CWW

Well, now I am confused. I swung by the Chevy dealer on the way home to grab a bottle of this stuff and let them ogle my pristine 600 for a bit, and now I am home and reading the back of the bottle.

It says this:

"Gm EOS Assembly Lubricant is specifically formulated as an engine assembly lubricant that provides outstanding protection against run-in wear and piston scuffing as well as run-in camshaft lobe and lifter scuffing resulting from insufficient lubrication.

Crank and Cam Bearing: Pour EOS Assembly Lubricant over bearings and journals prior to installing crank and camshaft.

Lifter Assembly: Dip base of valve lifters into EOS assembly lubricant. Pour EOS Assembly Lubricant over camshaft lobes through lifter ports in engine block.

Oil Pump: Fill oil pump cavity with EOS Assembly Lubricant to facilitate priming.

Piston and Ring Assembly: Liberally coat piston and ring assembly with EOS Assembly Lubricant before installing into engine.

Engine Bores: Coat entire surface of engine bore prior to piston installation

(then in all-caps and bold, down at the bottom, it says)

GM RECOMMENDS EOS ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT ONLY FOR THE SPECIFIC PURPOSES LISTED ABOVE. GM DOES NOT RECOMMEND THE USE OF THIS PRODUCT AS AN ADDITIVE TO ENGINE OIL."

So WTF? Is this stuff safe to use, or not?

Timeless

I would never use a Chevy product on an MB supercar.

D Bst

I assume you read the link to the lnengineering website?

Specifically this:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html#Z14

Granted, this is talking about the porsche engines... but the ZDDP levels are still appropriate.

BTW, when did anything ever not come with some disclaimer?

Yes, the EOS is designed for use as a lube in a fresh built engine (to save those first few moments of NO oil in the system), so that's what GM is syaing use it for... just so happens you can add it to engine oil to boost the zddp levels...

Edit: also, this has been used by quite a few Porsche 993 owners with (as far as I know) NO ill effects. Remember that the air cooled 911's used way more oil than our AMG's (12 qts) and i've not heard of anyone complaining that it's "ruined" their engines.

BTW. LNEngineering does oil analysis for a living... they should know what they are talking about.

CWW

Those Porsche guys were recommending it.

I am on the fence with the whole thing, and am very confused about all of this. I want something in my oil mixture to replace the ZDDT, the zinc, and the phosphorus that got removed courtesy of our wonderful government ***** at the EPA, but I don't want to screw anything up by using the wrong product or oil either...

D Bst

Well, the other option is to use Motorcycle oil, (for Harleys)... that has NOT had the ZDDP levels reduced... Kinda expen$$ive though...

CWW

Are you using it in either your porsche or your mercedes? If so, what if any differences in lifter noise, clicking on startup, etc. do you notice?

MB_Forever

Same here....... everytime I decide on using a certain brand of oil, I find yet another article that dis-credit it for all kinds of reasons

I was thinking...... how about ordering Mobile 1 that is sold in Germany or U.K. or any other country outside the U.S. where the government did not force oil brands to reduce their ZDDP levels yet? Wouldn't that solve the problem? I know Mobil is selling 5w-50 (high ZDDP) and 5w-40 in other parts of the world. I wonder if we can order those and have them shipped here?

bigben320e

After reading this, I am more confused as ever. Is there a clear-cut answer?

I think I will stick with Mobil1 as I have used it for years with no issues. I understand the formula may have changed, etc but are there any others that are safe to use? If so, what?

I will talk with my SA (he works on a mustang he owns and others, does some racing) and some of my other peeps to see what they recommend, one of my friends owns a truck repair mobile operation and services tractor trailers, and those engines see more miles that anything we could possibly drive. (No I do not believe all that SA's say)

I suppose when it comes do to it, it's preference. A few questions:

1. Does Mobil1 REALLY suck? If so, where is the proof?
Note:I ran a 2001 300M for 150K miles on Mobil1 with no problems. (Not with the engine anyway) My E320 has run for 176K miles on Mobil1 with no issues, only an EGR Valve replacement.

2. What oil has proven to be better?
3. Additives to oils in a MB is considered a no-no correct?

D Bst

I don't think there will EVER be a clear cut answer...

OK, just to reset the thread a little. The additive for Mobil 1 I have been referencing (the GM EOS stuff), came about as a solution to bumping up the ZDDP levels in the "newly formulated" Mobil 1, that *was* the de-facto recommendation for Porsche 993 engines. The 993 engine is now, what 15 years old?, and so is a little more sensitive to wear, as miles are accumulating on these cars, and preventative wear solutions are sought. (Also the 993 is air/oil cooled so needs to do more than just "lube the steel").

So, what does that bring to the AMG party?

My thoughts are that Mobil 1 *HAS* changed it's formula and additive components since the engine block was built and released, so the best (logical) thought is that we should really be using the oil formulation that the manufacturer suggested when the car was first released. If that means that I have to add some "extra" on each oil change to bump up the properties of the oil, then so be it..

Have I used it in my 993 yet? No, but I've not needed to do an oil change since the last one which did get a fill of the older (better) Mobil 1 (I had a good supply to hand).
I do have a case of the EOS sitting in the garage, which I do fully intend using on the next change and onward.
I am a believer in the Mobil 1 oil (had previous cars that hit 200K miles and were clean beyond belief in the oil pan), but I do not see any harm in putting back into the oil what the 'Gubment has mandated to be removed for some strange reason.

My $0.02

MB_Forever

Not all of Mobile 1 products suck. Only the ones you can buy from inside the U.S. I think their European products still contain high ZDDP. As for the proof, it is actually on their website, which they've reduced their ZDDP levels to comply with government regulations. Other oil manufacturers had to comply as well.

So far, Royal Purple and AMSOIL both claim their products provide much better protection, less engine "scarring", and slightly more hp. However, some tests have confirmed these claims while others have dis-credited them, and even more interestingly, both companies claim that the lubricant/protectant used in the other company's products are bad for the engine and will void manufacturer's warranty

CWW

You sold me.

I dumped a bottle of the EOS into the crankcase this morning. No noticeable differences, although I plan on opening the hood tomorrow morning and listening to whether there is any detectible difference in valve train/lifter noise. In the meantime, I am going to see if there is some way to buy the non-reformulated oil from abroad.

Also, you have an extremely valid point about the engines being designed for a particular blend, which includes the zinc, ZDDP, and phosphorus, and that the available blends have now changed to specifications which are NOT what was actually recommended for the vehicle.

One more question, are you supposed to use one bottle of this stuff or two? They are small bottles, not full quart-sized.

MarcusF

Again, GF-4 is an industry standard, not a government regulation. If it were a federal regulation I couldn't buy oil with phosphorus levels higher than 800 PPM. Mobil1 0W-40, 5W-50, 10W-30 (high mileage), and 10W-40 (high mileage) all currently have 1000 PPM and are all available in the US. Agip, Motul, Golden Spectro, and Bel-Ray have even higher levels of zinc and they're available in every state. If they weren't, then sportbikes (like the GSXR) wouldn't work as their motor oil is used to lube the transmission.

When I was a college student, I was a Porsche wrench. I've personally rebuilt a number of air cooled sixes. Assembly lube (which is what the GM product is) has a ton of zinc in it because it's used in freshly rebuilt engines. The proper way to use assembly lube is to put it directly on bearings, lifters, journals, cam lobes, etc., while assembling the engine. If dumping assembly lube in the oil is beneficial, I don't see how. That's because assembly lube is rinsed off within the first few minutes of running the engine. When i built engines, the first oil change (which was non detergent) was done after a couple of hundred miles. At that point, there were no elevated levels of zinc in the oil.

People who feel the need, should use whatever additives they want. Others may be in agreement with Ed Hackett, a chemist at the University of Nevada Desert Research Center who said, "Oil additives should not be used. The oil companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive pack age that meets the vehicle's requirements. If you add anything to this oil you may upset the balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification."

CWW

Well I kind of have to argue with you on this one, in that the beneficial qualities of having a high zinc content in motor oil have been long proven...

Here take a peek: http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0...ive/index.html

So, since they've removed a pile of something we know to be good for the motor, how can we still say that the new formulation is still as good as the old, or that adding the zinc back in is a bad idea?

Also, it's important to note that we're not talking about adding any gimmicky "additives" here...all we're talking about doing is mixing differing quantities of two different oils, such that the combined blend contains at least as much zinc and phosphorus as it would have before the reformulation. We're not talking about adding "Slick50" or any of that kind of crap, so the "NO ADDITIVES!!!" mantra doesn't really apply here...

Sean03S55

Motul 0W40 100% synthetic is number 1 to me, but very expensive. I dont think it has any additive either. Been using it in my race cars for years.

CWW

How many bottles of EOS should go into the crankcase?

Thanks.

-Chris

D Bst

From the LNEngineering site I referenced earlier.

"One way would be to use GM's Engine Oil Supplemental additive. By our calculations, between .5 and .66 oz of GM EOS has to be added to each quart of oil to raise the Zn and P by 100 ppm each. For a Porsche 911, I recommend using 1 bottle (pint) of GM EOS with every oil change if the oil you are using has less than the recommended 1200-1400 ppm (0.12-0.14%) Zn and P. If the oil you want to use has less than 1000 ppm (0.10%) Zn and P, choose a different oil, since you will need to add too much of the GM EOS to boost this. One pint of GM EOS is sufficient to boost the levels in the very popular SM rated Mobil 1 0w40 and Mobil 1 15w50 products in a 911."

IIRC the average fill for a 911 is 12 quarts.
So, if the AMG is ~9 quarts then 3/4 of a pint (if using the 0-40 or 15-50 Mobil 1 oil).

MarcusF

I think we have a difference of opinion. First, I believe that anything added to an oil after the manufacturer seals the can is an "additive".

Second, I trust the conclusions of the North Dakota State University study on motor oil additives where they stated "The theory sounds good - the only problem is that the products simply don't work." I trust that same paper which specifically speaks of adding zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, and says motor oil, as it’s purchased from the manufacturer, already has an oil additive package. Many of the additives react in groups of two or more, to create an effect that none of them could attain individually. Changing or adding to this formula can upset the balance and negate the protective effect the formula was meant to achieve, even if you are only adding more of something that was already included in the initial package.

Basically, I trust the chemical engineers at Exxon Mobil know what they’re doing.

We all weigh what we consider to be evidence and come to a conclusion.

CWW

I think the difference of opinion here is that I don't call putting something into an oil blend that was there before (and still is there, albeit in reduced quantitiy), an "additive". It was an integral part of the formula, which got removed due to EPA regulation.

This ain't the same thing as putting in Slick50 or whatever.

MB_Forever

I don't think 5w-50 is available in the U.S. I've searched everywhere and couldn't find it including on Mobile 1's website. I did find 15w-50 but not 5w-50. Also, I can't find 5w-40 in the U.S. anymore while it is still being sold overseas.

MRAMG1

+1000

Those engineers do understand the operating parameters of their proiduct and they do what they do for a resaon. I feel too many people here are confusing just what they are looking for. Comparing an Air colled engine requirements to a liquid cooled engine is silly at best. I have not, nor will not EVER ad anything to my mobil 1. Guys, the bottom line is IT WORKS. I equate this to the old vantage of, if it isn't broke, why fix it. Alos the engieering term, I believe in the wheel, and it doesn't need re-invented.

See yeah

CWW

Royal Purple still sells that, but then you have to deal with their "Synerlec" moly polymer that's in all of their products, which some people swear clogs your oil passages, so hey....I dunno.

CWW

How are the valves/cams/lifters any different? They're not...

We aren't trying to change heating/cooling properties, or the rate at which oil breaks down due to heat, we are just trying to put back in what was removed due to EPA mandate, and which affects top-end lubrication in, I suspect, any car the same way, regardless of whether air or water cooled...

MRAMG1

You are correct that the valves/cams/lifters are in fact NOT different from a lubricating stand point. However, the difference is in how they are cooled. In a liquid cooled engine, there are passages around the valves in the head that aid in disapating the heat, espically around the exhaust valve. In a air cooled engine, they will run ALOT hotter, plain and simple fact.
I understand that you just want whats best for your engine, and I can certainly agree on that point. What, me and others on this fourm are saying, is that the engimneers that develope oils, any of them, know what needs to be added to make up for the lack of Zinc, etc, etc, mandated by the new standard. I am simply stating that you do not need to re-invent the wheel, or in this case oil. THEY ALL STILL WORK. The large manufactureres have spent literaly MILLIONS on oil research, to ensure this.
Suit yourself, but IMHO you are simply throwing money away.

See yeah

CWW

Yeah, well, I certainly agree on the throwing money part...that EOS stuff is $22+ per bottle, so it's actually MORE than the Mobil1 you're adding it to...

GRAFH

ENEOS bar none. >> http://www.eneos.us/