Georgee6086

80

E55Greasemonkey

30 degrees. That's the story so far... No matter what I have tried, the best I can do is 30F above ambient max IAT. Compare that to 60F above ambient without the meth spraying. That's how I need to compare setups..IAT rise over ambient. If it's 85F outside, I see 122+- halfway through 3rd gear. The daily weather changes make it hard to compare my tests. The other day it was 98F ambient...my IAT hit 133. That may sound high but keep in mind that same run without meth hit 160F!! I don't see any (or much) fuel dumping at 133F but can see the AFR drop into the 10's at 160F as the ecu dumps fuel to cool the cylinders. I have also observed the IAT sensor getting wet..giving lower readings than ambient. This is from evaporation of the fluid on the sensor when I let off the throttle. I relocated a second IAT sensor further upstream and this effect is less pronounced. Right now I'm running a #1 pre SC and #1 post SC. I went to the smallest nozzle..to work my way back up if needed. Once again a 50/50 mix had almost no cooling benefit to the IAT. Once again I tried 100% water. It did show the best cooling but the car was down on power. I went back to 25% meth/75% water and immediately felt the power increase once the new mix worked it's way from the trunk tank to the engine. I lost about 5F of cooling with the 25/75% vs 100% but the power is better. Now that the mix is decided, on to some more controller testing. I brought the pump pressure up tonight and hope to test again this weekend.

BagMan

Thanks for the update. It seems like you should see better cooling. You still running that modified IC?

From all the reading I've been doing, it seems like a single nozzle post IC/pre IAT sensor is tried and true. Shardul used the same kit as you. #10 nozzle triggered at 9lbs and kept IATs 15 deg over ambient. Bramage, Denroll and others have had great results with similar setups as well.

My only concern with this setup is that it might be just cooling the IAT sensor, fooling it to deliver full timing even when it should pull some for safety. But these guys have been running it so long, it's probably not a concern.

RBJ got good results with the nozzles after the IAT sensor, which make no sense to me. His sensor should have been seeing temps of 150+ causing the ECU to pull 9.5* of timing. Can't argue with his results though

E55Greasemonkey

Still running the modified intercooler. Dumped out my heet/water mix becuase I lost track of the mix..added half a bottle of HEET and the cooling went away...so decided to start over and pick up some pure meth from the local speed shop, then mixed 10/90 water. Ambient temp here about 91F and humid. Ran both IAT locations, temp held between 124-128F regardless of which sensor on highway pulls. Only difference in IAT locations is with the factory location I saw the massive temp drops after letting off, 70F, 80F, as the moisture evaporated off the sensor. The #1 post IC I'm sure now is a bit too small. But even before with bigger nozzles I did not see much improvement in cooling. Probably a #3 there would work, but I'm not pulling the SC off again anytime soon.

I'm sorry to say this, but in this heat for anyone to say at 90+ ambient they only hit 105F is B.S. Too bad none of you guys live closer so we could compare real world. Sure, my setup can hold 5F over ambient several minutes after a cold start, or a few miles from the house. But get the car hot with back-to-back runs, and 15F over ambient? Sorry, I just have a hard time believing it. I find it interesting those who say it works haven't posted any dyno numbers with/without, or 1/4 mile times with/without. Maybe It's just that I'm a bit frustrated because of all the time, money, and hard work (pulling the SC off multiple times) I've done, and overall I'm really not impressed with the meth injection at all. My car still seems to run better with it, but just not that impressed. Maybe you can soak the IAT with a #10 nozzle and see some low IAT readings but what is that doing for power?

Regardless, I'm going to schedule a dyno run next week.

BagMan

Yeah. The humidity we have down here in FL is something else. Not many other places have to deal with both heat and crazy humidity we get. Kinds of like how those misting fans work out in AZ at bus stops and stuff. Those don't work here in FL, just adds more humidity without cooling.

The good news is that you will have 5 more months of consistent weather to conduct your testing.

You said that the 3 & 7 nozzles made the car run like an animal. Why did you switch?

Denroll

I had one of the surge tanks off today. Took a couple of pics of my nozzle location:

BagMan

What's the best spot to get boost pressure?

Hulk

Boost pressure off the surge tank

Denroll, you are spraying the iat sensor

Bramage

If you see a drop in AIT when you let off, the vacuum from the engine is sucking your mix. Do you have a solenoid or check valve close to the nozzle? (in engine bay)

I honestly think you are making this too difficult. The set up is straight forward. As I said previously, any nozzle pre-intecooler is a waste and a #10 or #12 post intercooler is approx the correct sizing I use 10, handsome D uses 12

Mix should be 50/50. Anything stronger than that is a waste of meth. Unless you are tuned for the added fuel (which you are not) water cools better than alcohol. 50/50 gives you the benefit of knock suppression. For cooling only, Water works better. Hulk, Denroll is spraying opposite AIT sensor. I am 6 inches forward of that just after core. As much as I didn't really like his placement, we do not see significantly difference results. (Note: My concern: It will trick the AIT sensor showing too low - that dont happen. I guess the charged air is like a big pimp hand BANG! alright - Grease, you are getting close to losing your meth card and being required to remove your kit. Just sayin'


Ambient Temp: 81



Ambient Temp 86




One more thing regarding mix: (from AEM)


Methanol is a toxic and highly flammable chemical. 100% Methanol ignites easily and burns vigorously with an almost undetectable flame. Methanol can be absorbed through the skin and even small amounts can cause blindness or even death. Using this fluid at high pressures, without dilution, in an under-hood environment with nylon lines and push-to-connect fittings is very unsafe. The performance advantages of using greater than 50% methanol concentrations are small, if they exist at all. However, the safety issues are very real and far outweigh any perceived benefit of running high concentrations of methanol.

jcjmw

E55greasemonkey, thanks for all the info! Keep it coming. I certainly have learned a lot from your tests.

Also, if I understood redbulljnky, he had meth post iat - in the surge tanks.
His "IATs never went over 110 because I had ice in the tank and two HE with two pumps (one rear mounted) and it was 48*." So I think you are right E55greasemonkey, those that have kept very low IATs in relation to ambiant temp had meth and other cooling aids.

E55Greasemonkey

Bramage, "You will take my meth card when you pry it from my cold, dead hands."

I have a dyno appointment Wednesday. 3 runs, first with meth off, then on, then back off again. Then all this silly business will be behind us. Or will it just raise more questions?

BagMan

What setup are you going to test?

E55Greasemonkey

DO1 pre-supercharger and DO1 post-intercooler, with pump turned up to max output. 80% water/20% Methanol

Same dyno I put down 475hp on last year. However, I have since done some intake work to the car. Looking forward to the meth-off results as well.

quote:

Every car is going to react differently to meth injection. This is where trial and error comes into the equation. I am a firm believer of trying to run the smallest nozzle possible to get the most gain out of it.

jcjmw

Good luck!

Shifter

Results!!??

E55Greasemonkey

Let me start off by saying this: It was way too hot today to get any meaningful results. It was 92F at the dyno. I ran the car on my lunch break, meaning, this was a real world test in a way. There was little time to cool down the car after driving to the dyno. I pulled on the dyno right off the street. Hood open, car tied down, big fan turned on. I ran last year on the same dyno 475whp. However it was slightly cooler then (mid 80's) and my car cooled for at least 1 hour as I waited my turn.

To put things in perspective, the 92F ambient temp means my runs were starting at IAT around 124F, as I watched from my phone (TORQUE APP) The ECU was dumping fuel at the top of each run.

I will scan and post the dyno sheet tomorrow FWIW.

1st pull, meth off, did 463whp/481tq. I watched IAT hit 158F and the wideband go 10's
as the ECU dumped fuel (and likely pulled timing although I was not logging it)

Shut car off let "cool" about 15 minutes...

2nd pull, meth on, did 471/478. Starting IAT in the 120's, then hit around 148F

3nd pull meth on again, decided to run after only 5 minute cool down, to see if meth could hold power on back to back runs.. a dismal 458/477, IAT now 158F.

It seemed the meth was not cooling on the dyno. The car without a doubt, got super heat soaked, it was HOT ..Matter of fact I drove off and noticed the idle was a little uneven, made me nervous to be honest...the engine, and supercharger were so hot, I believe this caused the idle to feel odd, maybe the fuel was almost boiling, on a good note, the car is now fine. On the way back to work, I did 2 test runs...Meth off hit 150F IAT, tried again meth on and hit 152F, both times IAT starting at 108F. It seemed the meth was not spraying, but it was..I could see it slightly cooling as I continued on my drive back. My thoery- the car was so absolutely heat soaked, the meth spray could not bring it back under control. Perhaps a larger nozzle would have, but then it'd be too much at lower ambient temps.

After the car cooled for 4 hours, on the way home, I could have a datalog to make Bramage happy. It was 85F ambient, and was able to see 86F IAT cruising after tapping into the throttle (to get meth spraying) and was able to hold 95F through a short blast. But, this is not reality. Only a full 1-2-3 gear pull will show what is going on with IAT's.

A few pointers from the owner of the dyno. He is a well respected Mustang shop with lots of experience racing. I trust what he says. He noted a couple things. He said he's only seen meth really work when timing is added. Even just a couple degrees. He also said the dyno is not a good place to see how the meth works; running the car in the 1/4 will show if it's working. It shows it's effectiveness on the longgg pulls down the quarter as the heat builds, not short runs on the dyno. He has seen cars pick up only 15whp on the dyno with meth, but then shave .3 to .4 and 3-4 MPH off the 1/4 times.

My conclusion at this point, I will have to test it at the track. I know some of you think my #1 nozzle is too small. I have seen the IAT drop and know it works without over-richening the car. I would welcome any of you running meth to run your car on the dyno with it on/off. A #10 nozzle, spraying 50/50 mix will, in my mind, cause you to lose power without being tuned for it. At least that is my opinion. The meth is no miracle, that's for sure at least not without tuning for it.... And I question whether or not it really works at all in our application without tuning for it. Yes, you can drop your IAT's somewhat; however what that really equals in power is an unanswered question. Yes, I am making this complicated, almost in a myth-busters fashion...I like facts, numbers, testing, proof..that means either a dyno or 1/4 mile time. So, who's next?

Bramage

I was on the dyno May 12th. I will post my logs as well as the official temp at the shop.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/....html#calendar

Ambient temp on dyno was 92 at 2:30pm Ill pull my logs and post up. I don't think AIT went over 100 with meth. Same scenario, drove to shop, strapped down and went to town. Without meth hit 160ish.. (I run a 190mm pulley)

I also have logs from Famoso (1/4 mile runs) and they all look the same. I am not here to argue, I am just saying: You have something wrong. If meth is spraying, your IAT will remain flat and not much more that 10 over ambient (unless you heat up the mix)

I just read that you are running a #1 nozzle. That explains it..

And I agree with your guy: Meth will not add any power if not tuned for it. In fact, you lose a little. However, by using the spray to keep AIT's in check, the available horse power stays available. I see 50HP different from 5000 - 6000 w meth simply because the AITs are in check. I am not tuned for meth. I need to add a failsafe before we start tweaking. That tweaking will consist of (around) -20% fuel and 2 degrees of timing.

The quote is also correct: The smallest nozzle possible (that gives your displacement enough volume to work).. On our cars, 10 is as small as you can go to make any meaningful difference. 12 is a little big, 8 is a little small

I wont clutter your posts anymore,. Your research is valuable.

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

Damn Brad I'd like to take a look at your setup one of these days and see if there's something up that stands out to me, as my results were 180' different on the same dyno you were using (jakes, right?)

I wasn't logging as extensively as you but we did disconnect the meth for the last hit just to see what the difference would be with the A/F ratio leaner as I get 9.9-10.5ish with the meth on. We let it sit for 15-20 mins to cool off while running the I/C pump the whole time and keeping ice in the trunk tank, so my heat exchanger was frosting over. It still lost +/- 50 WHP without the meth. This was a mix ratio of aprox 90% meth, 10% water spraying a single 625ml nozzle after the TB but before the blower.

E55Greasemonkey

Bramage, your input is appreciated, I'm not here to argue either. Just posting what I have found real-world.

Sir-Boost-a-Lot, yes it was Jake's dyno today.

Style_Front

Was convinced water injection was the way to go but now I'm slightly discouraged. I'm seeing over 160 degrees from 0-120 and I'd like the prepare the car for long autobahn pulls but I'm unsure this is the miracle solution I was let to believe.

Now I'm contemplating a smaller crank as the 180 is simply producing too much heat. Good for momentary blasts but overwhelming for the EC HE and seemingly too much for the water injection, in some cases.

austingtir

Not that I know alot about what nozzle to run on our v8's my experience is with diesels... BUT id bet that a number #1 nozzle is nowhere near big enough to do jack on one of these engines.

I am running a #7 on my 4cyl 2.5ltr turbo diesel. I know of a guy running three number 10's on the same engine with a decent sized turbo at 38psi.

Diesels can take a crap load of water/meth... more so than a supercharged or turbocharged petrol road car.

I reckon to get any real effect on these engines you'd want something between a 5 and 12 depending on how modified the car is and boost etc etc.

rockthemullet

Were all of these readings with the new IAT sensor location, further downstream from the nozzle? I was really hopeful on that relocation to the surge tank.

Last year I saw 85-95° and then flatline at 95°. The only thing I changed over the winter was the addition of an 82mm TB and now it acts like it's not working (160 without and only slightly less with). Initially I thought maybe that 82mm is just moving TOO much air but if you're having good results then that may be ruled out. What size nozzle are you running? I have a 7... maybe I need bigger with the 82mm

I wouldn't consider any of this clutter... we're all brainstorming here, any solid information is value added

Georgee6086

I'm going to the track tomorrow, I'll post up some results if anybody's interested. #10 nozzel, no split cooling, OEM HE, Bosch 010 pump ( no cooling mods just meth) last time I ran 12.32 at 113mph and iat hit over 180 without meth injection. Looks like the weather is going to be the same too.

E55Greasemonkey

Looking forward to your track results.
FWIW When I ran the #7 post IC it was too big with 100% water and caused my engine to bog and misfire.

E55Greasemonkey

Rock...all my recent testing is with OEM iat location. The relocated iat has shown the same temps under full load, however it tends to trend slightly hotter on decel and cruising