BoBcanada

The post is originaly from BMwm5 guy, remember who test drove the E55 lol

Anyway here it is!

supposedly.... got it from another forum.... very impressive.

and the e60 m5 is not even out yet...

notice the general lack of turbos... also engines grew in size... my only gripe is that if they just stuffed those heavier engines in there, without redoing the suspension- handling would be even worse than in the current line up...


C55 367hp replace-> C60 420hp V8 NA and C63 520hp V8 NA

CLK55 retained + CLK63 520hp V8 NA

E55 467hp replace-> E63 530hp V8 NA

SLK55 360hp replace-> SLK60 420hp V8 NA + SLK63 420hp V8 NA

Current S65 + S63 (new) 530-550hp

CLS55 -> replace-> CLS63 520-550hp
+ new CLS65 ( with Biturbo engine share with S65 ) 700hp

CL55 replace-> CL63 V8 NA + current CL65 700hp V12 TT

SL55 replace-> SL63 V8 NA + the will be a current SL65 700Hp V12 TT

ML55 347hp replace-> new M-Class ML60 420hp 6 litre V8 NA
+ ML63 6.3 V8 520hp NA

I kinda agree on the suspension comment and it would be great if they would include LSD in future cars!

here's the thread too:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=49387

What you think guys?

DerekFSU

Interesting. What do you folks, who know all about tuning, think about tuning a NA V-8 as opposed to the current engine?

I'm number 2 on the M5 waiting list for BMW of Long Island so I plan on running them against eachother later this year.

DerekFSU

What does Marcus "Have I mentioned heat soak" Frost have to think about it? I don't want a NA 8 cylinder that can't be made faster than stock.

Jakpro1

I agree with the comments on the link you provided. Taking off the blower and not replacing with at least one turbo will KILL our torque....which for me is just about my favorite part of the car. I hear the Benz searches these forums looking for feedback...if so....PLEASE PLEASE GIVE US TWIN TURBOS GUYS. I big heavy lower torque/higher hp motor is just not what I would run out and trade up for. Of course some may disagree and that is fine....just my input...NOW, I also HATE the fact that we are trapped into so few mod options with current blower setup so I would be open to any engine setup that we could mod the hell out of with more choices for less $$$.

They'll impress...that's for sure, I have faith.

AMGB

I too am in love with our low end torque. But I was thinking, most of the time, we can't get all the torque down on the payment anyways. Even with my new PS2 275 in the rears, you have to easy on the petal. So, suppose we give up a bit of torque, but we gain more in the mid to higher end. I won't want to give up a lot of torque, but enough so I can floor the petal without having to worry about the tires and ESP limiting my fun.

What are your thoughs?????

amgB

Evolution Marine

Lets put things in perspective here concerning N/A HP .

The new LS7 Corvette motor puts out 500 HP and 475 lb. ft. of Torque at 7 Liters (71 HP per Liter, 7000 Rpm Redline),

The Vipor motor puts out 500 HP and 525 lb. ft. of Torque at 8.3 Liters (60 HP per Liter, 5800 RPM Redline),

The M5 motor puts out 500HP, 384 lb.ft. Of Torque at 5 Liters (100 HP per Liter, 8250 RPM Redline)

The Ferrari 430 motor puts out 483HP, 343 lb. ft. of Torque at 4.3 Liters
(112 HP per Liter, 8500-RPM Redline)

Now, if you have noticed, the larger displacement motors accomplish their HP numbers at a lower RPM and the smaller displacement motors accomplish their numbers at a higher RPM. This is because HP is primarily the result of the amount of air moved thru the motor.

So, to increase the HP of a N/A motor you need to increase the efficiency (cams, porting, larger valves, intake manifold design, and exhaust system design = a lot of $$$$$) and/or the RPMs.

In a Forced Induction (FI) motor you need to turn up the boost and deal with the extra heat generated, due to the increased HP, and that is it, for what we would need. You can do all the N/A items above also, and the FI motor will respond to them as well, however, their cost is high and we can get enough HP by turning up the boost and doing some heat management and not have to spend the EXTRA money!

FI motors are more easily modified (less $$$$) than N/A motors and are not as high revving and nervous as modified N/A motors. FI motors are far more street able than modified N/A motors.

Now, I must say their is nothing more enjoyable than a modified 500+ HP N/A motor in a high performance sports car configuration. However, a Mercedes sedan is not a Sports Car and would not be a good match for a high revving modified N/A 500+ HP motor.

So, keep your E55s, SL55s, and the soon to be CLS55s and upgrade (LSD, Drag Radials, Intercooler upgrade, Headers, Pulley Upgrade, Exhaust Upgrade, Brake Pad Upgrade) them as the aftermarket develops the various tuning parts needed for 550+ WHP and you can wave good buy to all your N/A buddies, because those N/A motors will never produce the Torque numbers needed. - Bob

reggid

The 6.3L NA will likely have a flatter torque curve than any of the SC 55 engines, not as high at the crank but with 2 extra gears at the wheels it will probably be better. The MB NA engines won't be like the M5 motor which has a peaky torque curve, so a flat torque curve and decent gearing will still give good urge even down low!

I trust AMG know what they are doing and they will improve over the current models.

VelocitE55

If MB is indeed scanning this forum for customer suggestions, then I have only one thing to say....COUGH UP SOME F'ing LSD's ALREADY, WHAT HAVE YOU GUYS BEEN THINKING???!!!

Beowulf

I question the source of the information. Someone even asked about the source on the M5 board and never received a reply. That many engine variations sounds commercially questionable.

Bubbaboy

That's exactly what I was thinking.


JD

Bilal

You wanna know where AJ got his info from? HERE!

https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/92879-amg-55-game-over.html

Well, the C55 forum...

Some guy posted once, that the new AMG engine will have 571Hp and 600NM , if thats true, then that would be a superior engine to the V8K. The torque figure is about 180-200NM lower, but with 7G tronic and a flatter torque curve that delivers 80% of max torque at 1500Rrpm and similar amount at peak power, you will get a very flexible, economical and powerful engine. Teh awesomely quick ransmission will help you move into peak power point as quick as possible. Who knows, maybe with less torque, and less reinforcements needed/a few alu'm parts here and there, you may have a slightly lighter car? To get 571hp, you need 90hp/litre, which may not be possible unless revs are in the equation, someone posted an engine diagram that didn't need revs to produce a lot of power, but lets see. BTW, the auto transmissions of MB are limited to 7000rpm engine redline due to their oil, so you may get 500+bhp at 6500-7000rpm?

On the other hand....

I heard that MB is already at the extreme limits of pwer in their cars, putting more power becomes a safety/cost issue for the 55K's at least. Judging by the 350 motor output at 77hp/litrer, and if AMG works according to this output, thay'll get 500bhp out of their V8, which won't be enough to put a gap on the V8K, but with the M5, and self-pride, we may get more power? Who knows, anybody's game.....

The less torque will make 0-60 very "controlled' so to speak, as you guys have mentioned, 600Nm is easier to deploy than 780-800Nm (which the V8K is actually putting out). regardless, its still 100Nm more than M5... :p

Jakpro1

Watch after all this speculation...they tweak the current motor and add 35hp......so help me I'LL.....nah, still wouldn't get the M5.

M&M

Bilal good post. However, there are a few things I'd like to add.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about the M5, but that is the benchmark by which the E63 will be measured.

1stly, the M5 is 290-300lbs lighter than the current E55. I know Improviz will come along with some links to dispute that but Sport Auto has tested both cars twice (different sets of car) that was the weight difference as tested. I know each OEM has their own method of rating the weight, but the tested weights are what we want.

Now, the M5 will have about 80NM (110lb/ft) less than the E63. As wel all know its not about the outright torque but the torque/weigh ratio. If yu have less weight to pull, you need less torque.

Then there's the fact that the M5 has a more efficient drivetrain. Manual & LSD with low profile tyres incurs less loss than auto with a torque convertor. Also a shorter geared car gets more torque to the wheels than a longer geared one (all other things being equal).

For everyday driving the E63 will be a more relaxed cruiser with more torque on tap, but the M5 will have enough low down as the in-gear times are showing.

But once you start racing the M5 will have the advantage. Why? Well it revs to 8200rpm & a quick shift & short gearing will ensure that the revs are never below 6000rpm. It has max torque at 6100rpm so it will be in the powerband & holding the torque to redline.

E63 will have max torque at around 3500rpm which you will never see in a race after 1st gear. Big V8's tend to drop off power at high rpm.

DerekFSU

Other than trolling, what does this have to do with upcoming AMG models?

M&M

Here's what its got to do. AMG will target the M5 for its performance numbers. Specifically 0-200 km/h (0-124mph) which is big marketing hype in Germany.

Therefore they will need a minum of 550hp in order to beat the M5. Anything below that & the M5 will lunch it & probably the outgoing E55 will beat it as well. They cannot do that with a 6.3 V8.

They will need at least a 7.0l to do 550hp. Therefore I predict 500hp, 600NM if they stick with the 6.3 (most probable). Or on the off chance they go 7.0 or 7.3, I predict 550hp & 700NM (same torque as current E55).

But hey, I could be talking bull, so let's see what happens.

Bilal

Its anybody's game, but AMG will HAVE to make a car that is superior to the M5, it HAS to be. Otherwise they'll be no point of competition.

Let see, our prayers will be answered nearer to October this year as AMG will have released the S-class model by then...

M&M

I sincerely hope they do beat the M5. But I think the law of diminishing returns will start applying soon. With too much power comes more traction issues & newer cars only outrunning the older ones at higher speed. I remember reading one test with a CL55 vs CL65 shoot-out & the difference were very little. To 60mph it was 0.1 & to 100mph it was 0.6 I think. It was only after 100mph that the 65 started pulling away quickly.

Signal

I dont know if any of this is true but...

Its been told to me by both MB reps, and Audi reps that the demise of forced induction on most of their cars is due to EPA clean air regs. The NA engines apparently can meet the new standards while the turbos and SC's will not..

Take it for what its worth...

Bilal

SC's were abandoned for pure feul economy, thats what an AMG engineer said.

The only difference that offsets performance of the additional power increase of the 65 vs 55K engine is the torque and full application. With torque comes increased weight through more reinforced components. You can bet if the 65's weighed the same and had wider rubber than their 55K counterparts they would mincemeat them. This new AMG engine will sacrifice outright torque (that is wasted partly) for power and economy and emissions, not to mention sound quality, I can't wait to hear it in the SL....

DerekFSU

True. I'd definitely trade in a bit of torque for a bit more HP so we could get higher trap speeds.

VelocitE55

M&M, you prove both Improv's and Derek's point....why are you in this thread talking about how the M5 will beat the E55 and so on...again? Troll. Do you see "M5" anywhere in the title of this thread? Do you even see "BMW" anywhere in the title? Stop wasting our time, we are MB enthusiasts so you are fighting a losing battle by trying to convince us of the M5's superiority. Recess is over so **** off.

M5KILLR

i thought i read the 7g can only handle a little less than 500tq and the 5sp is around 650-680??? so it would seem if you modded the 7g at all where a 6.3 or 6.5 would be at stock, the trans protects itself by slipping clutches. if this scenario were at all true i, at least would much wrather have the sc55 to mod. and a newly developed motor's r&d costs would have to be reaped asap resulting in a decent jump in price versus the sc55 which has been around a few years.

M&M

Velocity, chill out man. Theis thread is about upcoming AMG models. So if you want to know what to expect y have to look at what the opposition is doing. BMW did that when they designed the E60 M5 & SMG will definitely do it when tey design the E63.

Anyway, forget the opposition for now. Let' see what power to expect. AMG have built a high powered V8 for the Zonda C12S. It's 7.3l & is for use in a supercar. Therefore, the driveability, noise, tractability etc don't have to be as good as a family car. More aggressive cams, exhaust etc can be used on a supercar as it won't be driven everyday.

Anyway, with serious tweaks & engineering the 7.3 AMG V8 makes 555hp & 553 lb/ft. That's 76hp/litre & 75lb/ft / litre.

So in the E63 (although it won' be as racecar-ish & will lose some output) expect 480hp & 472 lb/ft (640NM). Although I expect those are maximum theoretical numbers.

Bilal

The Zonda's engine is an AMG V12....lets see what no's AMG get out of the engine before we apply the principles of the SLK/E350 engine to an AMG V8...

Just for the record, AMG did once build its own four valve heads for the AMG Hammer which ran to 180mph+ back in the 80's....

M&M

Damn! I clean forgot the Zonda has a V12! My bad.

But that just makes it worse. More cylinders each with a smaller capacity allower higher revs & more power/litre. Case in point is that most V10's & V12's make more power than a similar capacity V8.

Therefore I still see 480hp as the maximum AMG can get from a 6.3 V8. Unless there's some revolutionary new concept they are hiding from us.