ANY BENEFITS FROM NITROGEN FILLED TIRES?
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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E-ZGO 53hp., 1999 E 430 sport, 2004 E 55, 2008 Tahoe LTZ on 24"s
ANY BENEFITS FROM NITROGEN FILLED TIRES?
Wow that thread went to h3ll fast.
Yes, the TPMS work much better and is more accurate.
Lets see..
Tire $350.00
Rim $800.00
TPS $210.00
Nitrogen fill $8.00
It is trickle down from the aircraft industry. The FAA requires it on most
Jet & heavy transport aircraft. The reason why is, a tire with air in it can explode (auto-ignite) when a tire is filled with nitrogen (an inert gas) it will not explode, it will only burst.
The characteristics of nitrogen make it much more desirable than air alone.
You may find that only the better tire shops have nitrogen, and other things like a Road Force balancers. Never was a fad or gimmick.
More than you ever wanted to know here.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles...009/811094.pdf
Yes, the TPMS work much better and is more accurate.
Lets see..
Tire $350.00
Rim $800.00
TPS $210.00
Nitrogen fill $8.00
It is trickle down from the aircraft industry. The FAA requires it on most
Jet & heavy transport aircraft. The reason why is, a tire with air in it can explode (auto-ignite) when a tire is filled with nitrogen (an inert gas) it will not explode, it will only burst.
The characteristics of nitrogen make it much more desirable than air alone.
You may find that only the better tire shops have nitrogen, and other things like a Road Force balancers. Never was a fad or gimmick.
More than you ever wanted to know here.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles...009/811094.pdf
Last edited by Yacht Master; Sep 10, 2009 at 07:45 PM.
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Prove it. With physics.
With no water in the "air", pure N2 and air will react the same pressure vs temp.
The aircraft burn issue is different and not an automotive concern.
With no water in the "air", pure N2 and air will react the same pressure vs temp.
The aircraft burn issue is different and not an automotive concern.
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From: Mililani, Hawaii
2005 AMG E55
I have it in my tires. Smoke in mirrors or real advantage?!?!? I couldn't tell you. This is the Nitrogen i have in my wheels.
http://www.branick.com/
Here are the benefits...
http://www.branick.com/nitrogen_benefits.php
http://www.branick.com/
Here are the benefits...
http://www.branick.com/nitrogen_benefits.php
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From: Mililani, Hawaii
2005 AMG E55
i'll just copy and paste what the website says:
Benefits of nitrogen...
Benefits of nitrogen...
- Better tire pressure retention – nitrogen migrates through a tire 3 to 4 times slower than oxygen. It may take 6 months to lose 2 psi with nitrogen compared to less than a month with oxygen.
- Improved fuel economy – a result of having the proper air pressure which lessens the rolling resistance. Under-inflated tires have a greater rolling resistance.
- Cooler running tires – tires inflated with nitrogen run cooler than tires inflated with regular air.
- Removal of oxidation – oxygen is a highly reactive element at high temperatures and pressures. Replacing the oxygen with nitrogen helps eliminate the oxidation that damages inner liners and belt packages.
- Improved retreadability – eliminating oxidation also improves the retreadability due to more flexibility in the tire casing. Less tire aging and tire cord rust could very well increase the number of retreadable casings and also increase the number of times a casing can be retreaded.
- Elimination of rim rust – since nitrogen is completely dry, condensation is eliminated which in turn eliminates rim rust.
- On-the-road reliability – tire failures can be significantly reduced which reduces down time and costly service calls.
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a g
Its not like they just said: "Oh, I heard nitrogen is better than dry-air, lets fill our aircraft tires with it". Heat is precisely the ONLY wear reason for tires, reducing heat the the side effects it brings on is viable and desirable in ALL TIRES of ALL KINDS (save solid tires of course).
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
Don't you think that is precisely what aeronautics engineers did?
Its not like they just said: "Oh, I heard nitrogen is better than dry-air, lets fill our aircraft tires with it". Heat is precisely the ONLY wear reason for tires, reducing heat the the side effects it brings on is viable and desirable in ALL TIRES of ALL KINDS (save solid tires of course).
Its not like they just said: "Oh, I heard nitrogen is better than dry-air, lets fill our aircraft tires with it". Heat is precisely the ONLY wear reason for tires, reducing heat the the side effects it brings on is viable and desirable in ALL TIRES of ALL KINDS (save solid tires of course).
The previous statement about why aeronautics use N2 rather than air is the flame issue. N2 stops burning. Not heat generation.
Not sure if higher thermal conductivity is preferred or lower. Air is low. Hydrogen is the highest gas.
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2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
Benefits of nitrogen...
Better tire pressure retention Nope O2 and N2 are basically the same size molecule and would leak at the same rate. Plus I check more often than 6 months, andyou need to adjust more than that for ambient temp changes.
Improved fuel economy – Nope, that implies a problem controlling tire pressure which dry air does not have. Also, this is ONLY a problem for under inflated tires. Over inflated helps fuel economy more.
Cooler running tires – Nope, they have the same thermal conductivity. 0.024 W/mK.
Removal of oxidation – Yep, but over the typical life span of the tires on a normal car, no big deal.
Improved retreadability – If I was a trucker this might be an issue. I am not going to re-tread my speed rated tires.
Elimination of rim rust – Again, if I had steel rims being used for a LONG period of time, maybe. But has anyone here ever had that problem? They rust on the outside far faster than on the inside. And given the infinite number of new rim posts, no one is running with steel.
On-the-road reliability – This just assumes all the previous is true.
Better tire pressure retention Nope O2 and N2 are basically the same size molecule and would leak at the same rate. Plus I check more often than 6 months, andyou need to adjust more than that for ambient temp changes.
Improved fuel economy – Nope, that implies a problem controlling tire pressure which dry air does not have. Also, this is ONLY a problem for under inflated tires. Over inflated helps fuel economy more.
Cooler running tires – Nope, they have the same thermal conductivity. 0.024 W/mK.
Removal of oxidation – Yep, but over the typical life span of the tires on a normal car, no big deal.
Improved retreadability – If I was a trucker this might be an issue. I am not going to re-tread my speed rated tires.
Elimination of rim rust – Again, if I had steel rims being used for a LONG period of time, maybe. But has anyone here ever had that problem? They rust on the outside far faster than on the inside. And given the infinite number of new rim posts, no one is running with steel.
On-the-road reliability – This just assumes all the previous is true.
Last edited by Jon2007E63P30; Sep 9, 2009 at 12:28 AM.
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From: San Diego
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Funny how this topic comes up so often. the truth is that the Nitrogen does have some advantages that are real. I know for a fact that I had no more slow leaks with my HRE's when I used Nitrogen. The size of the molecule explains that. also, the fact that nitrogen will not lead to oxidation or rust or water uptake.
Jon: instead of just comparing pure gases with pure gases, consider that most air stations pump upwards of 10% water in the air that they have in the pressure tanks. Nitrogen has none. So, when you their thermal conductivity is the same, it may not be. Is it because of pure Ntrogen vs just the 80% Nitrogen that air is? Likely not, but the "grade" matters and I have yet to see high grade "air"
BTW, my nitrogen comes from the bottles used in hospitals. I get a certificate stating exact water content, etc.
Working in biotech has its perks.
Jon: instead of just comparing pure gases with pure gases, consider that most air stations pump upwards of 10% water in the air that they have in the pressure tanks. Nitrogen has none. So, when you their thermal conductivity is the same, it may not be. Is it because of pure Ntrogen vs just the 80% Nitrogen that air is? Likely not, but the "grade" matters and I have yet to see high grade "air"
BTW, my nitrogen comes from the bottles used in hospitals. I get a certificate stating exact water content, etc.
Working in biotech has its perks.
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a g
I'm no physicist, so I can't gather any specific physics about the use of N2. But I DO know it is used in airplane tires for more than just protection against flash point explosion.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
Even I can see the differences in oxygen and nitrogen thermal conductivity.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
Even I can see the differences in oxygen and nitrogen thermal conductivity.
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
I'm no physicist, so I can't gather any specific physics about the use of N2. But I DO know it is used in airplane tires for more than just protection against flash point explosion.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
Even I can see the differences in oxygen and nitrogen thermal conductivity.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
Even I can see the differences in oxygen and nitrogen thermal conductivity.
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a g
I found the following:
Thermal Conductivity for Oxygen = .02658 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/008/data.html
Thermal Conductivity for Nitrogen = .02583 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/007/data.html
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a g
I'll link this hear also, because this was discussed before.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...gen-tyres.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...gen-tyres.html
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
Funny how this topic comes up so often. the truth is that the Nitrogen does have some advantages that are real. I know for a fact that I had no more slow leaks with my HRE's when I used Nitrogen. The size of the molecule explains that. also, the fact that nitrogen will not lead to oxidation or rust or water uptake.
Jon: instead of just comparing pure gases with pure gases, consider that most air stations pump upwards of 10% water in the air that they have in the pressure tanks. Nitrogen has none. So, when you their thermal conductivity is the same, it may not be. Is it because of pure Ntrogen vs just the 80% Nitrogen that air is? Likely not, but the "grade" matters and I have yet to see high grade "air"
BTW, my nitrogen comes from the bottles used in hospitals. I get a certificate stating exact water content, etc.
Working in biotech has its perks.
Jon: instead of just comparing pure gases with pure gases, consider that most air stations pump upwards of 10% water in the air that they have in the pressure tanks. Nitrogen has none. So, when you their thermal conductivity is the same, it may not be. Is it because of pure Ntrogen vs just the 80% Nitrogen that air is? Likely not, but the "grade" matters and I have yet to see high grade "air"
BTW, my nitrogen comes from the bottles used in hospitals. I get a certificate stating exact water content, etc.
Working in biotech has its perks.
You can get pretty good air at a shop which uses a lot of air and has dryer to pull out the water. It is no good when you air tools are dripping water.
Now I do not want to be an uneducated a$$ and if someone had posted this link earlier when I asked for a physics answer I would have said "cool".
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf
So O2 leaks 3-4 times faster than N2 regardless of the higher molecular weight.
And yes, you can get a big 6000PSI N2 tank pretty easy.
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It won't cure cancer, but does it have to for us to use it?
Out Of Control!!
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Water! Exactly. That is the ONLY difference with regard to pressure stability and thermal. And I made that point at the beginning.
I don't claim to invent the idea, just remember chemistry class.
You can get pretty good air at a shop which uses a lot of air and has dryer to pull out the water. It is no good when you air tools are dripping water.
The "cleanest" typical air shop will still have upwards of 5% water during warm times.
Now I do not want to be an uneducated a$$ and if someone had posted this link earlier when I asked for a physics answer I would have said "cool".
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf
So O2 leaks 3-4 times faster than N2 regardless of the higher molecular weight.
Yes, main reason i use Nitrogen.
And yes, you can get a big 6000PSI N2 tank pretty easy.
I don't claim to invent the idea, just remember chemistry class.
You can get pretty good air at a shop which uses a lot of air and has dryer to pull out the water. It is no good when you air tools are dripping water.
The "cleanest" typical air shop will still have upwards of 5% water during warm times.
Now I do not want to be an uneducated a$$ and if someone had posted this link earlier when I asked for a physics answer I would have said "cool".
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf
So O2 leaks 3-4 times faster than N2 regardless of the higher molecular weight.
Yes, main reason i use Nitrogen.
And yes, you can get a big 6000PSI N2 tank pretty easy.
Is it worth all the hassle? that is for each enthusiast to decide. Honestly, all of our cars were adequate from the dealership so all mods, really, are optional.
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
All due respect, but why can I not see the same numbers when searching for them?
I found the following:
Thermal Conductivity for Oxygen = .02658 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/008/data.html
Thermal Conductivity for Nitrogen = .02583 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/007/data.html
I found the following:
Thermal Conductivity for Oxygen = .02658 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/008/data.html
Thermal Conductivity for Nitrogen = .02583 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/007/data.html
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
+1000 PSI (now is that with water vapor or without and whatis the gas mix and ......
)I will let you all know what AMG is using during the Stage II event at Laguna on 11/7-8
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A Prius because I'm green
OK it seems like you are on top of this Jon2007E63P30 so first off thanks for the info on this topic. I totally see your point and what is funny is I was up at Thunderhill this last Thursday running the beast. This topic came up from my friend who has an STI and he runs Nitrogen in his tires. A few do actually and the reason they claim is that it will not heat up and expand like regular oxygen filled tires while running on the track. Which in a 20 minutes session his tires become over pressured and causes him to slide all over if he uses regular oxygen. Is this a different situation since the tires are being abused more and extreme heat is being generated as opposed to normal every day use? If you explained enough to answer this question forgive me but I am using my phone so I didn't read the thread in dept.
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i read an argument about the same topic on another forum (wow, way back in the day) and i think the consensus was that it'll make you more consistent on the track, but on a daily driven machine, the benefits don't outweight the cost. i run regular air, since my car will never ever ever ever see any sort of fast or competitive driving (and i like to experiment with different tire pressures all the time, from a comfort + long distance driving perspective)
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Benefits of nitrogen...
Better tire pressure retention Nope O2 and N2 are basically the same size molecule and would leak at the same rate. Plus I check more often than 6 months, andyou need to adjust more than that for ambient temp changes.
Improved fuel economy – Nope, that implies a problem controlling tire pressure which dry air does not have. Also, this is ONLY a problem for under inflated tires. Over inflated helps fuel economy more.
Cooler running tires – Nope, they have the same thermal conductivity. 0.024 W/mK.
Removal of oxidation – Yep, but over the typical life span of the tires on a normal car, no big deal.
Improved retreadability – If I was a trucker this might be an issue. I am not going to re-tread my speed rated tires.
Elimination of rim rust – Again, if I had steel rims being used for a LONG period of time, maybe. But has anyone here ever had that problem? They rust on the outside far faster than on the inside. And given the infinite number of new rim posts, no one is running with steel.
On-the-road reliability – This just assumes all the previous is true.
Better tire pressure retention Nope O2 and N2 are basically the same size molecule and would leak at the same rate. Plus I check more often than 6 months, andyou need to adjust more than that for ambient temp changes.
Improved fuel economy – Nope, that implies a problem controlling tire pressure which dry air does not have. Also, this is ONLY a problem for under inflated tires. Over inflated helps fuel economy more.
Cooler running tires – Nope, they have the same thermal conductivity. 0.024 W/mK.
Removal of oxidation – Yep, but over the typical life span of the tires on a normal car, no big deal.
Improved retreadability – If I was a trucker this might be an issue. I am not going to re-tread my speed rated tires.
Elimination of rim rust – Again, if I had steel rims being used for a LONG period of time, maybe. But has anyone here ever had that problem? They rust on the outside far faster than on the inside. And given the infinite number of new rim posts, no one is running with steel.
On-the-road reliability – This just assumes all the previous is true.
This has been beaten to death guys, doesn't anyone search anymore
Oh you did miss one positive reason for Nitrogen, you car will be lighter as in less money in your wallet to weigh you down
Nitrogen is a BAD joke plained on people that do not know any better.
For Formula1 and IRL sure, it will expand SLIGHTLY less when heated. For an everyday street car give me a break
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... i think the consensus was that it'll make you more consistent on the track, but on a daily driven machine, the benefits don't outweight the cost.
I didn't realize the discussion was about bang for the buck. I thought it was true / false.
i run regular air, since my car will never ever ever ever see any sort of fast or competitive driving...
On the converse, some of our cars see stints of a good 30 minutes of very hard driving each week; on or off the track.
(and i like to experiment with different tire pressures all the time, from a comfort + long distance driving perspective)
I didn't realize the discussion was about bang for the buck. I thought it was true / false.
i run regular air, since my car will never ever ever ever see any sort of fast or competitive driving...
On the converse, some of our cars see stints of a good 30 minutes of very hard driving each week; on or off the track.
(and i like to experiment with different tire pressures all the time, from a comfort + long distance driving perspective)
This thread gets heated for no reason. We are talking things that have the minutest of effects. But, when you are shaving 1000ths, every little bit matters. To each his own. Enjoy your damn cars.
Obviously, if you are not an aggressive driver, N2 is not for you.
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From: San Diego
04 E55, 12 GL 450(wife)
It is obvious that a daily driver may or may not benefit depending on the driver. I drive somewhat aggressively so I plan on giving nitrogen a shot. I have spent soooo much money on mods at this point what is a few bucks invested into what keeps me on the road...
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I didn't realize the discussion was about bang for the buck. I thought it was true / false.
On the converse, some of our cars see stints of a good 30 minutes of very hard driving each week; on or off the track.
On the converse, some of our cars see stints of a good 30 minutes of very hard driving each week; on or off the track.
also, i didn't say everybody should run air -- i said that i do, because there aren't benefits for me. i'm not searching for that last 1/1000th at the track. i think it's a waste of money for how i drive my car. what's wrong with that? *shrugs*
