Yacht Master

Wow that thread went to h3ll fast.

Yes, the TPMS work much better and is more accurate.
Lets see..
Tire $350.00
Rim $800.00
TPS $210.00

Nitrogen fill $8.00

It is trickle down from the aircraft industry. The FAA requires it on most
Jet & heavy transport aircraft. The reason why is, a tire with air in it can explode (auto-ignite) when a tire is filled with nitrogen (an inert gas) it will not explode, it will only burst.
The characteristics of nitrogen make it much more desirable than air alone.
You may find that only the better tire shops have nitrogen, and other things like a Road Force balancers. Never was a fad or gimmick.

More than you ever wanted to know here.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles...009/811094.pdf

Jon2007E63P30

Prove it. With physics.

With no water in the "air", pure N2 and air will react the same pressure vs temp.

The aircraft burn issue is different and not an automotive concern.

dpavid

I have it in my tires. Smoke in mirrors or real advantage?!?!? I couldn't tell you. This is the Nitrogen i have in my wheels.

http://www.branick.com/

Here are the benefits...

http://www.branick.com/nitrogen_benefits.php

dpavid

i'll just copy and paste what the website says:

Benefits of nitrogen...

• Better tire pressure retention – nitrogen migrates through a tire 3 to 4 times slower than oxygen. It may take 6 months to lose 2 psi with nitrogen compared to less than a month with oxygen.
• Improved fuel economy – a result of having the proper air pressure which lessens the rolling resistance. Under-inflated tires have a greater rolling resistance.
• Cooler running tires – tires inflated with nitrogen run cooler than tires inflated with regular air.
• Removal of oxidation – oxygen is a highly reactive element at high temperatures and pressures. Replacing the oxygen with nitrogen helps eliminate the oxidation that damages inner liners and belt packages.
• Improved retreadability – eliminating oxidation also improves the retreadability due to more flexibility in the tire casing. Less tire aging and tire cord rust could very well increase the number of retreadable casings and also increase the number of times a casing can be retreaded.
• Elimination of rim rust – since nitrogen is completely dry, condensation is eliminated which in turn eliminates rim rust.
• On-the-road reliability – tire failures can be significantly reduced which reduces down time and costly service calls.

RedG

Don't you think that is precisely what aeronautics engineers did?

Its not like they just said: "Oh, I heard nitrogen is better than dry-air, lets fill our aircraft tires with it". Heat is precisely the ONLY wear reason for tires, reducing heat the the side effects it brings on is viable and desirable in ALL TIRES of ALL KINDS (save solid tires of course).

Jon2007E63P30

This would be true IF the thermal conductivity of nitrogen and oxygen were different. Since they are the SAME, it makes no difference.

The previous statement about why aeronautics use N2 rather than air is the flame issue. N2 stops burning. Not heat generation.

Not sure if higher thermal conductivity is preferred or lower. Air is low. Hydrogen is the highest gas.

Jon2007E63P30

Benefits of nitrogen...
Better tire pressure retention Nope O2 and N2 are basically the same size molecule and would leak at the same rate. Plus I check more often than 6 months, andyou need to adjust more than that for ambient temp changes.
Improved fuel economy – Nope, that implies a problem controlling tire pressure which dry air does not have. Also, this is ONLY a problem for under inflated tires. Over inflated helps fuel economy more.
Cooler running tires – Nope, they have the same thermal conductivity. 0.024 W/mK.
Removal of oxidation – Yep, but over the typical life span of the tires on a normal car, no big deal.
Improved retreadability – If I was a trucker this might be an issue. I am not going to re-tread my speed rated tires.
Elimination of rim rust – Again, if I had steel rims being used for a LONG period of time, maybe. But has anyone here ever had that problem? They rust on the outside far faster than on the inside. And given the infinite number of new rim posts, no one is running with steel.
On-the-road reliability – This just assumes all the previous is true.

jangy

Funny how this topic comes up so often. the truth is that the Nitrogen does have some advantages that are real. I know for a fact that I had no more slow leaks with my HRE's when I used Nitrogen. The size of the molecule explains that. also, the fact that nitrogen will not lead to oxidation or rust or water uptake.

Jon: instead of just comparing pure gases with pure gases, consider that most air stations pump upwards of 10% water in the air that they have in the pressure tanks. Nitrogen has none. So, when you their thermal conductivity is the same, it may not be. Is it because of pure Ntrogen vs just the 80% Nitrogen that air is? Likely not, but the "grade" matters and I have yet to see high grade "air"

BTW, my nitrogen comes from the bottles used in hospitals. I get a certificate stating exact water content, etc.

Working in biotech has its perks.

RedG

I'm no physicist, so I can't gather any specific physics about the use of N2. But I DO know it is used in airplane tires for more than just protection against flash point explosion.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Even I can see the differences in oxygen and nitrogen thermal conductivity.

Jon2007E63P30

Uh, how? They are the same 0.024 and your reference only points to the accuracy of determining it.

RedG

All due respect, but why can I not see the same numbers when searching for them?

I found the following:

Thermal Conductivity for Oxygen = .02658 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/008/data.html

Thermal Conductivity for Nitrogen = .02583 W(m K)
http://www.periodictable.com/Elements/007/data.html

psuball1

I see everyones point. I do believe that the nitrogen will have advantages for heat reduction and tire longevity but is it worth $15 per tire?

RedG

I'll link this hear also, because this was discussed before.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...gen-tyres.html

Jon2007E63P30

Water! Exactly. That is the ONLY difference with regard to pressure stability and thermal. And I made that point at the beginning.

You can get pretty good air at a shop which uses a lot of air and has dryer to pull out the water. It is no good when you air tools are dripping water.

Now I do not want to be an uneducated a$$ and if someone had posted this link earlier when I asked for a physics answer I would have said "cool".

http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf

So O2 leaks 3-4 times faster than N2 regardless of the higher molecular weight.

And yes, you can get a big 6000PSI N2 tank pretty easy.

jangy

Mine is free, but the tires are almost $400 each. It really comes to how much time do you spend between rotations, etc. checking or adjusting tire pressure. If little to none, then don't do it. The chances of any of our tires being on long enough to get enough oxidation cracks to matter is minimal. If slow leaks or the risk of running low bothers you. add it as some peace of mind.

It won't cure cancer, but does it have to for us to use it?

jangy

Exactly, and the tank of nitrogen is medical grade with less than 0.1% water. That can make some difference.

Is it worth all the hassle? that is for each enthusiast to decide. Honestly, all of our cars were adequate from the dealership so all mods, really, are optional.

Jon2007E63P30

OK, your reference is more accurate than the one I found. But the difference is <3%. You will just not see that.

Jon2007E63P30

TRUTH

+1000 PSI (now is that with water vapor or without and whatis the gas mix and ......)

I will let you all know what AMG is using during the Stage II event at Laguna on 11/7-8

Mikesamg

OK it seems like you are on top of this Jon2007E63P30 so first off thanks for the info on this topic. I totally see your point and what is funny is I was up at Thunderhill this last Thursday running the beast. This topic came up from my friend who has an STI and he runs Nitrogen in his tires. A few do actually and the reason they claim is that it will not heat up and expand like regular oxygen filled tires while running on the track. Which in a 20 minutes session his tires become over pressured and causes him to slide all over if he uses regular oxygen. Is this a different situation since the tires are being abused more and extreme heat is being generated as opposed to normal every day use? If you explained enough to answer this question forgive me but I am using my phone so I didn't read the thread in dept.

cheez80

i read an argument about the same topic on another forum (wow, way back in the day) and i think the consensus was that it'll make you more consistent on the track, but on a daily driven machine, the benefits don't outweight the cost. i run regular air, since my car will never ever ever ever see any sort of fast or competitive driving (and i like to experiment with different tire pressures all the time, from a comfort + long distance driving perspective)

MRAMG1

+1 to ALL of the above.

This has been beaten to death guys, doesn't anyone search anymore

Oh you did miss one positive reason for Nitrogen, you car will be lighter as in less money in your wallet to weigh you down

Nitrogen is a BAD joke plained on people that do not know any better.

For Formula1 and IRL sure, it will expand SLIGHTLY less when heated. For an everyday street car give me a break

jangy

What does experimenting with pressures have to do with air? Do you use gas pumps? If so, you are adding so much noise into your study that it becomes once again a matter of preference, just like using N2. I could argue that N2 would be more consistent. You fill a 5 gallon tank with spout and put it in the trunk (like I do). Done.

This thread gets heated for no reason. We are talking things that have the minutest of effects. But, when you are shaving 1000ths, every little bit matters. To each his own. Enjoy your damn cars.

Obviously, if you are not an aggressive driver, N2 is not for you.

psuball1

It is obvious that a daily driver may or may not benefit depending on the driver. I drive somewhat aggressively so I plan on giving nitrogen a shot. I have spent soooo much money on mods at this point what is a few bucks invested into what keeps me on the road...

cheez80

wow, tough crowd. why shouldn't the data point of bang for the buck enter into this discussion? filling the tires with nitrogen costs more than a mount + gsp7900 balancing for me and that adds up...

also, i didn't say everybody should run air -- i said that i do, because there aren't benefits for me. i'm not searching for that last 1/1000th at the track. i think it's a waste of money for how i drive my car. what's wrong with that? *shrugs*

JAYCL600

I ran 11.00 with normal air and I ran a 10.99 with nitrogen, proof is in the ET!!!!











just teasing