blackbenzz

Patrick is the man when it comes to this stuff and he is one of the nicest guys I've ever met

PTE

Well it is like this . I was looking for a pARTNER to sell the Cams . All the Tuners I Contacted except 1 told me there Customers wanted a velvet smooth idle . Then VRUS-Victor stepped up . I Tied the deal with VRP. End of story. I can not deal with the retail part of the sale . No time and I sold my sole to the Company Devil They are co owner of serveral of my marine engine Ideals / Patents.

I Here you Exotic. and have empathy for your yearning of knowledge. Work the Numbers you have been given , and corrected by me ,Backward, you will have your Kompressor answer. As for the SLR specs , Do what I did , Buy a set ( MACHc5 ) has a new pair. Find somebody state side to measure them and post your findings. Have somebody pull your engine or do it your self. Sometimes you got to find the answer yourself. Buy a set of VRP cams. Install them & start measuring them , you will find there isn't any more space or area to change ramp angles ,Lift or additional over lap. Let alone finding the needed lobe clearance in the cylinder cam Valley.Even If you modified the valve guides and springs to get to use more lift, You would have to pull the pistons , have them flycut for clearance to keep the piston from hitting the valves. Oh Yeah , Here's a test for you. Whats that Flat spot ground into lobe for? Keep pushing that envelope . I'm only Human I might have missed something Cheers PTEngineering

Exotic-metal55

Patrick, Thank you for the information and the other key hints that will save us street guys a lot of time.. Sounds like VRP may have the best cam that MB left room for? Nice to know that you assited with that design. Really suprised to hear that there is no room for FREE horsepower (Lift).. Lift under .295 sounds really low.

I feel for you on all those cam companies turning you away.. It seems once Lunati and all the others merged,, they became to big for their pants.. Slowing economy may bring them back to the table..

Can you clarify what specs you were referring to in your reply below.. I lost you on that one.

I plan to have a converter built to help move this 4500lb car. All I wanted on Cam info was to help choose a correct STR (stall torque ratio) for the power range I want. I only want to take a little of the Autobahn out of the car and add a little Houston street into the equation. To many C6 zo6 at all the lights these days..

dyno

thanks Pat
now at least is clear that VRP CAM is a fully yours creature

maybe it's too much Track-Race !? ..what do you think of downgrading it to a Street Race version ?

anybody knows if the CLK DTM's cam is the same as stock .. or not ?

suicidal4life

PTE what is the stock rocker arm ratio on the M113? I have a set laying around that I could measure but I figured you probably have the answer already.

PTE

Hello Again:The stock Rocker arm Ratio is 1.49 to 1 I know it doesn't seem like much lift ,but you have (2) 1.70" intake valves and a single 1.496" exhaust.

Going from .288 to .295 with a rocker ratio of 1.49 , is a good jump. The VRP cam has a bit more lift. And what we sometime forget to account for is the Hydrulic lifter tip built into the other end of the roller rocker. Speaking of rocker tips . Remember it doesn't just go straight up & Down. It Really Swings an Arc. It Contacts bias to the outside edge of the valve stem tip , as it swings downward , it moves across over to the center then to the inside edge. Over a long period of time it will ever so slightly wear the valve guide. This is really cool stuff. So Multi valves , low lift , hi duration, Keeps the wear minumized . Think about the latest 4 valve dual over head cam , Cam direct contact to the valve stem bucket. A lot less parts ! plus they now move the cam timing with Hydrulic slave actuators. now I'm off subject again Cheers _PTEngineering

Exotic-metal55

The rocker ratio brings up another question.. Can we put larger ratio rockers on and how much room is there for extra lift? Any other motors with a larger ratio rocker that we can use?

suicidal4life

Looking at the stock setup I don't see how this would be possible without some serious redesign and cash layout. It's not like a Chevy small block where you can change the ratio (within reason) and just allow the pushrod angle to change a bit to make up for it.

BTW since everyone keeps asking about Cam spec's I dropped some cams off at the local cam grinder today and just picked them up.

2001 S430 cams


2003 CLK55 cams (naturally aspirated)



2006 E55 cams (kompressor)


SLR cams


I don't really know how to read all this and must admit I haven't even really looked at them closely yet. The guy did say he set them up with a 108 degree centerline on all cams to keep the data consistent I don't know exactly what difference that will have on the results? He also wanted to know the rocker ratio which is why I asked PTE.

It only cost me $10 to get them to throw all 4 cams on the machine and measure them so if there is something else that needs measuring or a different centerline to check them at I can get it done pretty cheaply.

Anyone out there want to explain what we are looking at here?


Since the pics are now dead I'll add this link to Marcus Fitzhugh's website. I'm pretty sure the specs he posted over there are from this post.


http://www.fitzhughmedia.com/MBF/camspecs.html

Havoc

Yes, basically our cams are way too mild. As for as lift, it's not the cam's fault; it's the head's. Like PTE said, "let alone finding the needed lobe clearance in the cylinder cam Valley". I believe there is not much clearance left for a larger cam in the cam valley. Our MB heads are just not as race worthy like Ford or Chevy.

Here is a picture of the valve clearance of VRP’s 5.7L with custom forged pistons and VRP's stage 3 heads with aggressive cams and larger ferrera valves.



As for as the piston to valve clearance, there is a small amount of clearance for a margin of safety. We could go with a tad bit more lift, but it’s not worth loosing the margin of safety for such a small gain in hp. I'm all for flycutting these pistons to increase the valve lift, but then we have the issue in the cam valley.
Since the 5.7L is getting disassembled, I asked Victor (again) to see if we could go with longer rockers, but I already know the answer…it’s not worth loosing the margin of safety for such a small gain in hp. Victor went as far as he could go with the stage 3 heads…better than spending 25K to get a new head mold where we could get all the lift we want.

I recommend getting VRP’s cams or better yet, their Stage 3 Heads and call it a day!

dyno

X-MAS already .... what a piece of meat !?!

our cams (and Slr's too) are more tight lipped at TDC than was info about them .. till yesterday.
huge LSA ... need Duration

Exotic-metal55

suicidal4life ,,,,, Holy ****avos!!! Now that is members working together.. I would have never dreamed to see the CAM report on all those cams Live!! Wow,, Thank you!

Havoc, Thank you for the pictures and inside info on clearance issues we have.. From what you are saying,, most the gains should be in having good head work and not the cams?

Havoc

Not really. The VRP cams are currently the most aggressive cams available and provide 30rwhp (@ peak) and 40rwtq (@ 4,000RPM). Power increase starts right at 2,600RPM all the way to redline so they are a great upgrade.

Kleemann cams are profiled after the Schrick stock cams and the SLR are slightly more aggressive than Schrick & Kleemann cams but not by much.

Race porting the heads and adding larger valves will definitely help the VRP cams flow more air and is a must have in my book.

What I was trying to say is that I would like to see our engines have a huge lift cam like Ford or Chevy engines, but I believe the reason we can't have one is because of the way our heads are made. The cam valley is tight and the valve train is different. If we were to modify the cam valley to fit a bigger lobe higher lift camshaft, then the valve train will probably have to get upgraded. We decided not to go that far for now, but perhaps when I rebuild my 5.7L, then I’ll look into it some more.

I wish I could make my 55Kompressor sound like this Z06 at idle…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG65mcICyuY

blackbenzz

I don't think claims can be made based on one car and one dyno plot. Until I see more data, I am going to have to say this is not a typical result of the VRP cams (drop in and with no tune)

chiromikey

bb's right havoc. you're making claims and really have nothing to base it on...at least not yet.

Havoc

Then I guess whatever power my 5.7L makes you won't believe that either.

I pulled this info from VRP's website and it's based on this dyno chart.

dyno

maybe another Magic to come with the same data sheet for the PTE/VRP cams ?!

blackbenzz

You are being childish. I just stated that basing results off of a sample number of n=1 is not very good practice. Ask any statistician and they will tell you that. The car this dyno is based off of had a custom tune prior to the cam install and the numbers can be very different on another car with a different tune or no tune at all. This has been seen across multiple different VRP cam cars. If you want to have an intellectual conversation we can do that, but if you want to just throw out asinine comments, then I wont respond.

Exotic-metal55

Now 30 rwhp above the curve is not to bad for a cam upgrade but one mans 30 can be another’s 15 .. Based on all the info shown / posted and without seeing several dynos ,, it could be fair to say that the cams just don’t have room to be a "great" bang for the buck? I personally need to see more info to move into the cam arena but it sounds like Patrick/VRP got all they could out of what they had to work with.. They sure did the research and deserve to profit from it..

At this point,, I would rather have a great set of heads done by one of the few porters that knows velocity can be more important than "big"flow numbers. That also takes time to find out or use someone form a past experience. With a great set of heads,, then we can just BOOST up and let the SC be the big cam for us..

Max.H

If you are porting the heads. Don't forget the bigger valves The head can only flow as much as the valves will permit air into the cylinders.

Exotic-metal55

[QUOTE=suicidal4life;3004898]


2006 E55 cams (kompressor)


SLR cams



Anyone notice how close these cams seem to be? A lot of advance differences but lift and duration are close.. Actually the SLR has less intake duration? Lobe seperation is a little tighter too.. Any thoughts? I was expecting to see a more aggressive SLR cam ..

Max, Yes, larger valves I assumed were a given but I was not clear on that post.

dyno

all very strange: SLR's Exhaust lift .410 is lower than 55K's .418

besides that, maybe could be enough have Ex opening sooner and closing still later.
and a bit sooner the Iopening, too
just to avoid raising idle more than about 50rpm

Havoc

Right, but if you're talking High Boost, then the cast pistons become an issue. The stock cast pistons are high performance, but the amount of boost and power they can handle is unknown. If you're producing 700+hp, then it might be in your best interest to sleeve the cylinders and install forged pistons.

edit: BTW, when I mention VRP's stage 3 heads, I'm also speaking of their cams as well. Even though the cams are sold separately, I speak of them as a total package with the stage 3 heads.

Exotic-metal55

If we are talking 700 RWHP, Then a whole lot of things need to be changed before pistons.. Without fuel, even forged will go KABOOOM! Injectors, fuel lines, fuel pumps, Fuel filters, Axles, drive shafts, Tranny work and much more.. Every fuel lines and pumps will have to be taken apart and inspected for design flaws or changed completley.. I have seen calcualtions based on advertised pump flow and fuel line diameters be way off and blow motors. Even having fuel on a dyno , does not mean you will LIVE on the street.. All it takes is one little plastic screen or restriction in a line or pump to ruin a whole build in real time..

500RWHP can not beat 700RWHP on a DYNO but 500RWHP can out ET 700 HP in the 1/4 mile. It all depends on what floats a persons boat.. Mine is 1/4 ET and German Luxury.

Havoc,, No doubt you seem to be building one of the meanest Benz`s around.. Very nice project!!


(My Blower head combo comment)::I was thinking more the lines of deferring my $4000 cam money into a great set of heads/valves and more boost. Same money but a lot more POWER .. A little better cam is not much interest at this point.. 15-30rwhp from a cam is ok but 70-80 from great heads and more boost is a lot more attractive. :0

blackbenzz

Good luck with that, keep us posted. Just remember, with more boost comes more heat and the faster your engine has to spin that sc. At a certain point (I don't know where), increasing boost will start to lose power due to heat and parasitic loss.

jangy

Very nice turn in content here!! I like it. That was a sweet move by suicidal4life. Nice step up .

Just to add my 25cents so that more bystanders understand.....

I dunno that you can make the claim that the VRP cam is 100% PTE or that 100% of his efforts are in it. Yes, they made a deal but what happened after? I think PTE has more to offer us but we don't seem to have a channel to do that. It is unfortunate as he is a clear expert in exactly where we want to go (internals and cooling). I miss his and Finny's regular contributions and openness.

Also, there is the issue of the VRP cams in VRP cars (with VRP/PC tunes) vs VRP cams in other cars with other tunes. To BB's point, we have to be clear about making claims of "drop-in", specific gains or even performance, since each car will run differently given how custom all of this is. He got caught up in the hype and was burned. To Havoc's defence, he has a great attitude and is PUSHING that envelope. He just needs to keep in mind that his car is a one-off, no matter how much VRP wants it to be a "package".