MB_Forever

You kept deciding to take the magazine weight to determine the weight of Jangy's E55 instead of Mercedes's curb weight.

You keep using the 4200 figure in your calculations vs using Mercedes' curb weight because it would drop the difference in weight from 1000 lbs to around 870 lbs

Improviz

I'll take that as an admission that I never said any such thing.

As to the weight of the vehicles: yes, I am using 4200 pounds, because every test I've seen, and every weigh-in I've seen, indicate a wet weight closer to 4200 pounds than 4087 for E55s with options, which is after all how they are sold.

I'll take that as an admission that I never said any such thing.

Now then, let's put this one to bed as well. My assumption of 4200 pounds was based upon the FACTS that 1) THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY WEIGHING THEM IN AT, and 2) that few, if any, E55s were sold as zero-option strippers, and in fact, after a quick search I can assure you that jangy's is definitely NOT one of them:
So, if we assume that the figure on MBUSA.com *is* wet (with no proof, but what the hell), we can use your handy-dandy list (thank you for that, really appreciate it, makes this taste all that much sweeter), from here:
You forgot Xenons, which were an option and which probably add 15 pounds for the extra electronics.

Not sure if jangy has nav (this may, or may not, have been in the Prem Pkg at that time, not sure so I'll omit it), but here's what we have:
4087+15 (xenons)+60+30+20+10+15 (averaged your two weights for trunk closer).

Would you like to do the math, or should I?

Oh, I'm feeling generous, I'll do it:
4237 pounds!!!!!



Bye!

bdahlg68

Cd for en E55 is 0.28 vs 0.34 for a Z06. That MUST be the difference!!!!

MB_Forever

Show me where I stated Jangy's car was a stripper with no options? You started taking weights of other E55s and I stated that not all are 4200 lbs. The curb weight is 4087 without any options. If a car was ordered with options, it'll be heavier.

And probably many more that adds a few pounds here and there You asked so skeptically, what options add 200 lbs and I gave you the list. It could definitely be bigger

Not sure if jangy has nav (this may, or may not, have been in the Prem Pkg at that time, not sure so I'll omit it), but here's what we have:
4087+15 (xenons)+60+30+20+10+15 (averaged your two weights for trunk closer). [/QUOTE]

Again, show me where I said Jangy's car weights 4200 lbs or where I even mentioned any of his car's options I spoke against your calculations of 4200 lbs for E55s when not all of them weight the same depending on options. And yes options can add up to 200 or mayb even 300 lbs, which does make a difference even using your calculator

Improviz

Oh, give me a break....the context of this whole discussion is what jangy's car weighs, and the difference between it and a Z06. You yourself wrote:
Difference in what? In jangy's car and the Z06? No? So what, you've been arguing with me for two pages now over something unrelated, the difference between a stock stripper and a Z06? For what purpose? To establish something totally and utterly unrelated to the topic at hand?

Stock E55s don't have 505 rwhp, do they? So what relevance does the weight of a zero-optioned E55 have to a discussion about the weight differences between jangy's car and a Z06?

Get real, dude. You're clearly trying to twist your way out of it, now that your hypothesis has been blown out of the water.

Riiiiiggggggghhhhht, that's obviously what you were trying to argue.

Later, dude....I have nothing more to say to you.

komp55

Just skimmed through this thread. Wow. By now, I picture some of the main contributors to this thread perhaps somewhat like this (and I feel this way just reading this stuff):




Guys, no one is going to convince each other of anything. It's been a hilarious read, but maybe your keyboards could use a rest on this topic for awhile. Just a thought.

MB_Forever

If you haven't noticed, the discussion did de-rail into many different directions throughout the two pages you're talking about, one was which, E55 weight vs z06 weight, and then curb weight, etc.... The difference is not always 1000 lbs. You know it but have a hard time admitting it.

I never claimed stock E55s had 505 rwhp. I verified Jangy's hp claim by providing one of the latest dynos to his car. The relevance was to the discussion about difference in weights between E55s and Z06s. But in fact what relevance would it have if we both don't know the exact weights of both cars involved in the race. May be the Z06 that Jangy raced had less weight or extra weight than a regular E55 and maybe the Z06 did as well. At this point your simply assuming only the conditions that fit your needs. I know of at least one Mercedes that looks stock, but has had weight reduction of over 200 lbs. But I know I know, those don't count

Yes, go back and read my post when you kept asking about the options and extra weight

Too bad "dude", the thread will get even more interesting as more info is released......

Zlicious

Still waiting on Jrcart to respond...

JAYCL600

he trapped 118 at his last outing, what kind of response do expect from him

Zlicious

Well, I figured if a 500 rwhp Benz can destroy a 480 rwhp Z06 (Original story on here), then a 500 rwhp Benz would be a good race with a 520 rwhp Z06, no?..

JAYCL600

sounds like an even match to me

Zlicious

Me too. Hence my waiting for Jrcart's response..

Improviz

Horse hooey, you knew good and well that the topic was comparative weight of jangy's car to Z06 all along. The only reason I posted the weight of the cars on this forum was to establish that 4200 pounds is a good weight for an OPTIONED E55, which, as I have established (and as he himself said earlier in this thread) jangy's is.

Further, I made very clear that this was wrt jangy's car and thus the weight of a lightweight optionless car had no relevance in this post:
It couldn't have been any clearer, so please...spare me.

And you yourself admitted that you damn well knew I was using these numbers to deterimine a ballpark weight for jangy's car, when you wrote:
Clearly, you understood that my purpose in citing the other cars was to establish a ballpark number for the weight of jangy's car, and, just as clearly, you thought that citing the mbusa factory weight of 4087 accomplished your goal of narrowing the weight difference between the two cars.

It was only after you foolishly published a list of weights for options, and I performed a little addition using your numbers to come up w/4237 for jangy's car, that you started trying to claim the argument was about something else rather than admit that your argument was full of holes and sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

You knew I was discussing the weight OF JANGY'S CAR, not a factory stripper, and you knew that jangy's car is a 2006, not a 2003 which may have been shipped minus spare.

That you are trying to twist ouf of this now that your own numbers in conjunction with mbusa's published weight show that 4200 pounds is a reasonable estimate for a car equipped like jangy's is illustrative of yet more intellectual dishonesty on your part.

Which is why I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

Improviz

jangy also has yet to respond to the ricker's invitation for a run.

Carl Lassiter

cD is a marketing gimmick and doesn't tell squat about how streamlined a car actually is.

Thericker

Hmmmm well I was curious as to where the Jangster went??? Alas he's watching/reading
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I'll prolly buy an Optima Battery by the time he responds, minus more weight

MB_Forever

Not really, the discussion went into many different directions, one of which included weights of different E55s, and you never mentioned the term OPTIONED E55 by the way until I kept repeating Mercedes' curb weight does not include options; go back and re-read your posts.

Yes it did when the discussion was between curb weights of E55s and Z06s.

Aparently it wasn't for either of us.

No, that was only near the end of our long threads way after I showed you that not all E55s are the same weight, then you shifted the discussion back to Jangy's car.

Comparing declared curb weights of both manufacturer does narrow the weight difference between E55s and Z06s. Also, we're not really sure if the curb weight declared by Chevrolet includes options or not.

First, you were the one who foolishly asked what kind of options add 200 lbs? Second, the 60 lbs foolish figure for the spare tire was actually your number. Also, if you look again, I only tried to clarify my "alleged" claims AFTER I showed you the difference between the two cars could be less than a 1000 lbs, then you started attacking me; this had nothing to do with the list of options' weights.

I knew Jangy's car was 2006 but don't know what kind of options it has. You tried to doubt my claim that 2003 E55s did not come with a spare and when proven wrong, you tried to refer back to Jangy's car claiming that 03 models did not apply to the discussion.

It is you who is now twisting out of this your own argument and starting to change your wordings like "OPTIONED E55", "equiped like", etc....
Don't claim someone is dishonest simply because they disagree with you....

Again, too bad. I don't know why, but too bad. Ready for page 8?

Improviz

Sorry, but you're lying on several fronts, again.

1) I never said that "all W211's weigh 4200 pounds". This is a lie.

2) I never said that "all W211s are the same weight". This is a lie.

Further, I used the term "optioned" to differentiate between the irrelevant, hypothetical stripped car that you were arguing about and an actual, on-the-street E55.

3) you're lying about when I introduced the weight jangy's car vs. that of MBUSA's curb weight. I listed the weights of the cars that I could find in this forum in post number 241. This was, again, just after jangy had alleged that his car only weighed five hundred or so pounds more than a Z06.

You responded in this post, #243:
IMMEDIATELY, I questioned you as to why you felt the weight of a spare-free, option-free car was relevent:
Your follow-up:
My response:
Pure and simple, AS SOON AS you started trying to introduce a stripper, I questioned it, and questioned the relevence of introducing a stripped, no option car into a discussion of the weight of jangy's car.

So stop lying about what I wrote, and what I intended. That's three lies in one post.

You see, there was a reason I used 4200 pounds, which is hopelessly lost on you, and that reason is this:

For every example of a W210 E55 being weighed in these forums that I knew of (which I subsequentially verified in a post in this thread), and in mag tests, curb weight was in the vicinity of 4200 pounds, when corrected to have a full tank of gas and re-adding spare's weight when owner had removed it. Every mag test was IN THE RANGE of 4200 pounds, and some were heavier. NONE were below 4200 pounds. This was my point.

The reason I made this point, which is also lost on you, is to establish that the weight difference is around 1000 pounds between jangy's car and a typical Z06. In turn, reason I made this point, which is also lost on you, is because jangy was claiming the weight difference was far less, claiming it as only 500 pounds.

You see, there is a train of thought here: jangy makes claim->evidence is shown to refute that claim->you take discussion off on tangent about weight of zero option car.

Your little sideshow had, and has, no relevence, and I made that crystal clear from the very first attempt you made to change the topic to an option-free car, just as I made it clear that a spare-tire-free 2003 model is also irrelevant in a discussion about a 2006.

The FACT is that jangy's car is not an option-free, spare-free 2003, it is a well-optioned, 2006 with a spare, and which in addition to the options listed previously also has nav system, and also has lots of nice aftermarket stereo gear which will add weight: amps, speakers two 10" subs, etc....so for you to try and use a stripper to establish its weight and to dispute the numbers I posted is, to put it mildly, extremely intellectualy dishonest.

Keep lying about what I wrote all you like, but the posts speak for themselves; I disputed you about this from your first post, full stop.

And so, having once again proven that you're intellectually dishonest, not to mention flat-out dishonest, I'm going to mosey on....only reason I even bothered is that you keep lying about what I wrote, can't let that go, but again the quotes show who's lying, and it damn sure ain't me.

jangy

Anytime....and what will that prove?

jangy

Hehe!! You caught me browsing the W204 section. Sorry for not posting here each time I check in, but it is just a bit boring now that it has gone full on OT. Out of the whole thread, one dude shosw up with a Z06 ready to run at Sears Point. Then, there is also you and I think you are wanting to race me in your 600? Do you even have the Vette anymore? Either way, you and I have been destined to have a run for ages. Pick your car and we'll get it done. No excuses. No blabber.

Thericker

Kewl!! pm me your schedule...

MB_Forever

No, that's what it seemed you were implying when trying to estimate Jangy's car's weight using Magazine tests as the God of all measurements. I already showed you that magazines will sometimes report very different results, as is the case with the GT2 vs Z06 video.

Also, in that case you're a big liar yourself since I never said all the dynos on dragtimes were fraudulent, but you kept repeating it even after I clarified.

You seem to start using it after I repeatedly mentioned that Mercedes' curb weight does not include options. E55s can come with or without options, it is not hypothetical. Mercedes already comes with many standard features. Some people will order 1 or 2 options while others will order no options while others will order full options. And as I've showed you options do make a difference in weight.

I replied in post #241 by adding one more E55 to your data set, but I also warned that Mercedes numbers don't include options and some E55s did not come with spare, in which you skeptically replied:

I then searched and found that ALL 2003 models didn't come with spare and navigation except presidential edition which comes with navi but no one knows about the spare.

Ditto.....

Then I came in and claimed that the weight difference can also be around 900 lbs not 1000 and not 500 because different options will add different weight to the car. That is shown if you take Mercedes' curb weight vs Z06 curb weight or even if you add 2 or 3 options to a Mercedes' curb weight. Also, at the time, Jangy's options were not known (and still not fully known).

You're the one who doubted the spare statement, so I replied that the 2003 models did not come with spare. It could've been any model year.

But even you don't know the weight of Jangy's car. Maybe he does not carry the spare or tools or have made any changes to his car. Claiming that he had the spare or that his car weights a certain weight at a given point is also dishonest.

Improviz

Nice try, but people can read the posts (like this one, and this one) and decide for themselves, just as they can read the following posts and see how, using your own numbers and jangy's listed options, the weight figure we get for his car is *over* 4200 pounds, and that doesn't even count the nav system (yes, he's got one), aftermarket stereo w/dual 10" subs, larger speakers, etc.

Anyone with a brain who reads that, and the weight numbers I provided from actual member weigh-ins here, all of which were between 4200-4330 pounds--meaning 4200 pounds is on the LOW SIDE--can see that 4200 pounds is a much more reasonable estimate for that car than the 4087 for a zero-option stripper that you simply refuse to abandon, but it doesn't stop you from trying to dishonestly use your hypothetical car to represent jangy's weight while hypocritically disregarding the results your own numbers give for the car's weight, or from continuing to lie about what I wrote despite anyone being able to see it.

And please, you think that because two magazines' performance data is different that this is somehow applicable to their weight measurements? Even for you, that is a leap in logic that would make Bob Beamon proud.

Bottom line is, you've produced nothing whatsoever to show that 4200 pounds is an unreasonable estimate for the weight of jangy's car, and all available measured weight data for similarly-optioned cars puts them at a minimum of 4200 pounds, with the average weight even higher. As before, your argument consists of hypotheticals, non sequiturs, and irrelevant red herring arguments.

Wrt the Z06, go have a look at the options list: it's pretty short, and you won't even find 100 pounds' worth of weight in them. Nav and heated seats are it insofar as anything that might add a bit of weight, unless you want to quibble over a nylon luggage cover or a license plate bracket.

So, using your numbers, even if we deck out the Z06 we still won't even hit 3200 pounds.

Which means the difference between the cars is still around 1000 pounds.

Or, even if we do what it is that you're so desperately trying to get us to do and utterly disregard the options that jangy's car is equipped with, which by your own admission add weight, and instead use a zero-optioned stripper for the E55, then the difference becomes about 940 pounds, which is still around 1000 pounds.

Wow, I guess that 60 pounds would mean a win!! Yeah, that's it....man, 60 pounds will definitely knock what, ten seconds off your 80-150 time?? Yup, that's definitely worth all of the effort you expended there, chief!

All of this soundly demonstrates that you are, basically, an idiot for wasting three pages arguing over what we've been trying to get into your rock of a skull for days, with which your own numbers for the options and curb weight agree, and which even your imaginary stripper E55 fails to disprove.

But then, you're pretty good at playing the fool. You spent the same amount time churing out vacuous post after vacuous post, generating lame, nonsensical, hypothetical and circular arguments about why people should dismiss data on dragtimes.com, which accomplished exactly zero; you provided no logical nor empirical reasons why the Z06 dynos, slips, and videos I linked to there are inaccurate, fraudulent, or untrustworthy, which would constitute good reasons for dismissing them from this discussion (as opposed to your biased belief that they should be dismissed from this discussion, which is NOT, despite your ramblings and rantings, reason to discard anything except any notion of objectivity or credibility on your part).

Your moronic response, that I have provided no reason why people should believe them, is true, but it is also irrelevant. As with any evidence, the people will examine the slips, dynos, and videos, judge their validity and merit, or lack of merit, and make up their own minds, not you. Oh, and one other person who looks it over is our very own Fikse, who assured me that every entry on the site is examined, and that obviously outside-the-pale, bogus data is promptly removed. For some reason, he does not believe the Z06 dynos, slips, and videos I linked to to be unreliable. Have you PM'd him to talk some sense into him?

Oh, and then there are the dyno runs which were personally witnessed by members of this forum, the outings at the strip where bone stock Z06s broke into the 10's also witnessed by members of this forum, the race accounts made by members of this forum, the video made by Zlicious and verified by the E55 owner, who is also a member of this forum.....sure, yeah, if you ignore all of that, well, then...

Then you're MB_Forever, lead apologist for jangy and all things Mercedes!! I just hope jangy doesn't stop walking too suddenly, he might break your nose.

So go on: continue to gesticulate like a clown and wave your hands to try and distract people, try to compare hypothetical zero-optioned E55s to loaded Z06s, dismiss dynos, videos, the 99% of performance tests for the Z06 that don't agree with your point of view, dismiss dragtimes.com where you yourself have posted timeslips, dismiss jangy's list of options and their effects upon the weight of his car which you acknowledged, etc. etc. etc....but the thing is, you haven't really proven a single thing despite all of this effort, other than an extreme, pathological bias, and meanwhile a mountain of evidence, and plenty of witnesses to these dynos and 1/4 mile runs that you'd just as soon people not hear about have continued to demonstrate just how delusional you are.

You have proven nothing, other than that you're a third-rate debater, a second-rate liar, and a first-rate jackass. I will neither read nor respond to any more of your sophomoric swill.

bdahlg68

Doesn't it? I would guess the Cd values could be off, but it doesn't mean the equation itself doesn't apply. Anyway, the difference is minimal. My original post was meant more as a joke.

MB_Forever

Yes they can, and they can also see that you never even talked about options whether on Jangy's car or any E55 until I revealed the curb weight did not include it from Mercedes website. You simply refuse to accept any other numbers that oppose your point of view. Even when you're in love with your *beloved* magazine tests, you seem to not believe the one I provided you about the Z06 performance because it doesn't agree or favor the Z06.

You're the one who blindly believes magazine tests like they were the word of God without critically considering the whole picture. Yes, the performance of one magazine was significantly different than the other for the same car. Maybe they used a heavier car, and maybe they didn't. But that is one good example of how magazines do report different data.

You really need to find another excuse than "your argument is hypothetical, blah, blah, blah". You have not shown that Jangy's car was 4200 lbs at the time of the race. You simply assumed it weights as much as a couple of members' cars here on the forum. You assumed he had full tank of gas, etc, etc.... You didn't even mention his options until I clarified it.

You also forgot that one of the packages includes Bose speakers system instead of the "regular" cheap ones, memory package, power telescoping steering wheel, custom leather wrapped interior, and a few other little things. Those things may not add two much weight, but nonetheless will add weight, which changes the weight of the car.

Yes to you....... but some would consider that to be around 900 lbs

So because I chose to argue with you, I'm an idiot now? You're basically calling yourself an idiot as well since you wasted just as many pages.

Although I've said this to you many times, it doesn't seem to register. Learn how to scroll back and read. I said they were unverified and clarified it to you a trillion times, but you keep repeating that I deem them all fraudulent and deceitful.

Nice try to embed Fikse into this. I never doubted Fikse judgment. You seem to keep inserting him into all your discussions. You pointed to some random dynos from dragtimes that were simply un-verified. They could be lightly modded dynos or they could be stock. None of us really know. A friend of mine and I were arguing about this before, and to prove a point to me, he signed on to dragtimes.com, then uploaded a time slip, a dyno sheet, and a picture of his 350Z. And yes, his data was posted to the website with no problems. He then added a few time slips for E55s and the time slips still posted fine. He later modified the posts, as he created them only to prove a point. Dragtimes is a great website, and I love it dearly but people can post all kinds of things.

That's funny coming from a guy who worships magazine tests, and Improvises as he goes along. Is that what Improv stands for? Whenever you run out of words, you Improvise?

Wow, that shows how classy Improv really is. How intellectual and polite? You kept throwing the personal attacks one after the other because I disagreed with you and would not bow to your argument. I'm sure the mods will like this. It's post like this that dirty-up the forum. Then at the end of your posts, you cry: "I won't argue with you anymore, you're bla bla blah....." Why not? So what if we disagree? At least we agree to disagree. That doesn't mean start with the personal attacks