rsteele

A confession from the outset: I'm a traditional BMW addict and new to this forum.

I have a 2001 BMW E39 M5. I love it, but it will have to be replaced within a year or so. I am undecided between a MB E55 AMG and the next E60 M5. The E55 is a great car; the next M5 will be a great car. I came to this forum to learn more about the E55. I started to post on another M5 vs. E55 thread, but all of the, "my-phallus-is-bigger-than-yours" stuff was disappointing, so I thought a new thread was in order. In truth, I can buy and modify a Cadillac CTS-V right now for 600 hp and still pay much less than the cost of either the M5 or the E55. I haven't test driven the E55 AMG. I gather that none of you has test driven the E60 M5, so let's give each other some space.

If you really want to learn about the next M5, check out the following:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43551

The next M5 will be a very entertaining and versatile luxury car. I like the looks of the next M5. Arguably, the E55 exterior and even more so the interior are better looking. The E55 and M5 will differ in their personalities. The next M5 will be lighter than the E55. It should handle very well. It will be very high performing...and very high-reving to achieve that performance. I want to learn more about the E55: its personality, its positive attributes, and its deficiencies. I already anticipate that the E55 offers effortless power and elegance.

I'm honestly looking for information...not a polarized debate. There is no need to "defend" the E55 against the M5. I know the E55 is a great car.

I thank you for any input in advance.

FIXEDupW209

you have to weigh your options. What do you like more? You like more of a sport feel or more of a luxury feel? Both cars, although post similar numbers are completely different in my opinion and no matter what you're gonna end up with a beautiful car. I would personaly stick to your E39 for another year as you will do and then jump into the E55 as it has been out for a while now and you wont be buying a first model year car which you will be doing with the m5. Also, the interior and exterior of the m5 gets mixed reactions whereas the E55 is liked by most. Just my .2 cents take it for what its worth and welcome to the boards. Lets try and keep this thread clean guys, hopefully we wont have a troll come in here and ruin it for the rest of us.

rsteele

Much thanks for your input. There is the E60 M5 waiting list issue and the probability that I couldn't buy a new M5 until 2006 at the earliest, likely its second year of production in Europe. And then again did I correctly assertain from somewhere on this message board that an update of the E55 was expected in 2006? In that case I would either be buying the end of an E55 series (translate: "plummeting resale value") or the "risky" start of a new E55 series.

Those may be ancillary issues. I tend to keep a car for around seven years. Given the reputation of MB and BMW and their warrantee support for any early model problems, I would think that my major focus should be on finding a car that I'll be happy with.

Here's my dilemma in a nutshell. I need a sports sedan. I appreciate cornering well, but I also appreciate low end torque. I don't want to wrestle a "pig" around a corner, but I also don't want to scream the engine to 6000 rpm or above to feel accelerative thrust. Who makes the car I want? MB, BMW, or neither? I am particularly interested in how the E55 feels in the curves, and how well the transmission responds to throttle input in automatic mode and gear selection in manual mode.

stephens

The only achilles heel of the E55 is it's front end. The brakes are great, not up to track work, but neither are ANY BMW's released do far.
You can change to 19's with wider tyres and lower thecar for a major improvement, but it is still a step behind the old W210 and E39 M5 IMO.
I am going to try some offset pins with different front end geometry to try and cure the problem, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. The e55 was created with autobahn and long sweeping corners in mind, not narrow twisting country roads.

stephens

Update
I just called a friend with a tyres/suspension shop. The car is going in tomorrow morning to see if it can be "fixed" I'll post an update when the job is done.

makken

Hey there,

we can talk all we want here, but the most weight should be on a test drive of the two vehicles. I know it is not possible to test out the E60 right now (maybe try out a 545i 6spd/smg to get a feel for the chassis first?), and it would be extremely hard to convince the dealer to let you test their showroom car when it comes out without a name on the waiting list for the M5. So i would check in and see if you can talk to your dealer about getting your name on the waiting list, with the option of a full refund should you not like the car based on the test drive.

Also, keep in mind that the new M5 has the same amount of torque as the old one. granted, it comes in at a little higher rpm than the previous one, but the E60 is also lighter and has an 7spd transmission. Based on this alone, i would imagine that the low end pull on that car would be roughly equal to the current (E39) M5. The question now is, are you satisified with how the E39 pulls low end?

The E55's pull, of course, is in a whole different league.

W210

Hello rsteele, I recognize your name from the M5 board and have shared with you my tricks trading from my W210 E55 to R230 SL500 to W211 E55.

I'm definitely interested in the M5 as I'm first on the list at a local dealer with a deposit. I had my name down for the M5 since 2002.

I have been driving a 2004 E55 for the past 8 months and I'm very happy with it.

Like everyone else, I do not like the exterior and interior of the M5, however, I will probably get used to it in time. The new light colour interior with the aluminum does look much nicer than the regular 5 series.

However, it appears that to equip a M5 with the specification I want (full leather to hide the cheap panels, navigation, active and upgraded seats, heads up display, etc.), the car will be rather expensive when compared to the E55.

However, finances aside, what really worries me with the new M5 is the questionable ergonomics.

I have never driven a car with SMG and with the 5 automatic modes and 6 manual shift patterns, added on top the iDrive and the many performance enhancing buttons, Power, DSC, EDC, I seriously question whether it will turn into a control mess.

With the E55's variable suspension, I find myself reaching for that button a few times a trip to fine tune my ride wishing that it would be at the steering wheel instead.

With the many additional adjustment options on the M5, what will actually happen? Clearly the single M button at the steering wheel cannot resolve everything just like the iDrive knob cannot effectively eliminate the more efficient buttons.

I use the M5 or E55 as my daily workhorse sedan and it is important that in addition to the various dynamic controls, the telematics interface has to be usable. Last time I checked the new 5 series do not even have a dial pad for its phone. This is not good.

What I like about the M5 is its handling (I like the handling of the 545i sports package) as well as the new engine, suspension making the car seems like an interesting choice. In addition, the E55 will be phased out in a couple of years' time so I have the itch to get the latest toy before the E63 comes out pushing down the value of the E55. However, the big question mark for me goes back to the ergonomics of the M5: will the inferior interface drive me crazy? How drivable is the car?

Would appreciate anyone with experience with SMG to comment. From BMW, sound rather confusing. I gave up after reading how the MDrive has to be programmed using iDrive.

The sad part is that with all the fuss, the M5 has only similar performance numbers compared to the E55!

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This entails calling up the settings and drive modes previously configured in the MDrive menu of the iDrive. The preset values can be stored in the key memory system.

The following individual functions are pre-selected or activated via MDrive:

* The power button with which the engine characteristics – i.e. output and response – are affected in three stages
* SMG Drivelogic with which one of six sequential or five automatic shift modes are pre-selected – the driver once again benefits from the direct selection of each desired drive or shift mode;
* DSC Dynamic Stability Control featuring two modes of driving dynamics;
* EDC Electronic Damper Control with the three modes – comfort, normal and sport;
* Head-up-Display and
* Active backrest width adjustment.
A new generation of Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) was developed exclusively for the M5: the DSC system can be deactivated via a switch on the centre console. Its driving dynamics programs are pre-selected using the so-called MDrive menu and can be called up by pressing the MDrive button on the steering wheel

M Dynamic Mode (MDM) is introduced on the M5 and is similar to the M3 CSL M Track Mode. It allows the driver to reach the absolute limit of longitudinal and lateral acceleration at the touch of a button on the steering wheel (MDrive-button). The driver is informed of the M Dynamic function by a warning lamp on the instrument panel. Thankfully the driver also can choose to completely disactivate DSC. He is also informed of this by means of a warning lamp.

P400 and P500 mode

Frequently, the driver does not require the M5’s full power output and maximum agility, for example in town traffic. For this reason, when the car is started, the markedly comfortable P400 power mode with 400 HP is automatically activated. However, simply by pressing the Power button situated on the selector lever cover, the driver has at his disposal the full power of ten cylinders.
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rsteele

So there will be an E63 in a couple of years? Is there any advance information on this car? Will it be an entirely new body style, etc., or is it the same body style with enhanced power in response to the new M5?

I agree that BMW seems suddenly to have assaulted the driver with technical complexity. For some, the next M5 will be a fascinating toy, and for others very daunting to learn. Six manual and five automatic SMG modes is just too many for day-to-day usage, and then there are the various suspension choices. I can foresee needing at least a year to learn how each combination of all available factors affects the behavior of the car under a variety of circumstances, if it's even possible to record and compare all combinations of those options with the seat of my pants or on notebook paper. The M-Mode button implies that from all this bewildering array of choices, the driver will select two combinations for day-to-day usage. And among these choices is the p400/500 hp button. The p400 choice certainly requires greater elaboration from BMW.

When reference is made to "front end weakness" in the E55, am I correct in assuming that the car understeers in the corners? Tight corners, broad sweepers, or both? How do you feel about the way the E55 changes gears? Does a throttle kick-down in automatic mode occur with a smooth transition, or does it cause whiplash? How quickly and smoothly do the gears change in manual mode? What do you think about E55 steering feel?

Jdub87(im back)

OK , well according to the recent press release the M5 seems to be extremely technologically advanced, and it will be a drivers car no doubt, which will mena you will havew to be experienced to fully utilize the power and capabilities of the car. As i see you own a e39 M5, so this will help you adjust to the new m5 if you decide to buy the e60 m5. the new m5 has a Power button, in which if it is not engaged then the ECU enignie mapping is changed and it allows you only to 400BHP, the same as the e39. but when the power button is pressed then the engine mapping changes allowing 507bhp at your disposal. thsi button is extremely clever in my opinion as it suggest the 507 bhp monster will be extremely hard to control if driven in a town situation. so the button helps the driver to control the car on say journeys to work where 507bhp is not needed. the power button is there aslo to help fuel consumtion, and reduce engine wear. so the M5 will have a fast mode , and a extremely fast mode. so technically the e60 m5 is on track. the looks of the new m5 often are a troublespot, but as you like it then that is no problem. i think the attention to detail on the m5 is just above that of the E55, thats opinion though. asl othe top speed is 205mph unrestrcite4d!!!
now on tho the E55, well this cars performance is incredible, its got tons of hp and torque on tap and is effortless in acceleration. it just wants more and more. luxury, looks and build qualtiy are all excellent- BUT the one problem is that E55 sin particular are so common on roads today- the only way to get people to notice it is to have a wacky paint job etc. e55 still a cracking car though, but remember it is ageing. Also if you like modding your cars the E55 is easy to rasie up , but the N/A enigne of the M5 will be hard to upgrade, and may only be able to increase by 50-60 hp .
good luck wotever car u wish to puersue, and remeber they are both cracking cars so wotever you choose u will not b dissapointed>

rsteele

As far as I know, BMW has provided torque and hp curves for the 507 hp mode, but no information for the 400 hp mode, except to indicate that it will be more comfortable for average daily driving. This could mean that low end torque is increased at the expense of high end power. It would be great to have a broad, flat torque curve as a choice that raises torque at the low and mid range, but reduces the high rpm torque surge. I have watched a video of the M5 as it accelerates up the rpm range. When it moves into its torque/power peak, it suddenly becomes a different beast. This could be an unpleasant surprise around town. Of course, BMW could also reduce gas consumption, engine wear, and horsepower by simply applying a 5700 rpm rev limit, but that would be like setting the car up to be much less satisfactory than the old M5 by default.

If you have a more detailed source for information on the p400 horsepower mode than I've seen in BMW's press releases, I would very much appreciate this information. What I would really like to see is the hp and torque curves for the p400 mode, since that's how BMW thinks one should drive the car most of the time.

Thanks.

Jdub87(im back)

yes BMW have released a torque/hp curve curve (see http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43137&highlight=m5+torque+curve ). The performance figures given by BM are only for the P500 mode, and they are spectacular. I feel the stated 4.7 s to 62mph will be tested independantly and will lower- just as the MB E55 did wen it was relaesed and tested by independant parites. MB claimed a 0-62 of 4.7, many magazines manged to get figures of 4.4s. but anyway there is no information about the performance of the P400 mode and all i have is from the press release, so we need to wait until a proper road test is done, or BMW release even more thourough information.

irfy

The E39 M5, very nice car, I drove this with a passion for over four years. In truth I looked at the E60 M5, to be perfectly honest that is the extent of my research. It looks UGLY!!!! both inside and out. I have made a shift from BMW to MB perhaps not by desire however by default in the absence of the BMW producing anything that does not make me turn away in disgust.

I have a new E55 very happy with this purchase. I will not evaluate the M5 unless the shape goes through major plastic surgery.

In short out with the old in with the new.

Irfy.

Kens-E55

RSTEELE

I appreciate your desire to compare realistically. I've had 5 different styles of performance cars in my last 15 years and hopefully can give some good feedback as to your ?'s:

I owned 2 different Impala SS 95 & 96 (stroked to 383 // 425hp-440tq)
& had (1 of 3 in US) Twin Turbo Lexus GS 400s that did 450hp-440tq) so I've seen many differing performance perameters. Now my synopsis of the E55:

The throttle response, Torque, and flawless,effortless acceleration of the
E-55 you have to drive to believe.(For a stock showroom vehicle) Even though the present M5 is a little lighter on its feet, unless you push the E-55 HARD in handling; day to day driving, even spirited I would classify as "Very Tight and Crisp" The transmission is fast and smooth in handling the power. I've come to enjoy the Manual mode using the Gear lever, however the tranny is quite intuitive based on your throttle input to downshift quickly and smoothly. The performance upgrade possibilities are numerous also, but I find myself not running to the Perf. Shop as I've done with my last cars 'cause the performance is already there!! I consistently run 1/4mi trap speeds of 115-117 mph in 90 degree S.Fla. weather!! As a comparo your present M5 will only do 102-103 trap speed in 90 degree weather. I was in a position to buy a present M5- an Audi RS6 or the E-55. For the Performance dollar value, there really was no comparo. The nice thing about the E-55.....
no matter who is beside you (unless its an Enzo) you already know that if you want to, you will grab the merge lane before the guy beside you!!!
I'm sure the new M5 will be nice, but still remember it is the first year of a new design. Electronically and Drivetrain wise, that could be a nightmare!!
A few downsides to the E-55: you may find the interior to be a bit "tight". I'm 6'2" and had more interior ****pit room in my GS400. (It is however roomier than your present M5) The GPS Nav I find to be difficult to use "quickly", and the Charcoal Nubuck Interior is HOT!!! Even with
these -'s , once I drove my E-55, I could have cared less. When you feel 516lb of Tq @ 2600rpm under your right foot, it has a way of making you "Giddy"

Happy decision making

Bikr Boy

As a BMW owner for 30 years, and now an E55 owner I feel qualified to speak to this issue. The "look" of the new 5er sent me over to the Mercedes section at my local auto show. When I saw the E55 it was love at first sight. Much like my previous BMW's. As for the driving of the car, I am quite pleased. The power is just unbelievable. I have come up on cars on the interstate going 90 mph and BLOWN past them with ease. It is really a feeling that is quite amazing. The handling of the car is quite good 95% of the time. It does not handle as well as my previous BMW 540i 6 sp. That being said, I am still THRILLED with the car. I wouldn't trade it for any sedan on the market today.....even the new M5 when it arrives.

How can I say that without driving the new M5? History tells us that all new BMW motors have been quite troublesome the first year. Look at the first 12cyl. Look at the first 8 cyl. Look at the new M3 when it arrived. Would I take such a chance with a new 10 cyl. BMW? Not even with your money. Well maybe with your money...but not mine.

MBE55AMG

To sum it up, I don't think you can go wrong with the E55.

It's a magnificent vehicle and sure to amaze.

Good luck.

rsteele

Your responses are greatly appreciated. I'll weigh them carefully, as I read the E60 M5 test reports and snoop around the local MB showroom, which always has an E55 on display.

krispykrme

I am a minority here. But if you really like E39 steering feedback, you will be dissappointed with E55's steering response. It's not E55 does not handle well. In fact the grip is excellent with minimal body roll. But power steering effort needs to be more linear.

I had issues with grabby brake, which has been fixed. So that is no longer an issue. The power of E55 is very addicting. Power delivery is smooth and effortless.

Exterior styling wise, I think the E60 M5 looks way better than W211 E55. Interior W211 is much better. So it's a draw in my opinion.

The new M5 has several points that really worries me. 1. SMG only for the 1st couple years. No matter how much preaching that BMW is doing, I still do not like SMG. 2. Torque suxx. Like the M3, the torque looks very bad at low end. which means, any decent car with 400 HP could kill M5 easily if the M5 is in wrong gear. 3. P400/P500 mode switching. This is also stupid in my opinion. It leads me to believe that the new V10 is not durable, hence for every day driving the output has to be detuned.

M5 will probably be more fun and sporty to drive. E55's power is just so smooth. Torque is just out of this world.

As far as product maturity goes, you are always taking a big risk with 1st year german car. Especially when BMW is developing it's own ECU on the new M5.

E55's weight is a draw back for it to be a true sports sedan. M5 will be lighter and more nimble. But I am very concerned with lack of torque on the M5. Espeically with a non-flat torque curve.

krispykrme

also forgot to mention that according to the press release. The new M5 pulled 1.03G on the skid pad. Which is amazing for the car with its size.

I really think that the new M5 will drive like a bigger version of the M3, which is not a bad thing. But it's not a luxury cruiser like the E55. I fully expect that the new E60 will ride extremely harsh but handle like a dream. May be i should take a trip to germany in october and take a ride in the ring taxi. I believe E60 M5 will be replacing the E39 M5 by september.

W210

Problem is that the ring is not the best place to gauge a car's street ride.

absent

Unfortunately,my daily commute and 95% of my driving does not resemble a typical BMW commercial(nice,empty,twisty road in a beautiful area,closed for traffic by the local Sheriff because of the filming of the commercial)

Jdub87(im back)

i feel the old M5 is a much more involving car than the current E55, dont get me wrong the immense power on offer by the E55 is great, but also being an auto it is quite uninvolvnig for the driver. BMWs driver responses are excellent, in the old m5 you can feel the surface of the road you are driving over in your bum through the seat. the steering is crisp, and the balance of the car is very hard to beat. lets hope the new m5 will again be as involving as the e39.

cte430

Didn't we determine when you were banned that you were 17? exactly how much time behind the wheel of the current M5 have you had? How much time behind the wheel of the E55 have you had? I restrained myself from responding to your other threads, but you are too much. Your thread clearly indicates that you have a lot of experience with BOTH cars. Don't you think that's a little misleading to the gentleman who started this thread? He came here looking for opinions from OWNERS of the E55. What part of that don't you get? Get some experience driving some of these cars first, instead of spewing magazine quotes. We all know how to search the 'net for info.

You are clearly a BMW fan, which is fine. What's up with the hostility between the two cars though? They are both awesome cars, and i'm not lost on the fact of how lucky I am to be in a position where I can purchase a car like this. Maybe that's your problem. Maybe you can't get beyond the magazine articles, or of being a "fan". Maybe that's an age thing.

This may be lost on you, but has it occured to you that AMG CHOOSES to make their cars the way they are?? I spoke with the marketing manager of AMG last month and asked him about some of the "weaknesses" of the E55. His comment was very simple. It's a corporate decision. They know who they are selling their cars to. We all here know the weaknesses of the E55, so you are not shedding any new light. Do you think I spent 85K without checking out other vechiles and deciding what is and isn't important to me? Do you have any idea how insulting that is?

I have been posting lately on the M5 board and could not be treated any better or with more respect. You know why? Because I didn't go on there like an a-hole telling everybody how their M5's suck. You may want to try the following: Before ever posting on any forum again, ask yourself "would I walk up to a stranger and say this to his face"? before you post. If you did, you'd probably get hit with some of your comments made here.

Jdub87(im back)

Yes i am seventeen, my dad who owns a e39 M5, lets me practise in his car, and i do know how it performs, and often watching and feeling how he drives helps me come to a judgement of the car. my dad has also test driven the E55 on three occasions and i have been present then. so yes i do know how the car drives and handles. its not insulting to the starter of this thread as im passing on my experiences- thats the purpose of this post!
If you take my recent comments as an insult then so be it, but it wasnt intended for that.

Doctodd33

Long thread wich i couldnt read entirely, but let me chime in real quick. MB will not be covering regular maintenance with 2005 models i think...maybe starting with 2006 models. I drove an E55 at the AMG Challenge in Miami at very high speeds and it drove very well, but still very luxurious. Almost all street cars have understeer built in for safety reasons. You can easily change that and stiffen up the suspension if you want.

If you want to really check out an E55 at it's limits, you can go to the Indianapolis AMG Challenge on July 23 and drive one for yourself. I love BMW but i dont think i would want to wait so long for an M5 and have the possible first model year gremlins.

T

Bikr Boy

There is a 17 year old kid on this board giving his opinions based on riding with his dad in an E55?? Why is he allowed on here when he obviously cannot add any insight as to ANYTHING? Whoever you are JDUB please go back to video games and leave the driving comparisons to the people who actually DRIVE the cars!!!