Re-thinking the header back set up.
#1
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Re-thinking the header back set up.
I have made a lot of mid pipe set upd for this CL already and still not happy with the set. The main problem is that the sytem is not modular enough, it is heavy , goes from 3" into 2.75 from my resonators back.
This all came up, as after doing the heads, my mid pipe is not sealing to my V band clamps on the headers. Lot of factors can cause this but again, not modular or flexable enough.
When I add flex connectors, they rub and hit the ground. Fail!
Cats keep blowing out! Fail!
Resonator to muffler section weighs 80lbs. Fail!
Taking off headers with slip collectors and mating up mid pipe tends to leak. Fail!
Starting to feel the X pipe is way over rated , heavy, takes up room and does not allow flexing.
Thinking of starting over fresh and also include just a simple crossover tube to start with. Flex couplers and resonator delete.
Wind drag on my current system is brutal!!
This all came up, as after doing the heads, my mid pipe is not sealing to my V band clamps on the headers. Lot of factors can cause this but again, not modular or flexable enough.
When I add flex connectors, they rub and hit the ground. Fail!
Cats keep blowing out! Fail!
Resonator to muffler section weighs 80lbs. Fail!
Taking off headers with slip collectors and mating up mid pipe tends to leak. Fail!
Starting to feel the X pipe is way over rated , heavy, takes up room and does not allow flexing.
Thinking of starting over fresh and also include just a simple crossover tube to start with. Flex couplers and resonator delete.
Wind drag on my current system is brutal!!
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
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#3
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2005 E55 AMG
I'll tell you what...I see anything over 2.75" to be excessive on any setup under 650whp or higher. I put 507whp on a 2.5" mid setup going to the oem 2.75" rear setup and my car builds power all the way to redline indicating that it has no issues with backpressure even with a 2.5" exhaust with a 2.5" X-pipe. Superchargers care about scavenging just like a naturally aspirated engine does. I would honestly do a 2.75" setup and continue to use an X-pipe as they help equalize the flow.
#5
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I'll tell you what...I see anything over 2.75" to be excessive on any setup under 650whp or higher. I put 507whp on a 2.5" mid setup going to the oem 2.75" rear setup and my car builds power all the way to redline indicating that it has no issues with backpressure even with a 2.5" exhaust with a 2.5" X-pipe. Superchargers care about scavenging just like a naturally aspirated engine does. I would honestly do a 2.75" setup and continue to use an X-pipe as they help equalize the flow.
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
Man I know how you feel. LT's are loud, leaks ,at least for me from the header/collector part, rubbing and can go on. Fixed most, but it was a pain
TBH i was much happier with the shorti evo headers I had for day to day and the occasional race, but alas power hunger is a btch!
you mentioned flex connectors, do they work?
and why did you need them? ( as all i have holding mine is the engine and the 2 rear muffler mounts) thus it has flex...i think no ?)
TBH i was much happier with the shorti evo headers I had for day to day and the occasional race, but alas power hunger is a btch!
you mentioned flex connectors, do they work?
and why did you need them? ( as all i have holding mine is the engine and the 2 rear muffler mounts) thus it has flex...i think no ?)
I have made a lot of mid pipe set upd for this CL already and still not happy with the set. The main problem is that the sytem is not modular enough, it is heavy , goes from 3" into 2.75 from my resonators back.
This all came up, as after doing the heads, my mid pipe is not sealing to my V band clamps on the headers. Lot of factors can cause this but again, not modular or flexable enough.
When I add flex connectors, they rub and hit the ground. Fail!
Cats keep blowing out! Fail!
Resonator to muffler section weighs 80lbs. Fail!
Taking off headers with slip collectors and mating up mid pipe tends to leak. Fail!
Starting to feel the X pipe is way over rated , heavy, takes up room and does not allow flexing.
Thinking of starting over fresh and also include just a simple crossover tube to start with. Flex couplers and resonator delete.
Wind drag on my current system is brutal!!
This all came up, as after doing the heads, my mid pipe is not sealing to my V band clamps on the headers. Lot of factors can cause this but again, not modular or flexable enough.
When I add flex connectors, they rub and hit the ground. Fail!
Cats keep blowing out! Fail!
Resonator to muffler section weighs 80lbs. Fail!
Taking off headers with slip collectors and mating up mid pipe tends to leak. Fail!
Starting to feel the X pipe is way over rated , heavy, takes up room and does not allow flexing.
Thinking of starting over fresh and also include just a simple crossover tube to start with. Flex couplers and resonator delete.
Wind drag on my current system is brutal!!
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
One of the biggest reasons I'm going with 3" is availability. It's not too hard 2.75" to find but 3" is everywhere and if I need it in a pinch I can get it. That being said I plan on using most of the factory exhaust with my LT's.
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#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
Brooke,
The logical suggestion: Two midpipes 1: Aluminum "race" set up 2: Steel "daily" set up
I noticed how stiff the short flex connectors are really stiff in the short variety. Maybe longer ones farther back where you can tuck them up?
The crazy suggestion: Two turbos in the back like the STS setup for vettes, 'maros and the the like. Muwahahah.
The logical suggestion: Two midpipes 1: Aluminum "race" set up 2: Steel "daily" set up
I noticed how stiff the short flex connectors are really stiff in the short variety. Maybe longer ones farther back where you can tuck them up?
The crazy suggestion: Two turbos in the back like the STS setup for vettes, 'maros and the the like. Muwahahah.
#9
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2005 E55 AMG
For the record, I put 417whp on a SINGLE 2.5" exhaust on my Supercharged G35 with so little back pressure that when I would remove the exhaust I would gain ZERO whp.
I've also seen 500+whp on SINGLE 2.5" exhausts and 700+whp on a SINGLE 3" exhaust. Granted, backpressure was starting to get noticeable ( not even horrible ) on those setups but they are pretty extreme for the pipe size used.
Do you really think you need DUAL 3" pipes that can support 1000+whp?
#10
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No I don't think I need it wasn't trying to imply that. I wish I did. I haven't built my exhaust yet and won't for another month or two. My plan is to use most of the factory set up. So we'll just have to see what it looks like when I'm done as I'm not even sure yet.
#12
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C32/C55 AMG
Here is some good info:
Some people operate under the misguided notion that wider pipes are more effective at clearing the combustion chamber than narrower pipes. It's not hard to see how this misconception is appealing - wider pipes have the capability to flow more than narrower pipes. So if they have the ability to flow more, why isn't "wider is better" a good rule of thumb for exhaust upgrading? In a word - VELOCITY. I'm sure that all of you have at one time used a garden hose w/o a spray nozzle on it. If you let the water just run unrestricted out of the house it flows at a rather slow rate. However, if you take your finger and cover part of the opening, the water will flow out at a much much faster rate.
The astute exhaust designer knows that you must balance flow capacity with velocity. You want the exhaust gases to exit the chamber and speed along at the highest velocity possible - you want a FAST exhaust stream. If you have two exhaust pulses of equal volume, one in a 2" pipe and one in a 3" pipe, the pulse in the 2" pipe will be traveling considerably FASTER than the pulse in the 3" pipe. While it is true that the narrower the pipe, the higher the velocity of the exiting gases, you want make sure the pipe is wide enough so that there is as little backpressure as possible while maintaining suitable exhaust gas velocity. Backpressure in it's most extreme form can lead to reversion of the exhaust stream - that is to say the exhaust flows backwards, which is not good. The trick is to have a pipe that that is as narrow as possible while having as close to zero backpressure as possible at the RPM range you want your power band to be located at. Exhaust pipe diameters are best suited to a particular RPM range. A smaller pipe diameter will produce higher exhaust velocities at a lower RPM but create unacceptably high amounts of backpressure at high rpm. Thus if your powerband is located 2-3000 RPM you'd want a narrower pipe than if your powerband is located at 8-9000RPM.
Many engineers try to work around the RPM specific nature of pipe diameters by using setups that are capable of creating a similar effect as a change in pipe diameter on the fly. The most advanced is Ferrari's which consists of two exhaust paths after the header - at low RPM only one path is open to maintain exhaust velocity, but as RPM climbs and exhaust volume increases, the second path is opened to curb backpressure - since there is greater exhaust volume there is no loss in flow velocity. BMW and Nissan use a simpler and less effective method - there is a single exhaust path to the muffler; the muffler has two paths; one path is closed at low RPM but both are open at high RPM.
The astute exhaust designer knows that you must balance flow capacity with velocity. You want the exhaust gases to exit the chamber and speed along at the highest velocity possible - you want a FAST exhaust stream. If you have two exhaust pulses of equal volume, one in a 2" pipe and one in a 3" pipe, the pulse in the 2" pipe will be traveling considerably FASTER than the pulse in the 3" pipe. While it is true that the narrower the pipe, the higher the velocity of the exiting gases, you want make sure the pipe is wide enough so that there is as little backpressure as possible while maintaining suitable exhaust gas velocity. Backpressure in it's most extreme form can lead to reversion of the exhaust stream - that is to say the exhaust flows backwards, which is not good. The trick is to have a pipe that that is as narrow as possible while having as close to zero backpressure as possible at the RPM range you want your power band to be located at. Exhaust pipe diameters are best suited to a particular RPM range. A smaller pipe diameter will produce higher exhaust velocities at a lower RPM but create unacceptably high amounts of backpressure at high rpm. Thus if your powerband is located 2-3000 RPM you'd want a narrower pipe than if your powerband is located at 8-9000RPM.
Many engineers try to work around the RPM specific nature of pipe diameters by using setups that are capable of creating a similar effect as a change in pipe diameter on the fly. The most advanced is Ferrari's which consists of two exhaust paths after the header - at low RPM only one path is open to maintain exhaust velocity, but as RPM climbs and exhaust volume increases, the second path is opened to curb backpressure - since there is greater exhaust volume there is no loss in flow velocity. BMW and Nissan use a simpler and less effective method - there is a single exhaust path to the muffler; the muffler has two paths; one path is closed at low RPM but both are open at high RPM.
#13
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I am a huge proponet of 3" exhaust on our motors! At least on the front half , if you can go all the way back. I also made over 500 with stock manifolds and 2.75 but when I went with 3" collectors/ 1.75 primaries and cleaned up any kinks, another 45 HP was un-leashed.
Supercharged engines need to breath and dont need back pressure for scavenging like N/A cars do. To many people build thier E55 systems like they are for a N/A motor.
Here are my exhaust problems after almost 2 years. My headers do not leak but V band and band clamps do at times. Everytime I need to remove a header or work on exhaust, then V bands dont flex to line up. Second most hated area, is where our mid pipe bolts to the rear section. This area always causes fit issues, flow issues and takes to much time to mess with. This i coming off
Oh yeah, I weighed my tail section (mufflers and resonators) and it is right at 80-85lbs! Fail!
First, thanks for the tip on the aluminum pipe. That brings up some nice ideas! I just need to find a tig welding machine and brush up my tig skills.
Here is my new plan. LT`s have to stay on but I did shorten the collectors and made more ground clearance. I am good with those now. Although, doing the ported heads, the header re/re is about 40% of the time used on the project.
1) Leave V band clamps on header.
2) Leave X pipe just after tranny
3) Continue to use two 45 deg bends pipes from header to X pipe that are V band at header and band clamp at X pipe.
4) Have off road pipes and catted 45 deg. pipes.
5) Off road pipes will have 4" flex joints right off the header this time and Catted pipes will have flex pipe right after cats.
6) Will remove resonators and add 3" ball fittings back there to help with adjustability.
7)Remove factory mid pipe to rear pipe flanges and replace with ball or V band clamps.
here are V band clamps on my short 45 deg pipes, just before the pipe.
Picture down stream of the X pipe.
Supercharged engines need to breath and dont need back pressure for scavenging like N/A cars do. To many people build thier E55 systems like they are for a N/A motor.
Here are my exhaust problems after almost 2 years. My headers do not leak but V band and band clamps do at times. Everytime I need to remove a header or work on exhaust, then V bands dont flex to line up. Second most hated area, is where our mid pipe bolts to the rear section. This area always causes fit issues, flow issues and takes to much time to mess with. This i coming off
Oh yeah, I weighed my tail section (mufflers and resonators) and it is right at 80-85lbs! Fail!
First, thanks for the tip on the aluminum pipe. That brings up some nice ideas! I just need to find a tig welding machine and brush up my tig skills.
Here is my new plan. LT`s have to stay on but I did shorten the collectors and made more ground clearance. I am good with those now. Although, doing the ported heads, the header re/re is about 40% of the time used on the project.
1) Leave V band clamps on header.
2) Leave X pipe just after tranny
3) Continue to use two 45 deg bends pipes from header to X pipe that are V band at header and band clamp at X pipe.
4) Have off road pipes and catted 45 deg. pipes.
5) Off road pipes will have 4" flex joints right off the header this time and Catted pipes will have flex pipe right after cats.
6) Will remove resonators and add 3" ball fittings back there to help with adjustability.
7)Remove factory mid pipe to rear pipe flanges and replace with ball or V band clamps.
here are V band clamps on my short 45 deg pipes, just before the pipe.
Picture down stream of the X pipe.
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
Last edited by Exotic-metal55; 09-13-2011 at 01:27 PM.
#14
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2005 E55 AMG
I am a huge proponet of 3" exhaust on our motors! At least on the front half , if you can go all the way back. I also made over 500 with stock manifolds and 2.75 but when I went with 3" collectors/ 1.75 primaries and cleaned up any kinks, another 45 HP was un-leashed.
Supercharged engines need to breath and dont need back pressure for scavenging like N/A cars do. To many people build thier E55 systems like they are for a N/A motor.
Supercharged engines need to breath and dont need back pressure for scavenging like N/A cars do. To many people build thier E55 systems like they are for a N/A motor.
As stated before, I've seen 700whp on a SINGLE 3" exhaust...what makes you think the 55K is any different?
Also, you mention backpressure and scavenging as if they were one thing and they are complete and totally different things. You want the highest amount of scavenging possible with the smallest amount of backpressure possible ( zero backpressure would be ideal, but nearly impossible ). The 55K does not need backpressure, but I can assure you that is DOES need scavenging.
Just look at how many people have installed cutouts over they stockish exhaust and have gained little to no power from them. And cutouts are as extreme as you can go.
Keep in mind that the ONLY engines that are exempt from this are turbo engines due to the fact that the turbo will block any efforts to induce scavenging. But Supercharged and N/A engines are to be treated the same.
Last edited by GT-ER; 09-13-2011 at 03:35 PM.
#16
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I use the the dyno to test each mod, each exhaust change and every change for that matter. There are more restrictions in the exhaust than cats. I know, because I have dynoed them. CL55 have much better mufflers than the E and NO 2.5" areas. the E does not have 2.75 all the way back, as it has areas of 2.5 and the CL does not. Again, all these minute changesd have been dynoed.
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CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
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#17
Super Member
Occam's razor. What cuts weight, drag, and backpressure? Minimizing the amount of pipe distal to your headers.
Keep your current setup for the street and so that your exhaust gases are routed out the back for day to day driving, but have Jerry tune you with turndowns off of your LT's. No need for flex pipes, x pipes, or any real changes. There's not a decibel max that I know of at the mile.
Keep your current setup for the street and so that your exhaust gases are routed out the back for day to day driving, but have Jerry tune you with turndowns off of your LT's. No need for flex pipes, x pipes, or any real changes. There's not a decibel max that I know of at the mile.
#18
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2005 E55 AMG
You may have mis-read my comments or I was not clear but scavenging and back pressure are not related. We each have our own way of doing things and thats what makes it so much fun. If you like 2.5 , then go for it! I like 3" all the way back to my resonators, then 2.75" from there. Lot of the LT`s offered for our cars are better suited for N/A cars , due to their scavenging but also create more back pressure on highly moded 55`s.
I use the the dyno to test each mod, each exhaust change and every change for that matter. There are more restrictions in the exhaust than cats. I know, because I have dynoed them. CL55 have much better mufflers than the E and NO 2.5" areas. the E does not have 2.75 all the way back, as it has areas of 2.5 and the CL does not. Again, all these minute changesd have been dynoed.
I use the the dyno to test each mod, each exhaust change and every change for that matter. There are more restrictions in the exhaust than cats. I know, because I have dynoed them. CL55 have much better mufflers than the E and NO 2.5" areas. the E does not have 2.75 all the way back, as it has areas of 2.5 and the CL does not. Again, all these minute changesd have been dynoed.
Regardless, Benzodoc is correct if you REALLY want to save weight.
#20
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Thread Starter
Occam's razor. What cuts weight, drag, and backpressure? Minimizing the amount of pipe distal to your headers.
Keep your current setup for the street and so that your exhaust gases are routed out the back for day to day driving, but have Jerry tune you with turndowns off of your LT's. No need for flex pipes, x pipes, or any real changes. There's not a decibel max that I know of at the mile.
Keep your current setup for the street and so that your exhaust gases are routed out the back for day to day driving, but have Jerry tune you with turndowns off of your LT's. No need for flex pipes, x pipes, or any real changes. There's not a decibel max that I know of at the mile.
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd