racer m

I recently had a very unpleasant experience with the company Powerchip, and after several attempts to be diplomatic and solve the problem without resorting to making it public knowledge to no avail, I would like to make everyone aware of just how unprofessional and inept this company is. I had my E63 tuned by PC around 6 months ago, just after taking delivery of my car. I was told by Matt@PC that if I wasn't happy with the power gain I wouldn't have to pay. Feeling that this was a fair deal I agreed and dropped my car off to be tuned. He called me the next day to report that they had gained 20whp on the dyno which seemed like a decent gain to me. After taking delivery of the car, a few days later I received a call from Wayne Besanko. He wanted to know if he could receive payment from me for the tune ($1200) which I approved, and then after the transaction was complete he changed the subject to one of my other cars, my X5M which had been tuned by Gintani/OE Tuning. He suggested that the tune in my X5M was corrupt because it had been installed by a rogue agent tuner, who stole valuable equipment from PC and that I should bring my car in to PC immediately so they could fix the tune or else I could have a motor failure. I told him that my X5M was running great and that I was very happy with the tune (50whp gain from stock) and that I was not interested in being involved in his personal/business related drama. After asking around about this guy and finding out some pretty unsettling information I became skeptical about the tune in my E63 and took it to Gintani/OE Tuning to get a second opinion. When the ECU was removed from the fender it was noticed that 2 of 4 bolts that hold the ECU case to the car were missing, and that the ECU case itself had been pried open with visible damage to it. The ECU circuit board also had visible damage to it. We put the car on the dyno at Gintani and did a baseline with the PC tune and then runs with the car re-flashed to stock. My experience in life is that gut instincts are usually correct, and this was no different. The PC tune actually made LESS HP than stock (~7whp). After Gintani/OE Tuning put their tune on my car it made 30whp over the PC tune! Needless to say, I was NOT HAPPY with the PC tune, and the story gets even better...

I called PC 2 days ago and spoke to Matt, explained the situation and reminded him that he had promised me I didn't have to pay if I wasn't 100% satisfied with my tune. I politely asked for a refund, but after I told them that Gintani was where my car was on the dyno he said he would have to call me right back. Instead, I got another call from Wayne Besanko. I explained the situation again to him, and again he went on to badmouth Gintani/OE Tuning, its employees and anyone who supports them. I explained to him that I was not affiliated with them in any way, just a customer of theirs and an unhappy customer of his. He then suggested that the dyno results from Gintani were fabricated and that I had been lied to, and that there was no way possible that a PC tune could make less HP than the car did in stock form, or that Gintani could even reflash the car to stock form with their equipment. He denied my request for a refund, and then alluded that I was in cahoots with Gintani/OE Tuning. Seeing that the conversation with him was going nowhere I advised him that I did not wish to make this situation public knowledge, but if I didn't get my money back within 48 hours I was going to post it. Then he called me a "fanboy" (not sure what that means), I told him the conversation was over and I would be call AMEX to dispute the charge.

Never in my life have I ever dealt with someone so unprofessional, rude, and assuming. After reading some of the posts he has made on the internet, while representing his company, I can't even comprehend how Powechip can remain in business. It is clearly obvious that this man has a personal vendetta against Gintani/OE Tuning because someone who used to work for him left to work for them. I don't blame him... I can only imagine how Besanko treats his employees after the way he talked to me. I hope that anybody who is planning to tune their AMGs steers clear of Powerchip and avoids having a similar experience. Look at all the negative comments that come up if you just google this guy's name:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Wayne...ient=firefox-a

Also, in the defense of Gintani/OE Tuning, another W212 E63 was just there and received a tune that produced almost identical whp gains to my car: https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...3-gintani.html

Attached are my dyno sheet that includes the Powerchip tune, Stock re-flash, and Gintani/OE Tuning tune and a picture of my damaged ECU casing.

*******I AM IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH GINTANI/OE TUNING. THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST WAS TO TELL MY STORY AND MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF MY EXPERIENCE WITH POWERCHIP AND WAYNE BESANKO*******

TMC M5

How could Gintani "reflash you back to stock"? Unless they had the original software handy (meaning they uploaded it before it went to PC), they wouldn't be able to flash it back to stock. Otherwise, I thought only an MB dealer would have access to the software for your ECU. At least this has been my experience with MB tuners

Tom

badblackbenz550

You will be surprised how many people have the stock tune files on their lap tops =D

jonmartin

If the tuner has the stock values from a stock E63 which I'm sure they did. They can easily change the values back to stock settings on the different tables that have been modified regarding performance.

TMC M5

True, but that isn't necessarily "flashing it back to stock". You would have to trust that they changed all the table settings back to the stock settings. I am not saying they didn't do that....but the skeptic in me would say they had a vested interest in making their "stock tune" perform better than the PC tune...which made a customer out of the OP and made rival PC look bad... and believe me I am not a fan of PC.

Tom

jonmartin

Yea well the whole point was for them to see the gain over stock it wasn't to make Powerchip "look bad" notice OE tuning didn't come on the board to blast them. And since the other BONE stock E63 picked up the same gains a week later then that tells you that they did put it back to stock and not "inflate" the stock gains. Besides regardless of all that they still made much more power over the Powerchip software either way right?

way2evil

Obviously these two companies do not value each other very much. You should have brought the car to a completely different place with a dyno to see who was actually telling the truth.

jonmartin

How exactly would that work to prove anything different? OE did their thing and they made gains over stock over Powerchip and then similar gains on another car so how could they lie about anything?

racer m

The tune that Gintani/OE Tuning did for my E63 was free of charge (a wedding gift), so its hard to say no to that. The fact that they made nearly the same gains on Vic's E63 that was never flashed before clearly shows that there is nothing bogus about their tune.

Gintani/OE Tuning also flashed my X5M a while back, before any of this drama was going down (to my knowledge) and made a significant gain (50whp) over stock. I'm very happy with both tunes I have received from Gintani/OE Tuning.

way2evil

Powerchip tuned the car and said they gained 20hp but the second company said they actually lost 7hp. A third party dyno would have results similar to either Powerchip or to Gintani. Whoever's results were off would be the liar.

way2evil

I've heard alot of good things about OE tuning and not so good things about Powerchip. I really dont care either way what happpened here, but clearly something shady is going on seeing as the two are pointing fingers at each other. Looks like you are in the middle of it whether you want to be or not.

jonmartin

Well from what I understand Powerchip did their baseline run then took the car off the dyno drove it around the corner to take the ecu out and make changes at a shop and then drove it back and to the dyno and re dynoed later this would not make an accurate representation of the gains. Anyone familiar with how dynos work know this is a big no no when trying to verify tuning gains. The mere fact that they unstrapped the car can change the load on the dyno and change the numbers just by how tight the straps holding the car on the dyno are this doesn't mean it was done intentionally but it did happen and it DOES make a difference. Its next to impossible to get it strapped the same every time. When OE tuning did their tune all runs were done without moving the car off the dyno during the same day. So the strapping force was a constant does that make sense?

Even if he took the car to a third party dyno on separate days to try and verify results were talking about 6 months going by and the fact that the dyno would be in a different location and then weather, altitude , fan setup , different fuel mixtures and strapping force all come into play. IMO OE tuning did it the right way I'm sure others would agree.

Vic55

I agree 100% in regards to how the tests are done. You must do everything possible to mimmick the same conditions in doing a before and after set up. This is why its called a dyno tune- the car sits on the dyno and you get a baseline. Then nothing is changed but the ECU parameters and then its back to testing. Thats why I made sure my car never was moved or left the dyno during the the before and after testing. I also made sure they didnt change any of the roller weight specs or other inputs on the computer. I wanted the most valid results.

Peter_02AMG

I never like PC, I inquired about the tune for my E63 while back and this is what they replied with.

" In standard form, the Mercedes-Benz E63 produces 680 hp, however the addition of a PowerchipGold 93 will increase the power to 720 hp. In addition to the extra power, the torque is also increased. The E63 produces 336 lb.-ft standard, and this is increased to 356 lb.-ft. This means more pulling power especially up hills. "

I still have email they sent me. 680 hp huh??

racer m

must be the E63 AMG Black Series! LMFAO!!!

brad @ evosport

Matt,

Nice gains and welcome to the forum. We met when I was with Cort at Buttonwillow a while back if you don't recall.

Seems that you are happy with your tune which is great. I am sure that you are loving it.

However, just to set the record straight it is impossible for the file to be put back to stock by anyone other than the original tuner who has YOUR car's file or a dealer/shop with a STAR and access to mercedes-benz for the encryption.

Again, I am not debating any gains you have or challenging the tuner, but you should know that the "facts" you have are not really accurate.

Some might say "well, why does this matter" - it only does as it shows that the tuner "modified" the file. Only he knows what was really in the car.

As for power, there is no possibly way that ANY tuner will make 30 hp+ over ANY other tuner (well, at least for those that are experienced in this market). I don't care if it is MHP, Vath, RENNtech, Kleemann, OE, PC, etc - they are ultimately all very similar in ultimate power. Been in the business for a long time, and that is just the reality. Much like if you take three good motec tuners on a race car - they are all going to get pretty much to the same power (some may have better throttle response, more are under the curve, etc), but the max power is typically really close.

Just a perspective! And yes, we are a PC reseller so there is a bias, but that should not cloud the statements above.

I cannot comment on the issues of how you were treated or a refund. I don't think any of us can. Powerchip should respond to that direct. Most likely it is a situation of misunderstandings and miscommunication with some fault on both sides. Or maybe not! lol, I have no clue!

thanks
Brad

jonmartin

Well Brad what do you think took place? My buddy and I have all the runs on video and even if OE could not return the settings to stock which you assume, then where did the 30whp gains come from over the Powerchip tune? And where did near identical gains made on another bone stock E63 on another day come from? Let's all remember OE tuning didn't make this thread so where is the ill motive from OE tuning ?I doubt OE just made up their gains for no reason and we just heard from another OE tuning customer the testing procedure OE used which was not moving the car off the dyno but Powerchip did so what could OE have done to "Lie" about their gains exactly?

Benz-O-Rama

Is it possible that OE tuning had a stock E63 file because Vic's car was also tuned there? I'm sure they pulled his stock file before tuning his car. Is it not possible to put Vic's stock file on the OPs E63? That would lead me to the question of who's car was tuned first? The OP's or Vic's?

It's also possible that neither the OP's nor Vic's E63 was the first W212 E63 that they've tuned, and they already had a stock file.

Or maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about, which is absolutely possible.

MB_Forever

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread!!!!

So can someone please shed some light on how Vic's car dynoed at 370 rwhp after receiving the OE tune while this car dynoed at 409 rwhp after receiving the same tune? Were the two cars dynoed on the same day and under the same conditions?

jonmartin

Well seeing as the only people claiming that you cannot revert a car to stock settings are NOT software tuners lets just say for the sake of argument that there was no stock revision tune. If the the car came in with Powerchip's tune and only made 374-379whp right off the of bat and OE tuning came in and made their changes the same day without moving the car from the dyno machine and saw the 30whp gain then it wouldn't even matter would it because then Powerchip would have came in another 7whp negative under the OE tune right? So imo that argument is weak. And it still doesn't change the fact that the OP is living with a chipped ECU circuit board and bent ecu casing with missing screws. Now I'm sure Powerchip will chime and call me a "fanboy" at some point (as usual) but only a moron can't see past that especially when there are tons of stories all over the internet and this forum from unhappy Powerchip customers with similiar experiences so we'll see. I think the bottom line is OE tuning aren't the ones making the thread so to call them "liars" because an unhappy Powerchip customer came in and told his story is lame.

jonmartin

No they were about 2 weeks apart and I kinda touched on that earlier. How you strap a car down can also make a difference in the numbers. Also Vics car has 20" Wheels that can possibly change the way the dyno reads (rolling diameter). The important part is that the gain was almost the same on two different cars without removing the cars from the dyno during tuning changes. Any real tuner will tell you if you unstrap a car from a rolling dyno can change the final numbers and will make any numbers after that useless to compare to previous dyno results especially 2 weeks apart. If you read the the OP's dyno chart all the runs were done in 100degree weather vs Vics car which was likely cooler.

Powerchip

Hey matt and Jon,

I will reply with my 2 cents and leave the thread to be interpreted how the readers see fit. I don't plan on responding again as I'm going to cover every aspect of our transaction.

First of all Jon Martin, every time I've met you, you were the nicest and quietest guy at the meets, it's weird that you are so vocal online. When you were running sharewin's 335i and my car it was hard to get a reaction out of you even in a near death situation, but if someone whispers the word powerchip you go on the attack. You said earlier "Yea well the whole point was for them to see the gain over stock it wasn't to make Powerchip "look bad" notice OE tuning didn't come on the board to blast them." On another forum I heard your email address is jon@oetuning, if you have a company email address and come on here to bash powerchip does that not constitute oe tuning coming on the board to blast us? It's all making sense to me now...even though at one time I considered you a friend when theres dollar signs involved people change their stance quick.

Now for the claims made in this thread, I'll recount chronologically what took place.

I first got a call from one of our dealers asking if we can tune the new W212 E63 for a good friend of his, I replied yes and we scheduled a time to come over to his shop to tune the car. The first time I saw the car was at the dyno, myself and the dyno operator were tracing the wires to see where the ecu is located on the car, it's under the passenger wheel well if you were wondering.

When I first met Matt he told me he was expecting somewhere in the neighborhood of 20whp or it wouldn't be worth the price. I tried to manage his expectations as we weren't sure what our gains would be, I said the W212 has a little more power than previous generations so the gains might be modest. He protested and I told him if we don't make adequate power, then no harm no foul, we will return the car to stock and he wont have to pay. He agreed to the terms and I tuned the car.

I did not personally remove or install the ecu, the shop manager and personal friend of Matt's removed and installed the ecu and I doubt he would forget to install anything himself or if I had forgotten something, I'm sure he would've caught it, not only is he one of the most professional guys in the business, he was also a groomsman at your wedding so that part of the story I'm skeptical on. I'm sure any one of the groomsman at my wedding wouldn't let someone shaft me, especially if they are the ones referring. Furthermore, if there is damage to your car or something missing, generally you go back to the place that did it and ask them/give them the chance to remedy the situation, that was not done and when another entity is messing around with your car and its parts we cannot be held responsible after the fact, who knows what they've done in the mean time? The board was not damaged when the ecu left our posession, I can say that with absolute certainty.
Now half a year later when you don't even have our tune in your car for us to put you back to stock you want a refund...

Anyways, the dyno shops technician was busy at the time of completion of the job and I informed him that I can't wait around all day until he's ready to dyno the car, so I left with the intention of coming back when the dyno operator was ready. I got a phone call later that day from the dyno operator saying we made about 22whp and I said great, it didn't really matter that I wasn't there for it because the results on the first flash were perfect. The run conditions are available upon request and the dyno can be seen on Matt's other thread that praised our work back in March: https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...t-e63-amg.html


The dyno is a third party, not affiliated with PC in any way nor the shop that referred Matt to us other than the fact that the speed shop and dyno shop are close in proximity. I was not present for the baseline or the post tune dyno runs, I was handed an ecu, tuned it and handed it back. I'd be more skeptical of dyno results coming out of a shop with an agenda against their direct competitor/rival vs. an independent dyno, common sense. I've also seen the tricks that tuner uses to make the gains look...augmented. Taking a stock file and dumbing it down so the baseline is shamefully low or "heartbreaking" and the tune looks like a miracle!

Also, according to this thread that you posted: https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...t-buy-car.html

You are trying to get your car lemoned or bought back by the dealer because it doesn't do adequate enough burnouts. If you want to get rid of the car I'm sure you'd want to liquidate the extras you bought too, and obviously if you can get a product free why pay for it right? I understand why you are after a refund even though i don't agree with it in principle. If I bought a product and was offered a similar product for free later I'd think about how I could get my money back too.

I did receive a call from Matt and I found it difficult not to laugh at the situation, so 30 wheel horsepower over our tune that either means there was 50whp left on a car that makes ~520 horsepower from the factory...or the dyno operator who had no vested interest fudged the numbers, or the more likely scenario, a shop with an agenda did a tune for free and played with the tune/dyno to try to advance their smear campaign and get some free advertising at our expense (as usual). The ****'s were good at propaganda too lol. Feel free to call the dyno shop and inquire if you are interested in that man's integrity, the number is on the dyno sheet. He's a down to earth respectful guy that takes no BS named Mike and will be happy to answer your questions I'm sure.

The other thing that makes me laugh is the other car that they supposedly got a stock file from as a donor to Matt's car, Vic55's car, had a 30whp gain but his ending number is still almost 10whp less than the "baseline" for Matt's car on the very same dyno. And Matt's was dyno'd in hells heat! Even though Matts car was dyno'd on one of the hottest days of the year, it made more horsepower stock than the other oe tuned car did after a tune according to gintani and oe tuning: https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...3-gintani.html

Two stock brand new cars have over 40whp difference? Do you really expect anyone to believe that? I had to look at the dynos 100 times to make sure I was seeing this correctly, its ludicrous! 10whp certainly possible, but not likely, 20whp difference, I'd raise an eyebrow and want some justification, but a full 40whp difference on two of the same "stock" cars?? One car post OE/Gintani tune makes under 370whp, the other with a BS "not working tune" makes 9whp more baseline? then another 30whp on top of that? In hotter than hell weather? WOW if you believe that I'm sure you are going to cry when I type this next sentence. Santa Claus isn't real. The proof is right there infront of you, provided by the very same people that are out to ruin someone elses reputation. Congrats, the only thing this thread has proved is that one shop is very good at lying about results and cheating dyno graphs.

Matt, on shear principle I can't give you a refund, because I know the truth, but I will say this: If you are willing to go to a third party dyno, and dyno your OE/Gintani tune, then install our PC tune while the car is still strapped to the dyno and show me there is a 30+whp difference, not only will I give you your money back, I will pay you an equal amount in cash out of my own pocket, no strings attached. Does that sound fair? If you are confident you've been conned and are not conning me it shoould be a no brainer.

Also, thanks for giving our competitor our tune, I hope he makes a lot of money reselling our products


Yours Sincerely,

Matt @PC

zisbenz

WOW!
I was looking into purchasing the tune from Powerchip at the time I picked up my car, but decided against Powerchip tuning my car after I spoke to a person who answered the phone called Wayne. What a strange businessman.... It is interesting hearing that others had a negative Powerchp experience also. I guess others who have a Powerchip tuned W212 E63 will ask if thier car feels faster or tuned??
racer M, did you ever get a dynograph printout from Powerchip to support their claims as they said?

i_am_amused

awesome... dropping the ****-bomb.

NO TUNE FOR YOU!

Vic55

My car has nothing to do with the OP's car, I was dyno'd on a different day in different conditions with 1k miles- my files were never transferred to the other test car. My car was dyno'd stock, read, redyno'd with tune and I drove home to get beers.



see above and see my thread too- their dyno got a new software update and that made the numbers even lower. I have no issue coming in 30 hp less, my goal was to see what the gains were with a tune within 15 minutes of a stock dyno and I got it. The car was not moved off the dyno nor were the fans adjusted. My temps were less than 100 degrees but not much less.