Originally Posted by 220S

I've been shopping tuners and have ruled out MHP. For one reason and one reason only. NOT because of what people on MBWorld have said about him. But BECAUSE of the WAY the guy responds to criticism. (and I've been following the "tuner saga" here for a while)

It's absolutely bizarre. I've never experienced a business person with such insecurity go on the defensive. The guy must have Sarah Palin DNA or something.

Seriously, why would someone who is doing so well and offers such an excellent product, and with big paying customers around the world (and able to distribute their product through MB/BMW/Audi dealers, etc.), get on the internet and act this way? It makes no sense whatsoever. And why not just do a refund and let it go? (And let the ego go, too, btw)

If I sell a great product and am the very best out there, and doing a great business, then there's no reason for me to get defensive over some forum members who are pissed off about me and my product. Why the hell should I care? So what? I know I'm the best and I'm doing a profitable business.

I've seen complaints about Renntech and Kleemann's products. But I've never seen those companies get on forums and start defending themselves in a school boy manner.

I've read his posts on AD and it's kinda mind boggling. And that's what has put a sour taste in my mouth with MHP. Not people bashing MHP on forums. I'm an adult and I can do my own research. But when a business goes on the extreme defense like that, I'm running the other way.

I know he doesn't do the tunes himself (hires other people) and I've spoken with Dave recently about tuning (which is odd because Andy says he's no longer using Dave ) It doesn't matter if Andy's just the front and people behind him are doing the work. And that even makes the whole defensive response by him more odd. He's not the "skilled artist with the ego," but he sure acts like it Why?

I'm in a competitive field but we don't attack each other and claim superiority (and it's all about IP in my work.) The top people in my business just go about doing their best work and let it speak for itself. And we get criticism everyday. So what.

In the end, the product talks. And if it's the best then there's no reason to give a damn what other people might say about it, good or bad.

It's just stupid childish sh*t otherwise.

Originally Posted by rarfinancial

The ECU that MHP attempted to tune I bought just for MHP to tune. As a matter of fact Andy is the on that ordered it for me So with that said let me say that I have spoken to 2 guys Andy was using to tune the ECU's

Originally Posted by rarfinancial

Lets end this right now. ANDY YOU TUNED MY ECU, RIGHT? O.K SO WE AGREE ON THAT, .. I WAS NOT HAPPY THE FIRST TIME, RIGHT? O.K. WE AGREE ON THAT.... THEN YOU SAID YOU WILL MAKE IT RIGHT, RIGHT? OK WE AGREE ON THAT... THE SECOND TUNE I WENT TO THE DYNO SHOP AND COULD NOT FINISH THE PULL BECAUSE THE CAR WOULD NOT GO OVER 150mph RIGHT? OK WE AGREE ON THAT, RIGHT? You then said if I wait for you to get your new cable for the ECU that you would tune my box with the greatest tune ever RIGHT?, WE AGREE ON THAT... so I sat and sat and waited and waited..
As we can ALL see I WAS NOT HAPPY from the start RIGHT? OK WE ALL AGREE ON THAT RIGHT? O.K...
I will make this last post to ANDY:
You do what you think is right .. If you feel you mhp oweS me a full refund , then send the refund. If you feel MHP only owes me half a refund, then send half.. and if you feel MHP treated me right and I got what I paid for then PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME A REFUND... It is now up to MHP to end this. Please MHP let us know what you decide so we can all move on.. Thanks for your time and sorry for all the caps lol
I even drove the car 350 mile on race fuel as Andy said the ECU needs time to map it's self. that's alot of $$ in race fuel.. (350miles?)

Originally Posted by juicee63

Just challenge Andy to a few runs at MIR. If you beat his C63 in Your Vellano show car he pays for your trip and refunds your monies.

From reading the other site it does not seem like you will see a cent from MHP, unless you file a civil suit.

Those seeking ECU tuning get everything in writing and make certain you have proven methods to calculate performance changes.

Rick seems like you have been paying a steep price for leading the 63 modification train.

MHP vs TEAM AMG for the flag and the money

Originally Posted by rarfinancial

Is MHP not going to Answer? And hooley I am not using the MHP tune .. It didn't work.. I want to see a reply from SIR ANDY..

Originally Posted by rarfinancial

Lets just say to date only James from ACG & RennTech have proven service to me.. and one more but that's a BIG secret lol

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Well, he can't answer you here... he's banned here. He's replied (a lot) at the AD site - maybe post there...?



Were/are you happy with the Goodspeed headers, or did that not work out either? Sorry to hear it hasn't been the smoothest of sailing with advancing your CLS63's performance - hope you get it to where you want it to be in the end.

Originally Posted by rarfinancial

Lets end this right now. ANDY YOU TUNED MY ECU, RIGHT? O.K SO WE AGREE ON THAT, .. I WAS NOT HAPPY THE FIRST TIME, RIGHT? O.K. WE AGREE ON THAT.... THEN YOU SAID YOU WILL MAKE IT RIGHT, RIGHT? OK WE AGREE ON THAT... THE SECOND TUNE I WENT TO THE DYNO SHOP AND COULD NOT FINISH THE PULL BECAUSE THE CAR WOULD NOT GO OVER 150mph RIGHT? OK WE AGREE ON THAT, RIGHT? You then said if I wait for you to get your new cable for the ECU that you would tune my box with the greatest tune ever RIGHT?, WE AGREE ON THAT... so I sat and sat and waited and waited..
As we can ALL see I WAS NOT HAPPY from the start RIGHT? OK WE ALL AGREE ON THAT RIGHT? O.K...
I will make this last post to ANDY:
You do what you think is right .. If you feel you mhp oweS me a full refund , then send the refund. If you feel MHP only owes me half a refund, then send half.. and if you feel MHP treated me right and I got what I paid for then PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME A REFUND... It is now up to MHP to end this. Please MHP let us know what you decide so we can all move on.. Thanks for your time and sorry for all the caps lol
I even drove the car 350 mile on race fuel as Andy said the ECU needs time to map it's self. that's alot of $$ in race fuel.. (350miles?)

Originally Posted by EuroB6

bigbodybeeenz....your E92 is beautiful. Great looking car!

Originally Posted by Fantasm

Was just thinking the same, Nice M3!

Originally Posted by bigbodybeeenz

Thanks guys!

Originally Posted by 220S

I believe he means intellectual property. Which brings up an interesting issue. How much IP is there, and who really owns it when it's basically a re-mapped ECU designed by another mfg.

In my own field, IP is a very thorny issue. If you take what's already there and make some tweaks, then the IP may or may not be changed enough to be recognized as new property. In addition you are basing the work on someone else's IP (in a tuner's case, Daimler AG property.)

This falls under "derivative works." Derivative works are anything that is based (derived) from an existing body of work (original authorship.) A work can be derived from an existing copyright, etc..

If you take the copyrighted source code of any program and physically modify it (revise the program) then you've created a derivative work of that program.

However, the law states that only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. The owner is generally the author or someone who has obtained rights from the author.

This is an issue with tuners and which is why MB doesn't recognize it (and fights any trends towards open source flashing, etc.) and to keep their own IP difficult to crack. Despite the SAE J2534 pass thru standard law.

Tuners are, to a certain degree, pirates of existing IP. The irony is that the tuners want to maintain their own IP rights, yet they are utilizing pre-existing IP from the original mfg. They are deriving works, but without the consent of the original author.

Under the law, tuners may actually have no IP rights to their own re-map. So, it's an area of law that's fuzzy. Tuners may claim IP but how that holds up in a court of law is not exactly clear. They are taking existing proprietary password protected code and unraveling it, and then claiming to be changing enough to therefore warrant new IP. And they password protect it. So they are actually doing themselves what they don't want the consumer of the tune to do. Hypocritical to a certain degree.

Not all tuners use password protection, etc., forcing consumers to resort to reflashing completely, etc.. Some think it's not good business practice to do so. But it's probably done only because the tuners themselves don't trust each other. And so the consumer suffers.

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

I've not had to deal with the "IP" issue myself but have it from a reliable source (someone that has spent time in court discussing the matter) that calibration data can not be copyrighted like "code" and thus MB/AMG does not have standing to address the tuner issue.....

Originally Posted by Mikesamg

I didn't say anything but earlier like 15 minutes ago I was reading this thread and thought the same. Very clean looking, the wheels look great on it. I love the 3 series coupe! So tempting with all the deals they have but I'm trying to be patient I want a 5 series and the rumors may come true about a TT M5!!

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

The new V8tts respond a lot like the 6tts in that the WHOLE torque curve rises, not just peak. If you’ve driven a 335 with firmware, you know what I mean.

You (and I) may very well find that the V8tt five series with firmware will be a real monster. If it is anything like the seven you are likely to see almost 100 ft-lbs from just off idle to the top J

Originally Posted by ChicagoX

Good post ^^^^

Ironic that someone who has 'appropriated' others' IP (namely ours) and re-sold to same customer should make such a fuss......

Originally Posted by ChicagoX

Good post ^^^^

Ironic that someone who has 'appropriated' others' IP (namely ours) and re-sold to same customer should make such a fuss......

Originally Posted by 220S

The idea that a remap is any tuner's IP probably has no legal bearing whatsoever.

Tuners can only protect themselves via encryption, passwords, and/or disclosure agreements. And not under the pretense of IP as any sort of exclusive use right. And that would mean that any end user disclosure agreements are also legally weak if there cannot be any exclusive proprietary rights established.

I don't believe any tuner can legally argue that their software tune is proprietary since it's derivative to begin with. There was a huge case a few years ago that set precedent for how difficult it is to claim derivative code as proprietary.

And despite the fact that tuning the ECU is a "calibration," the process uses digital files and flash technology. It could even involve case law under DMCA.

But the reality is that the ECU tuning industry is pretty small in the overall scheme of things, and any supposed "stealing of IP" in this context has very little meaning to the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

I've been blasted for this in the past, but I'll say it again here. Please do not shoot the messenger as I am not condoning the process, only pointing out the reality of the situation.

There is very little difference between taking the cover off the Holley four barrel carburetor and checking out the emulsion tubes, mains and idle jets and the process of pulling calibration data from an ECU and looking at changes in timing, mixture and most importantly, torque or other performance limits. Once a customer buys the product, it is theirs and, barring any agreement not to look, they are free to "peek under the hood". The only practical difference is the more complicated electronic screwdriver needed to do the peeking.

In the absence of the correct tools, a customer need only record ECU data to determine changes in mixture, timing and the like. With advanced tools, the customer can even determine when limits have been met and when a "tune" permits more performance before triggering a particular limit switch. All of this can be done without ever peeking inside the box.

In my ideal world, an emphasis would be put on bringing value to the customer relationship by providing an evolving tuning relationship whereby the customer can continue to participate in the tuner’s ongoing development process. I find that these types of relationships are enduring, rewarding and tend to span many different projects.