ratios.
Rgds Steve.
__________________
Rgds Steve
2006 E55 Iridium Silver - Spec:- Keyless Go, Glass Sunroof, TV F&R, COMMAND, Rear & Side Blinds, Boot Closer, Parktronic, Split Rear Seat, TPMS, Linguatronic.
Mods:- Permagard, AMG 19" 2 Piece Style IV rims with B/Stone RE050A's 255x30 & 285x30's, MP designs leather sport steering wheel, ASP Pulley, VRTB, Johnson CM90, W220 RAD
03-17-2006, 08:21 AM #9
OmeyHomey
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,177 Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarenm8d
Guys, help me out here ...
Has anyone actually tried to change the rear diff ratios to confirm that the Tranny ECU will panic, or is this just a rumor spread by tuners to get us to pay for something we don't need?
Normally, tranny ECU's (TCU) keep track of input shaft speed, output shaft speed, and the gear they are in. If there is a mismatch, it will cause a limp home mode because it is interpreted as massive slippage/lock-up. This is why we can't change the internal ratios of the tranny or use a different MB five speed tranny with different internal ratios. The stock TCU will freak.
But the rear diff ratio is separate, and really the tranny ECU doesn't need to care. I can see the CAN-BUS info between the ECU and TCU enabling the recognition of mismatch in vehicle speeds, but that normally doesn't matter.
Is the MPH being determined from driveshaft speed/output shaft speed of the tranny, or from the axle speed?
BMW guys with the same basic Bosch architecture do this type of swap all the time without any need for ECU/TCU work. Heck, they don't even have to worry about speedo calibration because the speedo signal comes off the axle.
see i cannot tell... I have read numerous posts that "claims" computer will freak out. benz diffs don't have a electrical plug in them to tell the computer which ratio is in the differential so it makes sense that it would freak out but i've never actually heard of a case where it actually happened. I would hope it was all just forum myth/rumor.
07-14-2006, 04:12 PM #1
2QUIK4U
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 381 Quaife LSD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who are tired of the little orange triangle on their Mercedes AMG lighting up like a christmas tree everytime throttle is applied and are interested in a limited slip differential, I have negotiated a price with Vivid Racing for the Quaife units. Normally they retail for $1795, and Vivid is willing to sell them to us for $1580 "out the door" (i.e. free domestic shipping).
So if you're interested call Michael at Vivid Racing (480 966-3040 ext 226) to place your order.
I paid them $1,795.00 for the unit plus $500.00 to install. I had to buy new axles as my car had axles that wouldn't work. Appearently 2002 C32s were manufactured using two different types. That added another $400.00 . The car, however, is transformed; from a standing start, apply WOT, one second of chirping tires, hang on!!
11-30-2005, 06:28 PM #101
timberman
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: nottingham / uk
Vehicle I drive: silver 2002 c32 amg
Posts: 179 i rang quaife england today and asked about a lsd for the c32, they said no problem if a minimum of 10 units are ordered. the price would be approx £800($1400 at current exchange rates) or less with a larger order and would take 3-4 months to complete . all manufacturing would take place over here and orders for usa would be shipped to quaife america .at this price i am deff interested and if others here are serious about this then you can add me to the list . any further questions either post them and i'll ring them and post answers or you can call them direct (+44 1732 741144 )
Need help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so it turns out that the install of the new Quaife LSD for the C32/C55 is not trivial! My car has languished for a couple of days at one of the best shops in the entire SE Michigan region (Auto Europe, Birmingham), while they prepare to do the job. First, the unit that comes from Quaife is just the transfer. It must be installed using your ring set, bearings, seals, etc (of course, since you have it apart you use new bearings and seals). Next, the R&R requires some specialized tools from M-B to do the job correctly, including the tool to spread open the diff casing for replacement of the transfer unit, and no less than 23 (!) different special-order shim sizes, depending on the needs of the install. Of course, no Mercedes dealer has the tools to do the job, because M-B simply likes to replace the entire differential assembly, and many/most of these cars are still under warranty. The local dealerships think we're crazy to want to do this. In fact, because of this "atomic replacement" methodology, there is also no available documentation on the tasks to complete the job. To make matters worse, Alldata does not show the parts inside of the diff casing - I've seen the exploded view and it is shown as one entity.
As far as fitting your car, we know so far that for the few C32's that are attempting this install right now, the proper Quiafe unit is QDF7V W6356/A and utilizes MB bearing part #0029801702 which have an I/D of 55mm and an outer ring of 102 I/D. With your own VIN, cross reference this bearing part number to your car and see if you come up with the same bearing kit.
The Quaife installation is different and more involved than the Kleemann install which does not touch the bearings and other misc items and requires less allignment. With installation, both cost about the same, but the design approach is much different.
02-18-2006, 11:53 PM #161
smgC32
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 815 A few days have gone by since my install. So far, the Quaife has proven to offer a noticable difference in traction and handling. I had an opportunity to test it in the rain yesterday with and without ESP. You can actually feel both wheels pull. With ESP off, the car tracks straight even at full throttle off the line and then the attitude can be held with throttle input. In the dry, the same observation, both wheels are in action, especially around a corner where you no longer wait for the inside wheel to stop spinning. Took it through the canyons today for a light run and it appeared to perform better than the stock open diff. There is no noise at all at any power imput level, and driving around the city, you can't tell it is there. Finally a solution for those of us who can take advantage of its offerings. Can't wait to test it at SOWS.
There was discussion early on with the LSD options presented that questioned how an LSD will react with ESP and if there needed to be any special tuning to accomodate any variations caused by its install. Having the Quaife in the car for about a week, I can say that there is no interuption or intervention by the ESP system caused by the installation of the Quiafe unit. The ESP system works as programmed with and without the ESP system engaged. I have done countless power slides, sharp corner accelerations from a stand still, and other oversteer manuvers, and the ESP systems acts no differently than with the stock open diff. The difference is that the slides are now more controllable, the power more fluid, and the driving more fun.
Just ran the car this week at WSIR for more than three hours and the Quaife was flawless in its capabilities of delivering controlled power to both wheels on this fast road course. There was a very noticable difference in turns three and five which in the past resulted in frequent power robbing single wheel spin. Now, there was almost no wheel spin and a very controllable and minor slide through these turns with ESP off. You could actually feel both wheels engaged in providing the power to the rear and the slide was seamless and intuative in its control. With less wheel spin and more power to the ground, the car was faster through these turns. In addition, the reduced wheel spin with ESP on or off was more liveable and power cut out was less severe as a result of the Quiafe install. Overall, the Quiafe changed the driveability for the better at this track. I can't wait to test it at SOWS which will be the ultimate test of the Quaife's capabilities on this short and very tight road course which emulates real world driving. Quaife did an outstanding job with this application.
03-24-2006, 08:43 PM #173
m3_eater
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 485 Hi all,
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've received enough private messages asking about the gains I've experienced from the Quaife LSD that I thought it would be a good idea to add info for interested parties.
BEFORE:
The stock open diff is just so incredibly annoying - the inside tire goes up in smoke (while you wait to go anywhere) as you are coming off of any corner, especially tight ones. Also, oversteer is hard to modulate, so when the rear end steps out it is more of a snap and the DSC steps in without permission to help get you composed. Even from a straight-forward launch, you have to be extermely careful on the throttle because if not the right rear spins until you hit second gear and the car falls on its face before taking off again. Even with experience, it is difficult to get clean launches - and the M3s of the world are walking away in the meantime. Aren't those of you with modded C32s and C55s tired of beating lesser cars only because you finally hook up and reel them in?
AFTER:
Smooth clean launches are possible, in both a straight line and turning. You can control wheelspin so much easier that it is possible to drift the car! Also, it is fine to start in manually-selected 1st gear in way more situations where before you had to settle for 2nd because otherwise you would either be beneath the power curve, or it would just spin and you went nowhere (especially when the pavement is less than ideal). A classic example is the 90-degree right-hand turn from a stop. Just leave it in sport mode, hold left for a second to get 1st gear, and pull away like you mean it! Turn-arounds on multi-lane divided roads are also an absolute riot, because you can downshift into 1st coming into the 180-degree corner, then roll on the throttle and dial in oversteer coming out, and it's all controllable with throttle and steering angle. In a nutshell: Less DSC intrusion, better launches, WAY better corner traction, and easy to modulate oversteer in all situations, period. Basically, the car went from annoying to something that I want to sort the handling on and keep for a while. It's also completely quiet and I have experienced no drivetrain backlash.
By the way, I do not work for Quaife or any reseller, and I don't get anything from talking them up. I just love this thing - it's keeping me with MB instead of going back to BMW. I can't recommend it enough.
Unit: ~$1750
Install: ~$1050
-------------
total: ~$2800
05-04-2006, 11:16 PM #191
RLS
Almost a Member!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Central Florida
Vehicle I drive: 1980 928S Porsche, 1965 T-Bird Conv., 2006 C55
Posts: 69 Quaife unit is in !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally found a shop in Orlando, FL that would install this. They were very good and the price was right. They were putting in the Kleeman units but liked this so much, they called Quaife and are now an authorized dealer for them. You can not tell it is there at all. No noise what so ever.
Anyone thinking about doing any type of performance modding, should make this their first pick. I only got it back today, but just going around corners with a little heavy foot is much more smooth and faster! It is nice.
It's a shame that this kind of car did not come stock with an LSD. It definitely was needed.
04-16-2006, 06:10 PM #1
GTA23109a
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SoCal
Vehicle I drive: 04 E55
Posts: 274 Quaife LSD review
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently had a Quaife Limited Slip Diff installed in my '04 E55. The install (along with all other mods) was performed by HP Autowerks in Santa Barbara. The quality of their work and attention to detail is magnificent.
Car stats/mods:
2004 E55 25k miles
Renntech pulley/ecu/headers(coated)/K&Ns/Upgraded IC pump/stock shyt Contis
There was no "dragging" of one tire on sharp turns or ANYTHING to give away the fact that something had changed. What I DID notice was that upon leaving driveways or making right turns that required moderate acceleration (merging into traffic) there were no issues with the ESP hamstringing me and leaving me like a sitting duck in traffic. As a matter of fact, this has yet to happen in ANY circumstance since the LSD was installed.
Day two: It rained SO F-ING HARD I thought about buying a canoe to go play in the front yard. . . . perfect LSD test weather though. Mild (normal) driving was perfectly uneventful, even with the ESP off. When the throttle was squeezed just enough to break the tires loose, the car was VERY predictable and controllable, although the rearend DID have the tendancy to move left or right (usually left). Still though, it was very smooth and controllable. No shocks or surprises. Normal to slightly aggressive driving (for the weather conditions) with ESP armed showed little-to-no activity from the ESP and very smooth, stable driving.
Day three: The weather was perfect so I acted the hooligan a little. With ESP armed the car will still turn the tires, causing throttle-cut, but recovers VERY quickly. With ESP off, the car will turn the tires very hard, but not simply blow them away. It maintains constant, strong acceleration even when spinning. If the wheel speed gets too out-of-control (vs. vehicle speed) the car has a tendancy to step right or left a little. This is easily correctable with a little throttle modulation. ESP armed and normal driving, the LSD is seemless and you can't even tell it's back there. Perfect.
Conclusion: Quaife's LSD for Mercedes is a success in my opinion. It does what any MBZ part should do best; be seemless and invisible to the driver. The LSD behaves like it's been there all the time and truly enhances the drivability of the car. It also rid my car of one of my worst pet-peeves: the annoying driveway-exit/right-turn ESP-stall. My only words of caution would be to be careful once you first get in the car from doing this modification. Don't pull right out into the street and try to do a big, smokey burnout. The car now behaves like it SHOULD, not like a forgiving, peg-legged sedan. It WILL swap ends on you if you act like a clown.
Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with MBZ, Quaife, HP Autowerks or Renntech. All testing was performed with NO traffic, children, bicyclists, endangered animals/plants, or any other cute, helpless 'things' nearby and in as safe a manner as can be reasonably expected by an experienced and sane individual.
03-15-2006, 12:48 AM #1
OmeyHomey
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,177 Which companies can reprogram tranny ECU for new gearing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey guys, Im planning on doing differential, I can get differential and LSD taken care of myself but i still cannot find anyone who can reprogram the tranny computer to accept the new gearing so the car does not essentially go into limp mode. Does anyone know any companies that can do it locally in AZ or TX, if not then who can do it across the country?
03-16-2006, 01:11 PM #2
stevebez
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, UK
Vehicle I drive: No longer stock '06 E55, 330i BMW
Posts: 1,399
MKB are only guys I know of as they remap their trannies for their shorter diff ratios.
Rgds Steve.
__________________
Rgds Steve
2006 E55 Iridium Silver - Spec:- Keyless Go, Glass Sunroof, TV F&R, COMMAND, Rear & Side Blinds, Boot Closer, Parktronic, Split Rear Seat, TPMS, Linguatronic.
Mods:- Permagard, AMG 19" 2 Piece Style IV rims with B/Stone RE050A's 255x30 & 285x30's, MP designs leather sport steering wheel, ASP Pulley, VRTB, Johnson CM90, W220 RAD
03-17-2006, 08:21 AM #9
OmeyHomey
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,177 Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarenm8d
Guys, help me out here ...
Has anyone actually tried to change the rear diff ratios to confirm that the Tranny ECU will panic, or is this just a rumor spread by tuners to get us to pay for something we don't need?
Normally, tranny ECU's (TCU) keep track of input shaft speed, output shaft speed, and the gear they are in. If there is a mismatch, it will cause a limp home mode because it is interpreted as massive slippage/lock-up. This is why we can't change the internal ratios of the tranny or use a different MB five speed tranny with different internal ratios. The stock TCU will freak.
But the rear diff ratio is separate, and really the tranny ECU doesn't need to care. I can see the CAN-BUS info between the ECU and TCU enabling the recognition of mismatch in vehicle speeds, but that normally doesn't matter.
Is the MPH being determined from driveshaft speed/output shaft speed of the tranny, or from the axle speed?
BMW guys with the same basic Bosch architecture do this type of swap all the time without any need for ECU/TCU work. Heck, they don't even have to worry about speedo calibration because the speedo signal comes off the axle.
see i cannot tell... I have read numerous posts that "claims" computer will freak out. benz diffs don't have a electrical plug in them to tell the computer which ratio is in the differential so it makes sense that it would freak out but i've never actually heard of a case where it actually happened. I would hope it was all just forum myth/rumor.
11-07-2007, 05:13 AM
#54
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Very intresting thanks...
Last post got ME thinking...DO we really need TCU flash for diff gearing ???
LSD and gearing are diff things, so how would we order this from Qualife
Last post got ME thinking...DO we really need TCU flash for diff gearing ???
LSD and gearing are diff things, so how would we order this from Qualife
11-07-2007, 05:35 AM
#55
MBWorld Fanatic!
RUSS, I have my russian visa ready and I'll come soon v Moskvu
please PM me your tel ... if you are willing to let me try your beast!
or, i'll find you at smatrivaia plashadka?
.. here is PART 2
03-17-2006, 08:27 AM #10
OmeyHomey
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Originally Posted by mclarenm8d
It's almost a "standard" thing for guys with automatic BMW 840/850's to do. Now, I am feeling lazy so I didn't check my wiring diagrams for 840/850's, but I did check for Audis (Bosch ECU and TCU controllers), and the vehicle speed sensor is not a direct input into the TCU. But at least it is off of the axle as I had expected, so if one wanted to go through the hassle of an AWD final drive ratio conversion at least the speedo would be accurate.
My 840/850 diagrams are on paper ... Audi stuff is on my CD's, much easier searching :-).
Now, if I could only get my hands on the wiring diagram for our cars !! I agree with where I think you are going with the hypertech reference, either way this should be something that is simple for a rear-wheel drive car.
OmeyHomey, getting back to your original post, I should mention that I am interested in what you discover on this as I see this as a big bang for the buck. Taking our 2.65:1 and going to ~3.10:1 and raising the rev limiter to 6900 RPM would take away some of the torque advantage the turbo V12's have.
More importantly for my tastes, it would make the car funner to drive. I've gotten myself in trouble with local law enforcement twice trying to run my CL55 through the gears at only half throttle ... with the 2.65's, one can only do the 1-2 shift before bustin' limits.
ya i hear you. Benz gearing is SOOOO rediculously long, you don't need more power in any AMG, u just need better gearing. gearing alone will take serious time off your 0-60 and 1/4 miles especially if its Limited Slip. 2.65 is a rediculously low gear. W210 E55's have 2.82s and I plan on upgrading to 3.27 gears from a E320 diff and just put a limited slip style unit in there (maybe phantom grip, depending). 3.27 gears would give the car a 16% increase in mechanical torque and if you can get sticky tires and LSD to put all that extra torque to the ground thats a substantial difference in acceleration, it shouldn't be much slower than a stock W211 E55. anyways thats why i want to find out exactly if its for sure necessary or not, b/c if not then i can just put the diff in and not worry about it. diff and LSD alone shouldn't cost more than $800 tops.
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06-09-2006, 09:36 AM #4
stevebez
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Vehicle I drive: No longer stock '06 E55, 330i BMW
Posts: 1,399 Any clue what this mod (i.e. 2.65->2.82) would reveal at the 1/4 track ?
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Rgds Steve
2006 E55 Iridium Silver - Spec:- Keyless Go, Glass Sunroof, TV F&R, COMMAND, Rear & Side Blinds, Boot Closer, Parktronic, Split Rear Seat, TPMS, Linguatronic.
Mods:- Permagard, AMG 19" 2 Piece Style IV rims with B/Stone RE050A's 255x30 & 285x30's, MP designs leather sport steering wheel, ASP Pulley, VRTB, Johnson CM90, W220 RAD
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12-21-2005, 11:24 AM #1
stevebez
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Vehicle I drive: No longer stock '06 E55, 330i BMW
Posts: 1,399 Diff ratio mod .... why not ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So why is a shorter diff ratio not a cost effective option if you want better 100+ performance ?
Think the E's gearing runs out at 336km/h so the final drive could quite easily be shortened without compromising top speed and helping 100-200mph performance. Also the effect in the shorter gears is quite small so any traction issues would be only marginally worse - if any.
MKB do a 2.82:1 conversion from the stock 2.65:1
Theoretical in gear speeds are as follows with the 2 final drives...
........stock 2.65........MKB 2.82
............mph................mph
1st.......48.30...............45.43
2nd......79.25...............74.47
3rd......123.09.............115.67
4th......173.55.............163.09
5th......209.10.............196.49
So 0-100mph times should be better as well as accel above 100mph. 1/4 mile will suffer though if you expect a 118-120 trap speed.
Top end suffers too but its still 316kmh !!! (theoretical)
Rgds Steve
P.S. Sorry for the repost but I think this got lost in a prior thread where a war was on the go .... geez lighten up guys !
Also the 2.82 is the same ratio being used in the E63 and the SL so should be dead easy to source ... and while you change it ... may as well add a Quaife too.
BTW those MPH's above are with 6100 rpms (max HP)... not red line ....
Using 6400 its 47.66 , 78.13 , 121.36 , 171.11 , 206.16
Using 6500 its 48.41 , 79.35 , 123.25 , 173.79 , 209.38
Either of these shift points look like a danm good fit for the quarter.
12-21-2005, 11:39 AM #2
OmeyHomey
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Posts: 1,177 gearing is always a good option... thats not the problem. the problem is mercedes (unlike bmw) has the gearing programed into the tranny ECU instead of a sensor in the differerential so its not nearly as easy as it is in most cars unfortunately. Afterall, differentials are the "poor man's supercharger" as they say.
09-07-2006, 04:45 PM #4
jangy
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Vehicle I drive: '06E55
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I explored this idea with my inside man (at MBUSA) when making my mind up about getting the LSD. He strongly recommended against it, unless i planned to take on a huge challenge of playing the ESP/Active safety system modification game. His basic response was that the entire system would be very close to its tolerances and would trigger a "pull back" from the system much more easily. Case in point, all the people who have gone to larger diameter wheels (tire / rim combo) will likely see traction control kicking in MUCH sooner than those that have remained with the stock diameter. As we all know, changing the diameter is an even poorer man's way to change gearing.
Bottom line...can it be done? Yes...is it as easy as changing a part and a sensor / setting? No.
06-09-2006, 12:48 PM #5
Ted Baldwin
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Originally Posted by stevebez
Any clue what this mod (i.e. 2.65->2.82) would reveal at the 1/4 track ?
...........at present the E55 is traction limited. More aggressive gearing definitely improves your 0-60mph time and possibly your quatermile time. However with the more agggressive gearing you will likely have more traction promblems. This is why some tuners actually go the opposite direction in high HP cars. In my W210 E55, I have found no tires that will not spin off the line when I take off from first gear, even real slicks.
11-07-2007, 03:30 PM
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11-15-2007, 01:01 PM
#61
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2015 S212
OK, I got verification that the part for the W211 E55, part number is 48.309.185, and they currently sell for $1495.00. So, getting them for $1200 is not unrealistic. I can get additional discounts based on us having 10 people and my using a resale to do the deal.
I'm getting one anyway. They are in San Juan Capistrano and are the legit US distributor, so I will likely get them to install as well.
I'm getting one anyway. They are in San Juan Capistrano and are the legit US distributor, so I will likely get them to install as well.
11-15-2007, 01:51 PM
#63
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OK, I got verification that the part for the W211 E55, part number is 48.309.185, and they currently sell for $1495.00. So, getting them for $1200 is not unrealistic. I can get additional discounts based on us having 10 people and my using a resale to do the deal.
I'm getting one anyway. They are in San Juan Capistrano and are the legit US distributor, so I will likely get them to install as well.
I'm getting one anyway. They are in San Juan Capistrano and are the legit US distributor, so I will likely get them to install as well.
11-15-2007, 03:59 PM
#65
OK, I got verification that the part for the W211 E55, part number is 48.309.185, and they currently sell for $1495.00. So, getting them for $1200 is not unrealistic. I can get additional discounts based on us having 10 people and my using a resale to do the deal.
11-23-2007, 09:40 AM
#66
MBWorld Fanatic!
So is it going to happan or NOT ???
What about some other AMG staff that is required to be replaced along with LSD upgrade ???
So many people were intrested...I think you need to PM (since voted to make this GB) those who wanted them and then give US a final price...
I am ready but I dont know where and how much moeny do I need to send...
Thanks...
What about some other AMG staff that is required to be replaced along with LSD upgrade ???
So many people were intrested...I think you need to PM (since voted to make this GB) those who wanted them and then give US a final price...
I am ready but I dont know where and how much moeny do I need to send...
Thanks...
11-23-2007, 12:07 PM
#67
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Yes it is. I was to hear back from a few, so I'll ping them. I'm just trying to get them cheaper. As far as apps, which you get doesn't matter, but we need to show that we will buy 10 minimum IF we think we will get as steep of a discount that i want. I can get them all day at $1500.
11-25-2007, 11:42 PM
#68
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OK, best deal I have for now is $1500 shipped to those that are far and installed for those that are here. Looks like it may only be an advantage for locals. $1500 installed for me is a great deal, but i will continue to look for a better deal all around for all members. Also, I haven't heard back from the one tuner that I prefer. I'll keep you posted.
11-26-2007, 11:23 AM
#70
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, sorry. I'll do what I can.
11-26-2007, 05:05 PM
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Yes they do. We can mix and match for the GB. I'm sure I will need 10 guys to make one of these two budge.
Just to rehash, I know I can get as few as 5 for $1500 shipped. I'm trying to either get them cheaper OR get a break on purchase AND install. I'll follow up with all potential vendors this week and let you all know the options, then we choose which way to go.
11-26-2007, 05:51 PM
#75
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Mercedes Benz E63 AMG
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