Five Killed In A 2008 BMW M5
01-28-2008, 02:22 PM
#126
MBWorld Fanatic!
If alcohol was not present...then yeah...lack of skills and a basic understanding of physics along with the fact that he should have had enough of a brain to realize that while endangering yourself by driving suicidal is stupid, taking 4 kids along for the ride is in a class of it's own. Just horrible...
01-28-2008, 02:26 PM
#127
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 6,725
Received 558 Likes
on
368 Posts
'19 E63S, ‘16 CLS63 RIP, '09 E63 Gone, '06 M5 Gone, '97 Supra TT Gone
If alcohol was not present...then yeah...lack of skills and a basic understanding of physics along with the fact that he should have had enough of a brain to realize that while endangering yourself by driving suicidal is stupid, taking 4 kids along for the ride is in a class of it's own. Just horrible...
01-28-2008, 02:54 PM
#128
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Piedmont, CA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2005 S55
You may be Mario Andretti reborn, but the vast majority of 20 year olds are deadly weapons behind the wheel of 400+ hp cars.
01-28-2008, 02:56 PM
#129
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SW FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2005 E55 Black / Black Every available option except Sat radio
Long and short is, parents F-ed up and whoever got them the alcohol and financed the car for him made a big mistake. The Driver made a grave error by mxing all to many bad variables, God rest his & his passenger's souls.
01-28-2008, 02:56 PM
#130
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2000 ML430
01-28-2008, 02:57 PM
#131
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Long Island
Posts: 2,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'07 Porsche 997TT
Sorry, I must disagree. Look at the picture in my signature, that is my race car. I am a decent driver and a pretty good judge of driving skills. We race with 16 year olds that are very skilled with lightning fast reflexes and good judgement. We also race with 40 year olds who happen to be able to write the check and get in the car only to become rolling obstacles and endanger those around them.
My point is that with proper training, a young driver can be a safe driver and in fact, an excellent driver. An older driver is not a better driver because of age, it is experience based and in many ways, learning through trial and error and being unsafe along the way. Many have continued to be unsafe and unskilled through their driving years and own fast cars that they have no business owning.
Bottom line....EVERY young driver should be required to attend basic driving instruction classes that teach car control and limits. EVERY older driver that has not done so and owns a fast car should do the same. It would make the roads much safer.
Statistics don't lie but saying a young driver is an idiot and can't possibly be able to drive is a false statement.
Go on a Ferrari owner's club (or similar) drive sometime and you may witness some of the most irresponsible, dangerous, and reckless driving that you can imagine out of any group of 40+ year olds. No better then a BMW club drive with a bunch of 20 year olds.
My point is that with proper training, a young driver can be a safe driver and in fact, an excellent driver. An older driver is not a better driver because of age, it is experience based and in many ways, learning through trial and error and being unsafe along the way. Many have continued to be unsafe and unskilled through their driving years and own fast cars that they have no business owning.
Bottom line....EVERY young driver should be required to attend basic driving instruction classes that teach car control and limits. EVERY older driver that has not done so and owns a fast car should do the same. It would make the roads much safer.
Statistics don't lie but saying a young driver is an idiot and can't possibly be able to drive is a false statement.
Go on a Ferrari owner's club (or similar) drive sometime and you may witness some of the most irresponsible, dangerous, and reckless driving that you can imagine out of any group of 40+ year olds. No better then a BMW club drive with a bunch of 20 year olds.
There are bad drivers in every age group. I'm 43 and have done at least 6 different racing schools. I am a much better driver today than I was when I was 18 yet wouldn't attempt to do some of the things that I did when I was younger - when I knew almost nothing about vehicle dynamics etc., handling, etc.
I agree with you that ALL drivers would be well served to spend some time at a high perf. driving school. I can promise you when my kids get older they will be doing just that.
And, at the other end of the spectrum I hope I have the common sense to hand in my keys when I get older and shouldn't be on the road.
Last edited by cte430; 01-28-2008 at 02:59 PM.
01-28-2008, 02:59 PM
#132
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLS55 AMG
Neglecting Air resistance the calculation goes as follows:
Horizontal distance (x) = 200feet
vertical distance (y) = -15feet
t = time
downward acceleration due to gravity = 32.2 feet/second^2
Time taken to travel vertical distance of 15 feet:
-15 = -(0.5*32.2)*t^2
solving for t = 0.965 sec
Take t and substitute it into the equation for horizontal distance.
x = Vx*t
Assuming the car left the road horizontally and not at an angle we can just solve for the horizontal velocity:
200 = Vx*(0.965)
Vx = 207.25 feet/second =>141.3 mph****
Therefore the instant they left the road they were doing approximately 141 miles per hour.
....
But reports are now saying due to the skidmarks on the runway, he pitched the car sideways before he went airborne, causing the car to spin and rotate...so the final collision was upside down and on the side of the car...
Wonder if he took it straight and hit the facing forward if it woulda mattered any...
RIP Josh, epically bad decision ...
Horizontal distance (x) = 200feet
vertical distance (y) = -15feet
t = time
downward acceleration due to gravity = 32.2 feet/second^2
Time taken to travel vertical distance of 15 feet:
-15 = -(0.5*32.2)*t^2
solving for t = 0.965 sec
Take t and substitute it into the equation for horizontal distance.
x = Vx*t
Assuming the car left the road horizontally and not at an angle we can just solve for the horizontal velocity:
200 = Vx*(0.965)
Vx = 207.25 feet/second =>141.3 mph****
Therefore the instant they left the road they were doing approximately 141 miles per hour.
....
But reports are now saying due to the skidmarks on the runway, he pitched the car sideways before he went airborne, causing the car to spin and rotate...so the final collision was upside down and on the side of the car...
Wonder if he took it straight and hit the facing forward if it woulda mattered any...
RIP Josh, epically bad decision ...
So 200 = 2.085*Vx => Vx = 96 ft/s = 65.4 mph.
This seems quite low given the damage to that car. My guess is that they got thrown up higher than 85' at the beginning. Or else the numbers for the height reported are incorrect...
01-28-2008, 02:59 PM
#133
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Molde, Norway
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C200TCDI Sports Edition
+1 million!
KiwiRobbie, WTF!?
I've gotten into cars before and only found out later that the driver was high or drunk. If he whiped out would that mean that I am to blame? The fact is that 5 kids died. If you don't find that a tradgedy then don't post here.
Its probably people like you who would let rapists out of prison to walk the streets so they can strike again, but feel some kid who had a little too much alcohol and horsepower deserves his death, as well as the 4 kids who were riding along.
KiwiRobbie, WTF!?
I've gotten into cars before and only found out later that the driver was high or drunk. If he whiped out would that mean that I am to blame? The fact is that 5 kids died. If you don't find that a tradgedy then don't post here.
Its probably people like you who would let rapists out of prison to walk the streets so they can strike again, but feel some kid who had a little too much alcohol and horsepower deserves his death, as well as the 4 kids who were riding along.
01-28-2008, 03:03 PM
#134
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLS55 AMG
Yes....
....and it's not only actuarial science, it is neurological science. It's been soundly shown that the frontal lobe, where "judgement" resides, is actually the last part of the brain to mature. Until this maturation is reached, around age 25 or so, people are simply much more likely to engage in impulsive, reckless behavior.
This doesn't change the fact that some people at age 20 are more mature than some people at age 40, but as a rule, younger brains are more impulsive and reckless than older ones--and the nut at age 40 was probably a raving lunatic at 18 who is lucky to have lived through his teenage years (and probably wouldn't if he'd have had a car like this!).
This doesn't change the fact that some people at age 20 are more mature than some people at age 40, but as a rule, younger brains are more impulsive and reckless than older ones--and the nut at age 40 was probably a raving lunatic at 18 who is lucky to have lived through his teenage years (and probably wouldn't if he'd have had a car like this!).
You're not listening. Obviously you are a well trained driver and a young driver (I think?). No one is saying that ALL young drivers are bad or idiots. The actuarial science says that young people are more likely to make poor decisions than any other age group. That fact can't be disputed. Yes, there are some young people that are well trained and know what they are doing. We're talking about the young drivers who DO NOT know what they are doing and make the poor decisions of youth. Dangerous combination.
There are bad drivers in every age group. I'm 43 and have done at least 6 different racing schools. I am a much better driver today than I was when I was 18 yet wouldn't attempt to do some of the things that I did when I was younger - when I knew almost nothing about vehicle dynamics etc., handling, etc.
I agree with you that ALL drivers would be well served to spend some time at a high perf. driving school. I can promise you when my kids get older they will be doing just that.
And, at the other end of the spectrum I hope I have the common sense to hand in my keys when I get older and shouldn't be on the road.
There are bad drivers in every age group. I'm 43 and have done at least 6 different racing schools. I am a much better driver today than I was when I was 18 yet wouldn't attempt to do some of the things that I did when I was younger - when I knew almost nothing about vehicle dynamics etc., handling, etc.
I agree with you that ALL drivers would be well served to spend some time at a high perf. driving school. I can promise you when my kids get older they will be doing just that.
And, at the other end of the spectrum I hope I have the common sense to hand in my keys when I get older and shouldn't be on the road.
01-28-2008, 03:09 PM
#138
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F350 Diesel, CTS-V
This doesn't change the fact that some people at age 20 are more mature than some people at age 40, but as a rule, younger brains are more impulsive and reckless than older ones--and the nut at age 40 was probably a raving lunatic at 18 who is lucky to have lived through his teenage years (and probably wouldn't if he'd have had a car like this!).
+1
01-28-2008, 03:22 PM
#141
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SW FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2005 E55 Black / Black Every available option except Sat radio
01-28-2008, 03:25 PM
#142
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SW FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2005 E55 Black / Black Every available option except Sat radio
01-28-2008, 03:43 PM
#143
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-28-2008, 03:51 PM
#144
MBWorld Fanatic!
You're not listening. Obviously you are a well trained driver and a young driver (I think?). No one is saying that ALL young drivers are bad or idiots. The actuarial science says that young people are more likely to make poor decisions than any other age group. That fact can't be disputed. Yes, there are some young people that are well trained and know what they are doing. We're talking about the young drivers who DO NOT know what they are doing and make the poor decisions of youth. Dangerous combination.
There are bad drivers in every age group. I'm 43 and have done at least 6 different racing schools. I am a much better driver today than I was when I was 18 yet wouldn't attempt to do some of the things that I did when I was younger - when I knew almost nothing about vehicle dynamics etc., handling, etc.
I agree with you that ALL drivers would be well served to spend some time at a high perf. driving school. I can promise you when my kids get older they will be doing just that.
And, at the other end of the spectrum I hope I have the common sense to hand in my keys when I get older and shouldn't be on the road.
There are bad drivers in every age group. I'm 43 and have done at least 6 different racing schools. I am a much better driver today than I was when I was 18 yet wouldn't attempt to do some of the things that I did when I was younger - when I knew almost nothing about vehicle dynamics etc., handling, etc.
I agree with you that ALL drivers would be well served to spend some time at a high perf. driving school. I can promise you when my kids get older they will be doing just that.
And, at the other end of the spectrum I hope I have the common sense to hand in my keys when I get older and shouldn't be on the road.
I fully understand that with age comes respect and realization that there may be consequences for your actions. This is probably the reason those 16-18 year old racers are so damn fast (on the track) as they are fearless. But most of them are responsible on the street too but most aren't.
How about this...responsibility and skill training for anyone who wants to drive more than a Ford Escort regardless of age?!
01-28-2008, 04:48 PM
#146
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLS55 AMG
The other thing is that the motor, stressed from the prior runs, was doubtlessly taking more time to hit top speed, chewing up more valuable runway space and providing shorter braking distances. And if you figure it took them, say, 3/4 to a full mile to hit top speed with that heavy load, and that at 170 mph they'd have been travelling at 249 ft/s, that doesn't leave much margin for error! A 1/4 mile would whiz by in about 5.3 seconds at that speed, a half in 10.6.
These are dangerously thin margins under *ideal* conditions, let alone in the dark with possibly overdriven headlights, damp pavement in the humid Fla air, etc. etc. etc.
Hell, for that matter, he may have had a blowout, which led to the spin...that much weight, in repeated high speed runs with hard braking, probably wasn't doing the tires helluvalot of good either!
Just a series of tragic errors in judgement, the first of which being the decision to give an 18 year old with a bad driving record a 500 horsepower car.
Last edited by Improviz; 01-28-2008 at 04:51 PM.
01-28-2008, 05:04 PM
#147
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-28-2008, 05:09 PM
#148
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
grocery getter
I don't buy the break fade theory guys. I track my M5 a lot on a course near by (Grattan raceway) and on the back stretch heading into an 83 degree turn there is a straight away that will let you see 145mph on the speedo. Time after time, I would take that car into that turn with 100% hard breaking and only after maybe the 5th or 6th time around the 2.3 mile track you will notice some fade. I know, I know there is more weight in the car with multiple passengers but in order to get that much fade to allow such a miscalculation, he would of had to do this run many, many times.
01-28-2008, 05:10 PM
#149
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is a very bad tragedy and highlights the need for more stringent young driver testing. Deterring the age to get a FULL license will not prevent accidents such as these. I have been through that mindset with my 195 hp car, and I have made mistakes, just been a lot more lucky. We need to adopt the driver training standards they have in Europe. It is the only way to prevent this. Instead of labeling the 16-22 group as the most at risk, do something, step up and change education instead of spitting back numbers( I know they are true.) When I went through my driver training all i needed was 6 hours with an instructor and BAM! I had a permit. When I went to get my license I don't even think the DMV instructor even spoke fluent English. And also, I have seen people try 3 times to get a license! If you fail the first time you should wait longer. The lack of common sense and us becoming a more litigious society has not helped. People just want to play the "blame" game.
01-28-2008, 05:12 PM
#150
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Jersey
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2003 E55 AMG
Not taken as a slam or anything. Your not personally attacking me and i understand what you're saying, but im not trying to say my driving skills are amazing thats why i should have the car i do. I have my head screwed on pretty straight and usually think about things that could have potentially lethal consquences before i do them. I also completely agree that everyone should go through a driving school, would make our roads much much safer.
