Welwynnick

Either 200 degree air slams into the first half of the stock cooler, or 200 degree air slams into the top half of a Whipple cooler. I don't see the difference. The Whipple configuration should have a lower pressure loss, but the stock cooler doesn't sound too bad.

The stock inlet configuration is much less elegant than the Whipple configuration, though. Is that so the throttle can be downstream of the cooler?

Nick

EREBUS

Intercooler core surface contact area, Nick. There is a big difference between the two set-ups.

BRH AMG

I have my intercooler cut apart at the moment, the measurement of the core is 5" wide by 8" long and 3.5" deep.

JoeNobody

Use two air to water exchangers would work a lot better than the stock single large exchanger. Both exchangers must be the thermally isolated, from each other (i.e. No welding them onto the same metal parts), or else you lose most of the benefits.

Getting the plumbing figured out in that tight area would be a bunch of work.

Welwynnick

Thanks for that, it's good to get some solid facts. 5 x 8 x 3.5 = 140 cu in = 2.3 litres

That's better, but its still small for a 5.5 litre engine. An average modern turbo-charged car will have an air-air intercooler that sits in front of the condenser and radiator and measures 60 x 40 x 3cm. That's about 7 litres volume, of which half will be used by the charge air side. So that's at least 3 litres for a run-of-the-mill, 2.0 litre, humdrum, everyday car. Say 140 bhp. That's not selective data; that's typical. So yes, even 2.3 litres isn't really enough.

Anybody know how big the Weistec intercooler is?

Nick

Hulk

Sorry was nearly 2 years I had mine apart lol

rockthemullet

You just tried to compare an air to air intercooler to an air to water intercooler... the thermal transfer efficiency is completely different, that's apples to oranges.


The intercooler is the bottleneck. Period. I don't know why this convo is still going

Hulk

Circular

BagMan

I would think the CLK-DTM would have a good cooling setup since it was designed to run as a race car. I know it had a bigger intercooler in the stock m113k location, but I don't know much else. Did it run a different pump or heat exchanger?

Here's an old thread with some cool pics and info.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...tercooler.html

Welwynnick

That's an interesting thread - seems you can fit SLR coolers in an E55. The DTM IC doesn't look that much bigger, though. Maybe 3.0 litres vs 2.3 litres.

I think comparing air-air to air-water makes perfect sense for various reasons. Air-air coolers have been developed for many years, and air-water was in its infancy in comparison. The air-air boys had pretty much figured out how to make it work by then. One advantage was to take the lessons learned from large diesel trucks, which used them for a long time. If you look at heavy truck coolers, they're HUGE, compared with cars with similar power. Its a kind of industrial evolution - that's what works. Cars are heading the same way, and Mercedes were low down the learning curve in 2002.

The other thing that air-air coolers have is a similar volume distribution between the ambient and charge air heat channels. Its about 50:50, and I figure that's a lesson that's been learned the hard way. I seems to make sense, but I don't think there's any hard reasoning why it HAS to be that way, except that it works. Auto air conditioning seems to work on the same basis - the condenser and the evaporator are usually the same volume.

Since an air-air cooler is little more than an air-water cooler and a water-air cooler back to back, but without the water system, I think it makes sense that water cooling should start off by following the same rules.

Anyway, this is the reason why I don't think this thread is going circular. Here's the question I was building up to:

Q. What is it that causes heat soak?

1. Heat exchanger too small?
2. Intercooler too small?
3. Circulation pump too small?
4. All of them?

Nick

Hulk

The IC is too small and not efficient period,no matter how big the heat exchanger or how much flow the pump gives. As rockthemullet said its the bottle neck. A member here has changed out the core to a better one and still didn't get much better, the space is too small to make it efficient especially when there's more boost as most here have.

KonradS

Hi there.
My 2007 s600 has turbo coolant leak form lines. It happened second time. First time about two/ three months ago left turbo was leaking. MB dealer shop in Hoffman Estates, IL did repair including overhauling engine. One, left turbo line rubber ring was leaking but they replace in both since engine was overhauled. NOW both are leaking. Lucky is under labor warranty which would save me 2-$2,5 K ( this dealer ship is great, always do good job and they know me v well since I'm servicing my cars there )

QUESTIONS PLEASE: Is there anything else to do other than replacing rubber o'rings ? Do they need to apply some sort of liquid sealant / glue to seale this rubber rings ?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH GUYS !

Welwynnick

Not really the right forum, but I happen to have done that job (difficult). The coolant feed & return lines are sealed with O-rings, and they deteriorate. The oil lines are flat, clamped gaskets, and are more robust. There's nothing else. If you tried to seal them with anything else, it would probably burn.

If by any chance the dealer suggests changing other things at the same time for a low price, like diverter valves or engine mounts, accept the offer.

Nick

Welwynnick

Here's what I was thinking. If the IC is too small, that means it can't put that much heat into the coolant. And whatever it can put in, the larger HE will be able to dissipate (unless parked).

If it was the other way round, with a large IC and small HE, the latter would be the bottleneck instead. The heat would be queuing up in the coolant circuit, waiting to get out through the HE.

So my thought is that heat soaking is a function of an inadequate HE (or pump) rather than a small intercooler.

Nick

rockthemullet

Incorrect. The blower spins higher and higher, introducing more and more heat into the intercooler. The intercooler cannot dissipate fast enough, the heat increases. The first run has near ambient IATs, the next run is say ambient +30°F and so on. I'm not sure how much simpler this can be stated. If you think this is wrong, then add a 15ft² heat exchanger on the front of the car and prove it. I will bow down.

whipplem104

It sounds like to me that there is no point to discussing this any further because people are simply going to believe what they want to believe. Heat soak and intercooler efficiency are 2 different issues. Heat soak is a water temp/flow issue and intercooler efficiency is not.
The length of the core actually helps with overall air temp drop but hurts air flow. Same for any heat exchanger. Most of the heat in any process is taken out by the 1st few rows because that is where the highest temperature difference is. Now you could have a flow problem where the water is not flowing evenly throughout the core but this will be more of a pump flow/pressure issue. If this is the issue you could add another set of ports to the back side of the heat exchanger with another pump running water from the rear. Divide the tank and run it as two independent systems.
Anyways just some food for thought.

Welwynnick

Good idea. That's pretty much what they do with the V12 intercoolers. Its a quasi-counter-flow system (with twin 3 litre coolers).

Welwynnick

Sure it does, but because the cooler is inefficient, it has high thermal resistance, and tends to protect the rest of the cooling system. If the cooler was effective, it would pass the heat on to the water. However, it isn't, so it doesn't, and the water doesn't overheat. Therefore its just the cooler that gets hot.

If it was the other way round, with a good cooler and poor HE, the heat would be transferred to the water, but the HE wouldn't be able to dissipate it fast enough. Therefore the cooler AND the coolant would get hot. That's worse, because of the heat capacity of the water.

Nick

rockthemullet

And now we're on the same page

s14dk

So what kind of Heat exchangers are guys running in their cars..

what are my options?

trabots

I am installing the Eurocharged stage 3 kit here in Perth. I apologize for not reading all the posts on this thread. Why do these 55's use engine coolant at 180deg or is there a valve or something which keeps the coolant separate between the the engine and the intercooler/exchanger system and only opens when the latter needs more fluid?

Should I run the new heat exchanger in series with the existing one? The kit has a Johnson CM30 pump. Is there an engine bay I/C tank available and is it really needed? Thanks in advance.

Welwynnick

Please avoid the CM30 at all costs. It's the worst of all the popular IC pumps by almost all measures. Evidence below.

Regards, Nick

trabots

I am hoping to run the new H/E in parallel with the stock one. That should reduce flow resistance and remove more heat. You say the CM30 is no better than the stock pump. How about using both pumps? Will the electrical circuit handle the load of the extra pump if wired in parallel? Thanks.

JoeNobody

Run the heat exchangers in series, it'll work better. Yeah you could use both pumps, but I think it's simpler to just install a fresh 010 pump or upgrade to a truly better pump like CWA

trabots

I have a Piersburg CWA 50 coming from ebay. Surely using a separate water supply will lower temps even further? Is there an under hood tank recommended? Thanks for the assistance all.