WEISTEC: Setting the record straight
07-06-2013, 04:04 PM
#326
Senior Member
I thought your numbers were additive...they are high, but probably not solely responsible for your failure.
Do you know what kinda timing advance you were seeing at WOT? What octane fuel? Know what your WOT AFR's are at 5500 RPMs?
What precisely failed in your motor?
Do you know what kinda timing advance you were seeing at WOT? What octane fuel? Know what your WOT AFR's are at 5500 RPMs?
What precisely failed in your motor?
07-06-2013, 04:40 PM
#327
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Timing peaked at 16.5 deg at max revs as I recall it. This was when my IATs were at their highest. I don't understand why timing was not pulled at all
We have 95 octane but it's said to be about the equivalent of your 91. I was running 1 litre of Torco octane booster with 40 liters of fuel at the time. Unfortunately wasn't logging AFRs but when we initially dynod the car, AFRs were conservative as I recall it. Seems like detonation - 4 or 5 pistons bombed and the bores were scorched.
Last edited by ajm55; 07-07-2013 at 04:27 AM. Reason: typos
07-06-2013, 06:05 PM
#328
Senior Member
Timing would be ok with IAT's in the proper range. 91 octane is a bit low, but I think that's what they tune for. I do nothing less than 93 and the meth gives me added octane points as well. Unfortunately, heat is an enemy that exceeds even octane.
If you were on the 56mm, pulley you were probably in the 17-18 psi (vs. my 14 psi) range so even less error margin.
Have you checked your fuel filter? It was worth .5+ AFR for me. Cheap insurance.
My logger has a warning light/buzzer that has smart warnings for multiple inputs (such as if boost=x and IAT=y, do Z. This can be a warning light, buzzer or activation of a solenoid.)
I recall your saying that you have a DashDAQ for logging. Great tool...lots of great features, but the OBDII is too slow to be useful, particularly if you add more than a couple of logged params. It will get you in the ballpark, but I would NOT rely on it for tuning.
All in all, when pushing a motor so far beyond what it's designed for, it's a running of the gauntlet. You just can stack the odds in your favor, but doing all of the right things...prayer helps too!
Weistec has a variety of larger pulleys that can help you start conservative and work up. A 65mm pulley, you'll see 11-12 psi.
If you were on the 56mm, pulley you were probably in the 17-18 psi (vs. my 14 psi) range so even less error margin.
Have you checked your fuel filter? It was worth .5+ AFR for me. Cheap insurance.
My logger has a warning light/buzzer that has smart warnings for multiple inputs (such as if boost=x and IAT=y, do Z. This can be a warning light, buzzer or activation of a solenoid.)
I recall your saying that you have a DashDAQ for logging. Great tool...lots of great features, but the OBDII is too slow to be useful, particularly if you add more than a couple of logged params. It will get you in the ballpark, but I would NOT rely on it for tuning.
All in all, when pushing a motor so far beyond what it's designed for, it's a running of the gauntlet. You just can stack the odds in your favor, but doing all of the right things...prayer helps too!
Weistec has a variety of larger pulleys that can help you start conservative and work up. A 65mm pulley, you'll see 11-12 psi.
07-07-2013, 02:52 AM
#330
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the insights. I'm going to add wideband zeitronix to my logging equipment to monitor the AFRs. I considered the AEM failsafe gauge as well but, on enquiry, AEM themselves could not suggest any way in which to set the failsafe feature up on a clutchless system.
Weistec's test vehicle is said to have been run on 91 octane fuel. I would have thought that our fuel combined with Torco octane booster should've been adequate.
I was on the 56mm upper pulley combined with the 168mm lower pulley. This configuration was recommended by Weistec so as to yield around 17psi on my set up. As Sir-Boost-a-Lot correctly points out, I'm at high altitude. Boost was in fact topping out at 17psi, so the calculations were spot on. Perhaps Weistec can chime in here, but they explained to me when I bought their unit that 17psi was within their unit's efficiency range and that if one were to settle on a maximum boost falling below their unit's efficiency range, one would see better results running the stock blower.
The fuel filter would've been replaced as part of a major service undertaken not long prior to the calamity but I will again replace it for good measure.
When I bought the Weistec unit I also purchased a 65mm upper pulley so will start off with the 65/168 mm combo and go from there. As for throwing prayer into the mix, I'm thinking I've probably used up all my credits for the time being
Weistec's test vehicle is said to have been run on 91 octane fuel. I would have thought that our fuel combined with Torco octane booster should've been adequate.
I was on the 56mm upper pulley combined with the 168mm lower pulley. This configuration was recommended by Weistec so as to yield around 17psi on my set up. As Sir-Boost-a-Lot correctly points out, I'm at high altitude. Boost was in fact topping out at 17psi, so the calculations were spot on. Perhaps Weistec can chime in here, but they explained to me when I bought their unit that 17psi was within their unit's efficiency range and that if one were to settle on a maximum boost falling below their unit's efficiency range, one would see better results running the stock blower.
The fuel filter would've been replaced as part of a major service undertaken not long prior to the calamity but I will again replace it for good measure.
When I bought the Weistec unit I also purchased a 65mm upper pulley so will start off with the 65/168 mm combo and go from there. As for throwing prayer into the mix, I'm thinking I've probably used up all my credits for the time being
Timing would be ok with IAT's in the proper range. 91 octane is a bit low, but I think that's what they tune for. I do nothing less than 93 and the meth gives me added octane points as well. Unfortunately, heat is an enemy that exceeds even octane.
If you were on the 56mm, pulley you were probably in the 17-18 psi (vs. my 14 psi) range so even less error margin.
Have you checked your fuel filter? It was worth .5+ AFR for me. Cheap insurance.
My logger has a warning light/buzzer that has smart warnings for multiple inputs (such as if boost=x and IAT=y, do Z. This can be a warning light, buzzer or activation of a solenoid.)
I recall your saying that you have a DashDAQ for logging. Great tool...lots of great features, but the OBDII is too slow to be useful, particularly if you add more than a couple of logged params. It will get you in the ballpark, but I would NOT rely on it for tuning.
All in all, when pushing a motor so far beyond what it's designed for, it's a running of the gauntlet. You just can stack the odds in your favor, but doing all of the right things...prayer helps too! Weistec has a variety of larger pulleys that can help you start conservative and work up. A 65mm pulley, you'll see 11-12 psi.
If you were on the 56mm, pulley you were probably in the 17-18 psi (vs. my 14 psi) range so even less error margin.
Have you checked your fuel filter? It was worth .5+ AFR for me. Cheap insurance.
My logger has a warning light/buzzer that has smart warnings for multiple inputs (such as if boost=x and IAT=y, do Z. This can be a warning light, buzzer or activation of a solenoid.)
I recall your saying that you have a DashDAQ for logging. Great tool...lots of great features, but the OBDII is too slow to be useful, particularly if you add more than a couple of logged params. It will get you in the ballpark, but I would NOT rely on it for tuning.
All in all, when pushing a motor so far beyond what it's designed for, it's a running of the gauntlet. You just can stack the odds in your favor, but doing all of the right things...prayer helps too!
Weistec has a variety of larger pulleys that can help you start conservative and work up. A 65mm pulley, you'll see 11-12 psi.Last edited by ajm55; 07-07-2013 at 05:29 AM. Reason: typos
07-07-2013, 09:07 AM
#331
Senior Member
The Zeitronix wideband works AWESOME with the DashDAQ...that is what I have.
Forget AEM. If you have the Zeitronix, you can do everything that AEM can do and more. I have not experimented with activating a solenoid with it, but the idiot light is awesome since you can program smart parameters, like I mentioned previously. The warning light/alarm is about the size of a postage stamp, so you can put it nearly anywhere that would catch your eye.
It's a HUGE faux pas by Drew Tech not to have multiple-input warnings with the DashDAQ. What the heck good is it to have a high AFR warning if it's not coupled with a second input?? Nice hoopty-buzzer, that's about it. Plain stupid!
On the boost amount, not sure what to say. I certainly can't refute what Weistec says about the efficiency rating of the unit, but I can tell you that running 14 PSI on mine pulls a lot harder at the mid/top than the stock unit.
Without doubt, there's enough fuel there to support my setup...my AFR's prove it. My calcs say that the injectors are good to about 800HP.
Keep the faith.
Forget AEM. If you have the Zeitronix, you can do everything that AEM can do and more. I have not experimented with activating a solenoid with it, but the idiot light is awesome since you can program smart parameters, like I mentioned previously. The warning light/alarm is about the size of a postage stamp, so you can put it nearly anywhere that would catch your eye.
It's a HUGE faux pas by Drew Tech not to have multiple-input warnings with the DashDAQ. What the heck good is it to have a high AFR warning if it's not coupled with a second input?? Nice hoopty-buzzer, that's about it. Plain stupid!
On the boost amount, not sure what to say. I certainly can't refute what Weistec says about the efficiency rating of the unit, but I can tell you that running 14 PSI on mine pulls a lot harder at the mid/top than the stock unit.
Without doubt, there's enough fuel there to support my setup...my AFR's prove it. My calcs say that the injectors are good to about 800HP.
Keep the faith.
07-07-2013, 09:19 AM
#332
MBWorld Fanatic!
Here's the thing with this Weistec setup that is clearly a problem, it does not control iats properly which was one of the selling points, why does one need meth when they claim a more efficient IC
Also Ajm you can wire the AEM to trigger with boost and afr via the bpv
Also Ajm you can wire the AEM to trigger with boost and afr via the bpv
07-07-2013, 09:31 AM
#333
A little off topic, but good for comparing oranges to tangerines-
I was over on the coast yesterday and we went riding in a friends 09 CTSV. This car has a built larger displacement engine but still runs the factory 1.9 liter blower pullied as hard as he can get it. (nearly 9 sec car)This means the largest crank pulley spinning the smallest blower pulley on the GM(eaton) blower available. The air filter is setup like Mindbends. Still in the engine compartment , towards the front but not enclosed to outside air or anything fancy.
Ambient temps - 89 degrees F
IAT1 (pre-blower)Cruising inlet temps - 94-98degrees with varying speeds of 20-60 mph. Once the car stops, the IAT1 begins climbing as the engine compartment gets heat soaked. It drops back down to 94-96 within 20 feet once acceleration is resumed
IAT2 (post-blower)Cruising temps - 104-107 10-12 degrees over intake and 15-18 over ambient and with the tiny blower spinning as fast as possible, meth activated at 8-9 psi IAT2 never got above 110!
Just thought some might find those observations interesting as the car still uses the stock GM LSA brick intercooler core (the better LS9 engine uses Laminova cores) and has an upgraded heat exchanger up front.
You can buy a whole pullout CTS-V powertrain for about the same price as a Weistec blower, headers and the supporting mods... MB/GM hybrid anyone? I know comparing the rest of the car will reveal some compromises between the two cars (priced 30k+ apart) but its amazing the quality of powertrain the GM engineers mass produce at the prices they do.
That is all
I was over on the coast yesterday and we went riding in a friends 09 CTSV. This car has a built larger displacement engine but still runs the factory 1.9 liter blower pullied as hard as he can get it. (nearly 9 sec car)This means the largest crank pulley spinning the smallest blower pulley on the GM(eaton) blower available. The air filter is setup like Mindbends. Still in the engine compartment , towards the front but not enclosed to outside air or anything fancy.
Ambient temps - 89 degrees F
IAT1 (pre-blower)Cruising inlet temps - 94-98degrees with varying speeds of 20-60 mph. Once the car stops, the IAT1 begins climbing as the engine compartment gets heat soaked. It drops back down to 94-96 within 20 feet once acceleration is resumed
IAT2 (post-blower)Cruising temps - 104-107 10-12 degrees over intake and 15-18 over ambient and with the tiny blower spinning as fast as possible, meth activated at 8-9 psi IAT2 never got above 110!
Just thought some might find those observations interesting as the car still uses the stock GM LSA brick intercooler core (the better LS9 engine uses Laminova cores) and has an upgraded heat exchanger up front.
You can buy a whole pullout CTS-V powertrain for about the same price as a Weistec blower, headers and the supporting mods... MB/GM hybrid anyone? I know comparing the rest of the car will reveal some compromises between the two cars (priced 30k+ apart) but its amazing the quality of powertrain the GM engineers mass produce at the prices they do.
That is all
Last edited by Sir-Boost-a-Lot; 07-07-2013 at 09:33 AM.
07-07-2013, 09:36 AM
#334
Senior Member
"Increased efficiency" doesn't mean "endless". Run the bigger blower at the same volume as the stock blower and you'll see "increased efficiency". However, the bigger blower is creating so much more volume, it would proportionally increase the heat as well.
With the space in which the intercooler has to be placed, there's no more left to give. We got what we've got, barring putting a larger one under the blower, raising it higher causing a hood scoop/bubble, etc.
As I mentioned previously, I believe (and have log data to collaborate my suspicions) that the temps will go down tremendously by moving the intake/air-filter to a cold-air location and out of the engine temps. (Sir Boost may have just shot that theory all to hell?)
As for running meth, yep--most of the big HP cars running the OE blower do the same. (as do mustangs, and BMW's and EVO's, etc.). It's my first experience with it and IT ROCKS. I will use it again on future projects since the cost:performance ratio is off the charts. I've plumbed an extra port into the intake for another meth nozzle, just in case, and will try it out. Why? Because I CAN!
With the space in which the intercooler has to be placed, there's no more left to give. We got what we've got, barring putting a larger one under the blower, raising it higher causing a hood scoop/bubble, etc.
As I mentioned previously, I believe (and have log data to collaborate my suspicions) that the temps will go down tremendously by moving the intake/air-filter to a cold-air location and out of the engine temps. (Sir Boost may have just shot that theory all to hell?)
As for running meth, yep--most of the big HP cars running the OE blower do the same. (as do mustangs, and BMW's and EVO's, etc.). It's my first experience with it and IT ROCKS. I will use it again on future projects since the cost:performance ratio is off the charts. I've plumbed an extra port into the intake for another meth nozzle, just in case, and will try it out. Why? Because I CAN!
07-07-2013, 09:45 AM
#335
Not necessarily . Everything about these cars is similar, but nothing is identical so what works for one may or may not for the other. Ill know for sure soon, since the air filter on my E is all the way up front behind the fog light sucking no hot air. I don't anticipate much difference but it definitely won't hurt.
07-07-2013, 09:48 AM
#336
Senior Member
I don't believe it will be the end-all, but is HAS to help--I'm certain. By moving the coolant tank, there's lots of room of there for innovative ideas.
As mentioned before, the IAT sensor is in an out-of-the way location and surely doesn't get an accurate reading and heat-soaks.
I'd like to plumb-in somewhere better with my logger's sensor and see what the real numbers are. Weistec has told me that they verified it's about 10-15° off since they have tapped temp sensors into all the runners for their logging purposes. (they send me a pic once).
Know what size TB/inlet does the CTSV have?
As mentioned before, the IAT sensor is in an out-of-the way location and surely doesn't get an accurate reading and heat-soaks.
I'd like to plumb-in somewhere better with my logger's sensor and see what the real numbers are. Weistec has told me that they verified it's about 10-15° off since they have tapped temp sensors into all the runners for their logging purposes. (they send me a pic once).
Know what size TB/inlet does the CTSV have?
Last edited by MindBend; 07-07-2013 at 09:51 AM.
07-07-2013, 11:04 AM
#337
That's kinda what I did, moved the reservoir amongst other things. I just moved it about a half inch though. That's all it needed to get the pipe through although it's a 3.5 pipe and ill soon put a 4" on it if I keep this car. I originally fabbed up that pipe when I put just the blower, headers and HE on back in March. When i didn't get the tune from Weistec I just started adding more parts to the stock engine while I was waiting on them, and waiting for the MID block to get done. It turned into a full engine build using the stock block and now I don't think the 3.5 pipe is gonna cut it. Now finally in July I just got the file from Weistec Thursday. I feel good about it, I don't think these guys have anything but good intentions however I honestly just think their technical skill far exceeds their business experience and on top of that they're also understaffed. FWIW I've been in the performance game my whole life at a high level, and have a very accurate bulls+#t detector and after talking to this guy Steve from there feel that he knows his stuff.
Cal's CTSV has the stock 90mm tb on it AKAIK but I'm not 100%. It's now a 7.0 liter engine still handicapped using the stock blower, and power still peaked at 6700 RPM! Talk about some heat that 1.9 blower should be cranking out!!
Cal's CTSV has the stock 90mm tb on it AKAIK but I'm not 100%. It's now a 7.0 liter engine still handicapped using the stock blower, and power still peaked at 6700 RPM! Talk about some heat that 1.9 blower should be cranking out!!
I don't believe it will be the end-all, but is HAS to help--I'm certain. By moving the coolant tank, there's lots of room of there for innovative ideas.
As mentioned before, the IAT sensor is in an out-of-the way location and surely doesn't get an accurate reading and heat-soaks.
I'd like to plumb-in somewhere better with my logger's sensor and see what the real numbers are. Weistec has told me that they verified it's about 10-15° off since they have tapped temp sensors into all the runners for their logging purposes. (they send me a pic once).
Know what size TB/inlet does the CTSV have?
As mentioned before, the IAT sensor is in an out-of-the way location and surely doesn't get an accurate reading and heat-soaks.
I'd like to plumb-in somewhere better with my logger's sensor and see what the real numbers are. Weistec has told me that they verified it's about 10-15° off since they have tapped temp sensors into all the runners for their logging purposes. (they send me a pic once).
Know what size TB/inlet does the CTSV have?
07-07-2013, 04:37 PM
#338
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thx for the pointer re the AEM gauge.
08-09-2013, 10:21 PM
#339
08-10-2013, 11:01 AM
#342
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm not speaking of weistec when I say this bc I've had no experience with them. In my experience/belief customer service has become a lost art. My experience with vendors is strikingly different than it was 5-10years ago. It's also why I strive so hard to not be THAT vendor to my customers.
08-10-2013, 08:59 PM
#343
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2011
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2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
Last edited by gaspam; 08-10-2013 at 09:05 PM.
08-10-2013, 09:29 PM
#344
MBWorld Fanatic!
lol your mad because the president of a company didnt call you back right away about an AIR FILTER??.... well you know what,,,,, I called the president of our corporation called USA and can you believe it, but obama hasnt called my back yet!!! so i guess america sucks because the president didnt call me back..
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
08-10-2013, 11:22 PM
#345
MBWorld Fanatic!
lol your mad because the president of a company didnt call you back right away about an AIR FILTER??.... well you know what,,,,, I called the president of our corporation called USA and can you believe it, but obama hasnt called my back yet!!! so i guess america sucks because the president didnt call me back..
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
08-11-2013, 07:46 AM
#350
Super Member
lol your mad because the president of a company didnt call you back right away about an AIR FILTER??.... well you know what,,,,, I called the president of our corporation called USA and can you believe it, but obama hasnt called my back yet!!! so i guess america sucks because the president didnt call me back..
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
steve jobs never called me back either about my iphone charger so apple sucks
of and dont even get me started on jenna jameson and her vivid productions **** company!! I have called her soooo many times and no response!! that's it, i am not watching her movies ever again!
