Flame on
#27
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
I find it hilarious that people are actually back to argueing about "the incident". My point is about the behavior on the forum which I had been frustrated about for some time.
Fact: Ballzy is driving his car around. Hard.
Fact: EE is out of business. I hope we all buy his inventory so he can live.
Fact: This forum is not the one to decide if EE is liable for any of the problems Ballzy had.
Fact: We don't have all the facts and the ONLY one on this web who has the right to them is Ballzy who has also gotten silent on this topic and I applaud his restraint. His silence implies he is still not happy with EE and that is OK.
Fact: The whole discussion changed my mind to get a tune right now and so no tuner got my business (it would have been EE because of their location)
So I will let this run a little. Why? Because I said at the beginning, this is a flame at those who would not give a couple of nice guys a chance to take care of things before they were condemed.
#28
........you really don't get the point. Anyone can send you a flat bed truck, but WHAT HAPPENS IF YOUR ENGINE GRENADES? WILL ADAM GET YOU A NEW ENGINE? Ever had that conversation?
..........Ballzy's supercharger and tranny got replaced..........BY WHO? the dealer!!!!!
What if Ballyzy's car was out of dealer warranty? would Adam have replaced the supercharger and the tranny? Of course not. Adam won't have replaced it..........not because Adam is not a nice guy, but because he simply can't. If Adam had to replace two superchargers and two tranny's in S55's in one year, he'll go out of business. It will wipe out his profits for that whole year. These are not some big companies with liabilty insurance that will pay for a new engine or tranny if things go bad. Saying "we stand behind our products" is meaningless. Fine, if the ECU or TCU tune is not right you'll be given a new tune.....big deal! Question is........will you.....no, CAN you replace my engine if it granades?
...........I am not even against Adam. When Kleemann first came out, I said the same thing about their lack of warranty for your car. Up till now, no one really knows for sure if Kleemann or Renntech actually or do not have warranty for your engine if it blows. It is all so opaque.
.....The dirty little secret is that you are completely and totally on your own when you start modifying your car. The little shops like Adam's that help you, cannot do anything for you if you have a catastrophe. This should be openly acknowledged instead of hiding behind meaningless phrases like "we stand behind our products." Fine, your engine is blown, but your tuner is ready to give you a new tune for half price.............just as soon as you take your car to the dealer and replace youe engine yourself.
Ted
..........Ballzy's supercharger and tranny got replaced..........BY WHO? the dealer!!!!!
What if Ballyzy's car was out of dealer warranty? would Adam have replaced the supercharger and the tranny? Of course not. Adam won't have replaced it..........not because Adam is not a nice guy, but because he simply can't. If Adam had to replace two superchargers and two tranny's in S55's in one year, he'll go out of business. It will wipe out his profits for that whole year. These are not some big companies with liabilty insurance that will pay for a new engine or tranny if things go bad. Saying "we stand behind our products" is meaningless. Fine, if the ECU or TCU tune is not right you'll be given a new tune.....big deal! Question is........will you.....no, CAN you replace my engine if it granades?
...........I am not even against Adam. When Kleemann first came out, I said the same thing about their lack of warranty for your car. Up till now, no one really knows for sure if Kleemann or Renntech actually or do not have warranty for your engine if it blows. It is all so opaque.
.....The dirty little secret is that you are completely and totally on your own when you start modifying your car. The little shops like Adam's that help you, cannot do anything for you if you have a catastrophe. This should be openly acknowledged instead of hiding behind meaningless phrases like "we stand behind our products." Fine, your engine is blown, but your tuner is ready to give you a new tune for half price.............just as soon as you take your car to the dealer and replace youe engine yourself.
Ted
second YES Adam would replace my whole damm engine that was talked about many times you have no clue about his hook ups or what WE talked about. you should make remarks to stuff you know about not what you think!
Third we will never know what will happen now unless I buy a F-car and move to germany.lol that wont happen.
#29
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Bay Area
'10 Porsche Turbo PDK, 500e, GL450
........you really don't get the point. Anyone can send you a flat bed truck, but WHAT HAPPENS IF YOUR ENGINE GRENADES? WILL ADAM GET YOU A NEW ENGINE? Ever had that conversation?
..........Ballzy's supercharger and tranny got replaced..........BY WHO? the dealer!!!!!
What if Ballyzy's car was out of dealer warranty? would Adam have replaced the supercharger and the tranny? Of course not. Adam won't have replaced it..........not because Adam is not a nice guy, but because he simply can't. If Adam had to replace two superchargers and two tranny's in S55's in one year, he'll go out of business. It will wipe out his profits for that whole year. These are not some big companies with liabilty insurance that will pay for a new engine or tranny if things go bad. Saying "we stand behind our products" is meaningless. Fine, if the ECU or TCU tune is not right you'll be given a new tune.....big deal! Question is........will you.....no, CAN you replace my engine if it granades?
...........I am not even against Adam. When Kleemann first came out, I said the same thing about their lack of warranty for your car. Up till now, no one really knows for sure if Kleemann or Renntech actually or do not have warranty for your engine if it blows. It is all so opaque.
.....The dirty little secret is that you are completely and totally on your own when you start modifying your car. The little shops like Adam's that help you, cannot do anything for you if you have a catastrophe. This should be openly acknowledged instead of hiding behind meaningless phrases like "we stand behind our products." Fine, your engine is blown, but your tuner is ready to give you a new tune for half price.............just as soon as you take your car to the dealer and replace youe engine yourself.
Ted
..........Ballzy's supercharger and tranny got replaced..........BY WHO? the dealer!!!!!
What if Ballyzy's car was out of dealer warranty? would Adam have replaced the supercharger and the tranny? Of course not. Adam won't have replaced it..........not because Adam is not a nice guy, but because he simply can't. If Adam had to replace two superchargers and two tranny's in S55's in one year, he'll go out of business. It will wipe out his profits for that whole year. These are not some big companies with liabilty insurance that will pay for a new engine or tranny if things go bad. Saying "we stand behind our products" is meaningless. Fine, if the ECU or TCU tune is not right you'll be given a new tune.....big deal! Question is........will you.....no, CAN you replace my engine if it granades?
...........I am not even against Adam. When Kleemann first came out, I said the same thing about their lack of warranty for your car. Up till now, no one really knows for sure if Kleemann or Renntech actually or do not have warranty for your engine if it blows. It is all so opaque.
.....The dirty little secret is that you are completely and totally on your own when you start modifying your car. The little shops like Adam's that help you, cannot do anything for you if you have a catastrophe. This should be openly acknowledged instead of hiding behind meaningless phrases like "we stand behind our products." Fine, your engine is blown, but your tuner is ready to give you a new tune for half price.............just as soon as you take your car to the dealer and replace youe engine yourself.
Ted
If my engine imploded would I expect adam to cover it ... actually only if it was due to faulty installation by adam. If it wasn't due to fault installation I would expect RENNTECH to cover it.
Again let me give you an example :
I had a whine coming from the engine compartment. The techs first said it was the supercharger and when I called Renntech they had already set up a time to have someone take a look at it and send me a new one. It ended up just being the idler pulley which they said they would pay for. I said forget it ... it was only 100 bucks or so. But the response from Renntech was immediate ... if its the supercharger will we send one out immediately. Sorry this isn't an example of an engine imploding but the supercharger isn't cheap.
Do I think Renntech would step up to the plate if it was the engine? Absolutely.
Going by your theory ... we should just say no to all mods forever. We should say no to all tuners with no exception ... including the current golden child VRUS.
#30
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
What I do know is :
I have lost a shop that would answer my calls if I had a flat tire
I have lost a shop that will install/service my car (with a mercedes tech) for less cost than the dealership
I have lost a group of friends that would get together to discuss cars and enjoy them at EE
I have lost a shop that would transport my spare rims to a dealership free of charge
I have lost a shop that would order what I wanted with zero headache
I have lost a shop that would get me tires at their cost
I have lost a shop that would set up group runs to Sac for drag racing
I have lost a shop that would get answers for my questions in a timely manner
I have lost a shop that would open at anytime to fit my schedule
SO what if I they didn't pick up the phone immediately everytime?
SO what if they took a bit longer for my powercoat on my tires?
SO what if they had to do a few ECU tunes for my car?
I have lost a shop that would answer my calls if I had a flat tire
I have lost a shop that will install/service my car (with a mercedes tech) for less cost than the dealership
I have lost a group of friends that would get together to discuss cars and enjoy them at EE
I have lost a shop that would transport my spare rims to a dealership free of charge
I have lost a shop that would order what I wanted with zero headache
I have lost a shop that would get me tires at their cost
I have lost a shop that would set up group runs to Sac for drag racing
I have lost a shop that would get answers for my questions in a timely manner
I have lost a shop that would open at anytime to fit my schedule
SO what if I they didn't pick up the phone immediately everytime?
SO what if they took a bit longer for my powercoat on my tires?
SO what if they had to do a few ECU tunes for my car?
That is what we do when someone looses control of their car at 100MPH in conditions a professional driver would have never exceeded 50MPH. We don't sit there telling them what an idiot they were for being a whole hell of a lot more screwed up (negligent?) then EE may have been.
Now I do have to admit that some of the poser rants have been worth a bag of popcorn.
#32
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
#33
i will no longer spend too much money for little HP gains by modding an expensive car, ... going to ebay motors and will find a yugo to spend a few dollars modding and if it blows up....who cares.
#34
........you really don't get the point. Anyone can send you a flat bed truck, but WHAT HAPPENS IF YOUR ENGINE GRENADES? WILL ADAM GET YOU A NEW ENGINE? Ever had that conversation?
..........Ballzy's supercharger and tranny got replaced..........BY WHO? the dealer!!!!!
What if Ballyzy's car was out of dealer warranty? would Adam have replaced the supercharger and the tranny? Of course not. Adam won't have replaced it..........not because Adam is not a nice guy, but because he simply can't. If Adam had to replace two superchargers and two tranny's in S55's in one year, he'll go out of business. It will wipe out his profits for that whole year. These are not some big companies with liabilty insurance that will pay for a new engine or tranny if things go bad. Saying "we stand behind our products" is meaningless. Fine, if the ECU or TCU tune is not right you'll be given a new tune.....big deal! Question is........will you.....no, CAN you replace my engine if it granades?
...........I am not even against Adam. When Kleemann first came out, I said the same thing about their lack of warranty for your car. Up till now, no one really knows for sure if Kleemann or Renntech actually or do not have warranty for your engine if it blows. It is all so opaque.
.....The dirty little secret is that you are completely and totally on your own when you start modifying your car. The little shops like Adam's that help you, cannot do anything for you if you have a catastrophe. This should be openly acknowledged instead of hiding behind meaningless phrases like "we stand behind our products." Fine, your engine is blown, but your tuner is ready to give you a new tune for half price.............just as soon as you take your car to the dealer and replace youe engine yourself.
Ted
..........Ballzy's supercharger and tranny got replaced..........BY WHO? the dealer!!!!!
What if Ballyzy's car was out of dealer warranty? would Adam have replaced the supercharger and the tranny? Of course not. Adam won't have replaced it..........not because Adam is not a nice guy, but because he simply can't. If Adam had to replace two superchargers and two tranny's in S55's in one year, he'll go out of business. It will wipe out his profits for that whole year. These are not some big companies with liabilty insurance that will pay for a new engine or tranny if things go bad. Saying "we stand behind our products" is meaningless. Fine, if the ECU or TCU tune is not right you'll be given a new tune.....big deal! Question is........will you.....no, CAN you replace my engine if it granades?
...........I am not even against Adam. When Kleemann first came out, I said the same thing about their lack of warranty for your car. Up till now, no one really knows for sure if Kleemann or Renntech actually or do not have warranty for your engine if it blows. It is all so opaque.
.....The dirty little secret is that you are completely and totally on your own when you start modifying your car. The little shops like Adam's that help you, cannot do anything for you if you have a catastrophe. This should be openly acknowledged instead of hiding behind meaningless phrases like "we stand behind our products." Fine, your engine is blown, but your tuner is ready to give you a new tune for half price.............just as soon as you take your car to the dealer and replace youe engine yourself.
Ted
You got treated well you are happy, nothing really bad has happened to you so you are good.
Fact remains several other members LOST their cars or had to sell them, maybe some do not understand the magnitude of this, car went bye bye. This is not a little thing.
And the main problem was allot of people were hush hush, or take it to PM's WHYYY?
why would you want some one else to go through the same thing?
Even if it is just a small chance people have a right to know what they are getting into.
When posts are made they give off the impression of your experience, and thusly you are making it public and people to a degree will trust that information. By not disclosing other facts you are endangering them and others.
This is a public forum and you share your experiences Pleasant or Bad
running away from facts / staying quite / taking it to PM's, demanding threads get locked....
#35
I have to agree with allot that is said above...allot of people are replaying with more emotion than logical rational answers.
You got treated well you are happy, nothing really bad has happened to you so you are good.
Fact remains several other members LOST their cars or had to sell them, maybe some do not understand the magnitude of this, car went bye bye. This is not a little thing.
And the main problem was allot of people were hush hush, or take it to PM's WHYYY?
why would you want some one else to go through the same thing?
Even if it is just a small chance people have a right to know what they are getting into.
When posts are made they give off the impression of your experience, and thusly you are making it public and people to a degree will trust that information. By not disclosing other facts you are endangering them and others.
This is a public forum and you share your experiences Pleasant or Bad
running away from facts / staying quite / taking it to PM's, demanding threads get locked....
You got treated well you are happy, nothing really bad has happened to you so you are good.
Fact remains several other members LOST their cars or had to sell them, maybe some do not understand the magnitude of this, car went bye bye. This is not a little thing.
And the main problem was allot of people were hush hush, or take it to PM's WHYYY?
why would you want some one else to go through the same thing?
Even if it is just a small chance people have a right to know what they are getting into.
When posts are made they give off the impression of your experience, and thusly you are making it public and people to a degree will trust that information. By not disclosing other facts you are endangering them and others.
This is a public forum and you share your experiences Pleasant or Bad
running away from facts / staying quite / taking it to PM's, demanding threads get locked....
..........+1
.........People need to know very clearly that contrary to what they hear from vendors and tuners and their fan clubs: If you have an engine catastrophe, NONE of the tuners will get you a new engine, period. This not a tirade against tuners. Even if they want to, they can't afford to. They are just little shops here and there that have neither the deep pockets nor the insurance to help. So the customer is taking a very big risk. As a result, I very strongly strongly believe that we all owe it to each other to inform each other when we have problems with parts, vendors or tuners.
........Again, contrary to all the hoopla you are indeed taking a very big risk in modding your engine and transmission. It is a lot of fun, but you WILL be the one holding the bag if stuff goes wrong. Trying to pretend that this is not true is really dishonest and a great diservice to other forum members.
Ted
#36
I understand what you're saying, but Adam is not completely out. He may still decide to come back and start up again. He may even come back stronger than before. Continuing to argue over this WILL definately hurt him and his future business. Hopefully no more damage will occur, but you never know when things get out of hand. That's why I closed my previous thread....... because it started to get out of control !
#37
I truely believe people should share their tuner experiences with other members on the boards so we can learn from others experiences. It doesn't have to be a bashful review or one that's full of negative attacks, it should simply be just the experience as the one goes through it. If for example, I run into a problem after upgrading my car, then I would mention "we ran into a problem after installing my upgrades, but tuner X is working on a resolution, or we tried this, but didn't work and now we're trying that, etc..." If after a while, tuner X gives up and won't stand up to their claims, then I would mention that. And likewise, if tuner X fixes the problem, I would also state such actions. This allows other people to filter through a lot of the clutter out there, and basically learn from each other's experiences.
#38
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Bay Area
'10 Porsche Turbo PDK, 500e, GL450
EE is OUT
I understand what you're saying, but Adam is not completely out. He may still decide to come back and start up again. He may even come back stronger than before. Continuing to argue over this WILL definately hurt him and his future business. Hopefully no more damage will occur, but you never know when things get out of hand. That's why I closed my previous thread....... because it started to get out of control !
#39
#41
That is sad........ all because of one incident? I hope he knows that although one customer may not be happy with him or like him, there are plenty others who do and would still do business with him.
#42
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
Nope. Because of the response of this forum toward him and EE. Which is what I said in the first post.
#43
Yeah, but the response was mixed...... Not all were bad. I would say a few were bad, but most were good (very good). In fact, I would say majority on his side and minority with Balzzy, no?
#44
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Bay Area
'10 Porsche Turbo PDK, 500e, GL450
regardless
any negative feedback on a forum will have repercussions to online revenue. Since they were not raping their clients ... they could not survive off just the local clients.
Thats why if a tuner/shop is good one and willing to fix/resolve any issues that come up, I don't post the negatives on a board. The impact can be too severe.
If you look at the history of ballsy's thread it was more far reaching than just that thread. You then had people slamming EE on other threads etc. and saying that Evotech tune was crap ... blah blah blah.
Thats why if a tuner/shop is good one and willing to fix/resolve any issues that come up, I don't post the negatives on a board. The impact can be too severe.
If you look at the history of ballsy's thread it was more far reaching than just that thread. You then had people slamming EE on other threads etc. and saying that Evotech tune was crap ... blah blah blah.
#45
any negative feedback on a forum will have repercussions to online revenue. Since they were not raping their clients ... they could not survive off just the local clients.
Thats why if a tuner/shop is good one and willing to fix/resolve any issues that come up, I don't post the negatives on a board. The impact can be too severe.
If you look at the history of ballsy's thread it was more far reaching than just that thread. You then had people slamming EE on other threads etc. and saying that Evotech tune was crap ... blah blah blah.
Thats why if a tuner/shop is good one and willing to fix/resolve any issues that come up, I don't post the negatives on a board. The impact can be too severe.
If you look at the history of ballsy's thread it was more far reaching than just that thread. You then had people slamming EE on other threads etc. and saying that Evotech tune was crap ... blah blah blah.
#46
any negative feedback on a forum will have repercussions to online revenue. Since they were not raping their clients ... they could not survive off just the local clients.
Thats why if a tuner/shop is good one and willing to fix/resolve any issues that come up, I don't post the negatives on a board. The impact can be too severe.
.
Thats why if a tuner/shop is good one and willing to fix/resolve any issues that come up, I don't post the negatives on a board. The impact can be too severe.
.
#47
You guys do seem to be leaving out the possibility that his company was at fault and he is bugging out before the lawsuits hit.
Playing Devil's Advocate here.
Not to mention there are SEVERAL other MB websites he could go sponsor for besides this one.
Playing Devil's Advocate here.
Not to mention there are SEVERAL other MB websites he could go sponsor for besides this one.
#48
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Joined: Feb 2004
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1989 Toyota Tercel EZ - dyno'd @ 70whp/77wtq
This is my take...
What I know, the issue was started w/ Ballzy and his cousin. 5 issues that he brought up:
1. S55: S/C failed after Evotech tune
2. S65: Transmission failed after Evotech tune
3. S65: Bumper mishap
4. Outrageous waiting/completion time
5. Wrong brake pads
I'll cover short things first:
#3. Who knows whose fault it was. It could be there before the car was dropped off at EE, it could be EE's fault, it could be towing company's fault, it could be dealer's fault. Who knows... But: This has nothing to do w/ products that EE/Evotech was selling.
#4. It's subjective. I myself wouldn't expect to get stage 1 or TCU upgrade done in 1 day, regardless whether EE promised 1 day. I just recently got new brakes. They told me it would take 1.5-2 hours. In the end, it took close to 3 hours to finish. I could complain if I want to...
#5. Well, it shouldn't be a big deal. Regardless whether EE first claimed they were the right pads or not, in the end, they got it right. Time wasted, yes. Raising red flag, may be. Should be made a big deal, I don't think so.
#1 & #2 were the biggest and stickiest ones. Ballzy/his cousin and EE/Evotech could continue point fingers.
But the bottom line:
Unless one party hires a professional & independent expert, no one knows for sure (fail parts were already weak and on their way out vs. Evotech tune was bad vs. both).
Current facts:
Ballzy and his cousin are still running Evotech tune. They went to tracks and had street racing multiple times. No more S/C and transmission failures. And Ballzy's track times look very good. My logic tells me if it was Evotech tune that caused S/C and transmission failures, shouldn't the failures have happened again?
I know there were 2-3 members here had some issues w/ their cars and they blamed it on Evotech tune. On the other side, there are also numerous members w/ Evotech tune, including myself, who don't have any issues. Most recent example is Higginsbeach's car. His dyno and A/F curves look good.
Final conclusion: Your call.
I think EE closure was due to:
1. Loss of confidence in the forum due to unnecessary and exaggerated bashings. This results in bad reputation, hence, loss of potential customers.
2. It took too much time/effort/emotion, that translated to significant loss of money making opportunity window, to take care Ballzy's and his cousin's car.
As some posts mentioned above, EE didn't make a lot of money (that's why they were one of the cheapest), which made me believe that their cash flow was so fragile that one issue like this could be a death sentence.
That's what I think. Could be wrong.
What I know, the issue was started w/ Ballzy and his cousin. 5 issues that he brought up:
1. S55: S/C failed after Evotech tune
2. S65: Transmission failed after Evotech tune
3. S65: Bumper mishap
4. Outrageous waiting/completion time
5. Wrong brake pads
I'll cover short things first:
#3. Who knows whose fault it was. It could be there before the car was dropped off at EE, it could be EE's fault, it could be towing company's fault, it could be dealer's fault. Who knows... But: This has nothing to do w/ products that EE/Evotech was selling.
#4. It's subjective. I myself wouldn't expect to get stage 1 or TCU upgrade done in 1 day, regardless whether EE promised 1 day. I just recently got new brakes. They told me it would take 1.5-2 hours. In the end, it took close to 3 hours to finish. I could complain if I want to...
#5. Well, it shouldn't be a big deal. Regardless whether EE first claimed they were the right pads or not, in the end, they got it right. Time wasted, yes. Raising red flag, may be. Should be made a big deal, I don't think so.
#1 & #2 were the biggest and stickiest ones. Ballzy/his cousin and EE/Evotech could continue point fingers.
But the bottom line:
Unless one party hires a professional & independent expert, no one knows for sure (fail parts were already weak and on their way out vs. Evotech tune was bad vs. both).
Current facts:
Ballzy and his cousin are still running Evotech tune. They went to tracks and had street racing multiple times. No more S/C and transmission failures. And Ballzy's track times look very good. My logic tells me if it was Evotech tune that caused S/C and transmission failures, shouldn't the failures have happened again?
I know there were 2-3 members here had some issues w/ their cars and they blamed it on Evotech tune. On the other side, there are also numerous members w/ Evotech tune, including myself, who don't have any issues. Most recent example is Higginsbeach's car. His dyno and A/F curves look good.
Final conclusion: Your call.
I think EE closure was due to:
1. Loss of confidence in the forum due to unnecessary and exaggerated bashings. This results in bad reputation, hence, loss of potential customers.
2. It took too much time/effort/emotion, that translated to significant loss of money making opportunity window, to take care Ballzy's and his cousin's car.
As some posts mentioned above, EE didn't make a lot of money (that's why they were one of the cheapest), which made me believe that their cash flow was so fragile that one issue like this could be a death sentence.
That's what I think. Could be wrong.
#49
All valid points depending on which side you take.
My only remaining question is IF they are packing up and leaving the country (leaving the country...WTF?) WHY do they not post THEIR side of the story on here? What can it possibly hurt now if they are bugging out?
Would just like to see them post something other than a snide comment. Take the time to write up a nice response to everything that happened.
My only remaining question is IF they are packing up and leaving the country (leaving the country...WTF?) WHY do they not post THEIR side of the story on here? What can it possibly hurt now if they are bugging out?
Would just like to see them post something other than a snide comment. Take the time to write up a nice response to everything that happened.
#50
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Bay Area
'10 Porsche Turbo PDK, 500e, GL450
heh
All valid points depending on which side you take.
My only remaining question is IF they are packing up and leaving the country (leaving the country...WTF?) WHY do they not post THEIR side of the story on here? What can it possibly hurt now if they are bugging out?
Would just like to see them post something other than a snide comment. Take the time to write up a nice response to everything that happened.
My only remaining question is IF they are packing up and leaving the country (leaving the country...WTF?) WHY do they not post THEIR side of the story on here? What can it possibly hurt now if they are bugging out?
Would just like to see them post something other than a snide comment. Take the time to write up a nice response to everything that happened.