Originally Posted by Powerchip

We dont see this as a "shootout" to see if Jeremy or Powerchip has more power.

We se it as a test to see if The tune Jeremy sells as his produces 50hp under controlled conditions.

We have already said Powerchip has never seen more than 30 hp from our tune.

We are not against showing that the dyno posted showing Powerchips e63 tune does not loose power over stock as Jeremy claims.

So I can confirm that Powerchip is happy to participate in a test of our software on the same day
Jeremy installs a tune.

I don't think the chances are very high that Jeremy will allow a video recording of him installing software at a dyno be made, due to potential legal and immigration issues he might face from the video.

But Powerchip is ready to have a fair test conducted.

I am not sure that providing free software after the test completes is appropriate, but I wouldn't rule it out if the general feeling of the thread was that it OK so long as it was disclosed publically.

It is not appropriate for Powerchip to contact Jeremy but I know that Vic is in regular contact with him, and suggest he contact Jeremy to make the arrangments.

Let's get this happening, if Jeremys tune produces 50whp!!!!!!!!!! then I will be the first to admit he has achieved something Renntech, Kleemann, Brabus and Powerchip don't claim to do and can't do.

Originally Posted by Powerchip

I think we can help with the issues here.

We will make this offer available to anyone in socal with a tuned file Jeremy has installed since he was told his " services were no longer required" at Powerchip on a current E63.

This is a 100% free offer, Powerchip will pay for all dyno testing.

1. E63 customer chooses a dynojet within an hours drive of LA/OC/SD
2. Four base runs are conducted with 15 minuite cooldowns, and Powerchip is not to touch the car in any way prior to the completion of the base runs. The base runs in this case will show the power of Jeremys claimed 50hp tune.
3. The car is returned to 100% stock without unstrapping the car or modifying any other variable
4. Four runs are conducted with 15 minuite cool downs
5. The dyno operator selects the highest stock run and the highest tuned run and the results are posted on mbworld by the owner of the car regardless of the outcome
6. The car is returned to the exact state it started, ie with the tune Jeremy sold the customer

We suggest that a video record is made and posted under the dyno graph, and that the test is open for forum members to attend, we are happy to have suggestions made that will ensure the test is as fair as possible.

If the car produces 50hp or more on a dynojet under these conditions, we have a true paradyme shift in the 63 tuning market, something no other tuner in the world has ever claimed to be able to achieve

Not Brabus, not Renntech, Kleemann, and certainly not Powerchip. The most Powerchip has ever gained on a Dynojet on a current E63 is about 30hp.

If the tune Jeremy installed produces about twice the power of Powerchips claim, then it shows that he has created something truly unique since he left Powerchip.

If the tune only gives 20-30hp then I will leave it for others to suggest what has occurred

What we are trying to determine here is the validity of a claim of 50hp power gain on a current e63 under controlled conditions.

Vic55 is very familiar with Powerchip, he trusted us enough to have our software installed on at least three or four cars. Vic is a powerful moderator here. Obviously, he got that software from Powerchip without any payment. I don't know how much (if anything) he paid Jeremy to install the file that is in his car, but it would be reasonable to assume he won't be providing a scan of his credit card receipt showing he paid the retail price on the day the software was installed

So I think it is reasonable for us to ask that Vic recuse himself from moderating this thread to ensure no conflict of interest arrises.

We can't wait to see the 50hp power gain under controlled conditions

Who would like the test to occur, and who would like to attend?

Again, Powerchip will pay for all dyno testing costs involved

Originally Posted by jonmartin

I like how POWERCHIP had to come butt into someone ones thread about their results. Must not have much else going on over there. Hard to sell useless tunes and all.

Anyway I seem to recall on several occasions that Powerchip claimed that it was impossible to return a car to stock settings without having the original file. So did you all learn a new trick? or are you just admitting that you were full of **** all along with that claim?

I'm sure Jeremy has no problem schooling you at a shootout. If you guys needed a lesson on how to tune you could have just called. I suggest you find your own stock car and do your stuff and then Jeremy will go ahead and tune after you and show the gains because we both know the real deal is you just would like to rip off his tune hence you want to find a car that already has a tune. Because lets face it whether or not the car makes 50whp over stock you really just need the tune to resell anyway otherwise you wouldn't care what anyone one claimed they could make

Originally Posted by Powerchip

Jon,

It is our intention to minimize as much as is possible, the perception that we "argue" with people on the Internet.

Many here may not know you in your capacity as "Jon@oetuning.com" and we do not seek to understand that relationship, other than to make it clear that you represent Jeremy.

Powerchip accepts your offer to participate in the test.

I suggest a coin is tossed to determine who installs the software first. The first party to read the stock ECU provides the other immediately with the binary reading and both confirm and note the standard checksum.

After the first party installs a performance file, they return the car back to stock to eliminate any possibility that the other party can read the others tuned file.

The second party reads the ECU after it has been returned to stock and checks and confirms the checksum, and determines if the SCU has been returned to 100% stock, byte for byte.

Given that the structure of the test has changed to include a test of both Powerchip and the tune Jeremy calls "his", the costs of the dyno testing will be split equally between Jeremy and Powerchip on the day.

There will need to be the usual requirements set to ensure that the test is fair, but these can be communicated between you and Powerchip.

It is a requirement that Mbworld members are welcome at the test, and that a video camera(s) are permitted to film at the event

How does the first week of December work for Jeremy?

Originally Posted by jonmartin

Well seeing as OE Tuning wasn't the one calling anyone out I personally think Powerchip should pay all cost but I'm sure Jeremy wont mind I'll call and ask him when he's available. Also both companies can read the stock file before any tuning is done. Also I forgot to ask where does OE tuning advertise a 50whp gain as the norm for their tune? Their site says 31hp and most people get about ~30whp

Originally Posted by Powerchip

Hi Jon,

Let's make this even fairer, let's get the original poster Racing Dad along and test HIS exact car to ensure that the 50hp can be replicated on the car Jeremy claims. This can be IN ADDITION to a forum members fresh car. Powerchip is happy to pay for 100% of the dyno testing of the car already "proven" on Jeremys in house dyno to produce a 50whp increase that Jeremy promotes on his web site

It's really easy to find the 50hp claim by Jeremy, its on the first page of the www.oetuning.com blog

www.oetuning.com/blog/?p=224

I am aware of your intentions, it's to suggest that that the original poster is making the 50hp claim, and not Jeremy. As you know, Jeremy has made the claim on his website and I simply want to verify that the claim can be replicated under controlled conditions.

Jon, people reading this thread are intelligent, they have already stated that 50hp is an amazing power gain.

I have already stated TWICE in this thread about Powerchip not being able to exceed 30hp.

After your confrontational statements about teaching powerchip how to tune and suggesting we want to simply read the car, are you now saying that Jeremy does NOT produce the 50hp he claims, and that it is about the same 20-30hp as Powerchip?

I am not sure of the logic, you taunt Powerchip and now try to back away from the claim on Jeremys website.

Are you 100% sure that Racing Dads car will produce 50hp that you say it produced on the in house dyno when tested away from Gintani. And I mean REALLY sure.

Are you 100% sure that a new car will replicate the 50hp claim.

And finally are you 100% sure that Jeremys claim the Powerchip's E63 program LOOSES power compared to a stock car as posted by Racer M in this thread. Powerchip will also offer to pay 100% of the dyno tests to test the propriety of Jeremys claimed back to back test on that car with Jeremy present to change his tune and return it to stock so we can reinstall our file.

Jon, can you also confirm that you are representing Jeremy with his permission and that he is aware of this proposed dyno testing day.

From a consumers point of view, there could be three opportunities for Jeremy to show his MAGIC on three different cars, with Powerchip paying the vast majority of the dyno testing costs.

We are REALLY looking forward to Jeremy making a 50hp gain on three cars with the world watching

Originally Posted by Racing Dad

with the torque converter the power loss should be noticeable because it's not directly connected.

Originally Posted by Jakpro1

What a trip. Even with no torque converter Mo? That bums me out for the new twin turbs.

Originally Posted by Roupin

How can an MCT with a clutch have more parasitic loss than a torque converter automatic? Not doubting your info, just finding the stated hard to comprehend.

Originally Posted by Racing Dad

i agree. that doesn't quite add up. with the torque converter the power loss should be noticeable because it's not directly connected. But with an MCT, there should be minimum lose because it's essentially a manual transmission.

Originally Posted by 220S

fwiw, I did see this on a Euro website:

"There is some level of slip in the MCT to damp any drive line shock moving away from a standstill. Regardless, the factory has dialed out most of the power loss consumed by a traditional torque converter."

Originally Posted by Jons95c36amg

Look at the c63 forum. Tuned only c63 ran 11.6@120

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Bro, I was the one who started the thread.... I was the one who was posting the LIVE updates for mbworld.org

Please note that the "tune only" statement on that C63 also includes:

- V3 Tune (a very strong custom tune)
- K&N Filters
- Drag Radials (a big factor)
- Ran at MIR (one of the best tracks ever).
- Not even sure if charcoals were in or out

The two stock E63s I was talking about ran 100% stock configuration down to the continental tires and stock filters. I'm not arguing which is faster with a tune. I'm saying that in 100% stock form, some healthy running E63s managed to run 11.9 to 12.1 @ 118 mph but in 100% stock form, not one single C63 has run 11s. Even with drag radials, I don't think a C63 has run 11s yet (not too sure though).

Originally Posted by Vic55

Thanks Mo for the clarification- or actually might I say the real way to post info.

Originally Posted by transferred

+1....jons95c36 wouldn't know a fact if it got mailed to him

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

I know exactly what you mean. I don't have enough technical knowledge to explain it Like you, I thought the MCT would have less drivetrain loss than conventional torque converter. However, I've seen it with my own eyes: we dynoed SL63, W212 E63 and W211 E63 on the same day and same dyno. The SL63 had only 2,000 miles, the W212 E63 had 7,000 miles, and the W211 E63 had 13,000 miles. These were the results:

SL63: 370 to 385 whp (we did 4 runs)
W212 E63: 388 to 398 whp (we did 4 runs)
W211 E63: 411 to 414 whp (only 3 runs)

Aside from the above, I've looked at SL63 and W212 E63 dyno sheets from Evosport and RENNtech and both confirmed the lower dyno numbers. We will have to wait until we get a bigger pool of dyno sheets to make a more accurate assessment, but for now, the preliminary data I've seen indicates that MCT vehicles suffer a little bit more hp loss to the wheels than the traditional 7g configuration.

Originally Posted by E55_GT3wheels

How many miles on the W211 tested E63s? I think we need to rereun when we get 15K+ miles on the newer cars. This is the real test. I am hoping we would not lose more power with the newer MCT. That is mind boggling. Something must be up.

Originally Posted by E55_GT3wheels

Also, trap times and 1/4 mile times don't tell the same story - they all state the newer car is just about the same as the W211's. Interesting data though. I want to see more with higher mileage W212s

Originally Posted by Vic55

And in regards to the cars you are comparing, we know the answer but weight is not everything... case in point my GTR with its close to 4000lbs will do a good job even in stock format versus your beloved C63 (Gearing, tranny, CoeD, other factors play a large role). The ability of the GTR to transfer the power to ground is amazing and better than any Benz IMHO.

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Bro, I was the one who started the thread.... I was the one who was posting the LIVE updates from MIR to mbworld members

Please note that the "tune only" statement on that C63 also includes:

- V3 Tune (a very strong custom tune)
- K&N Filters
- Drag Radials (a big factor)
- Ran at MIR (one of the best tracks ever).
- I think charcoal filters were out

The two stock E63s I was talking about ran 100% stock configuration down to the continental tires and stock filters. I'm not arguing which is faster with a tune. I am, however, saying that in 100% stock form, some healthy running E63s managed to run 11.9 to 12.1 @ 118 mph while not one single C63 has run 11s in 100% stock form. In fact, even with drag radials (and everything else stock), I don't think a C63 has run 11s yet.

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

I know exactly what you mean. I don't have enough technical knowledge to explain it Like you, I thought the MCT would have less drivetrain loss than conventional torque converter. However, I've seen it with my own eyes: we dynoed SL63, W212 E63 and W211 E63 on the same day and same dyno. The SL63 had only 2,000 miles, the W212 E63 had 7,000 miles, and the W211 E63 had 13,000 miles. These were the results:

SL63: 370 to 385 whp (we did 4 runs)
W212 E63: 388 to 398 whp (we did 4 runs)
W211 E63: 411 to 414 whp (only 3 runs)

Aside from the above, I've looked at SL63 and W212 E63 dyno sheets from Evosport and RENNtech and both confirmed the lower dyno numbers. We will have to wait until we get a bigger pool of dyno sheets to make a more accurate assessment, but for now, the preliminary data I've seen indicates that MCT vehicles suffer a little bit more hp loss to the wheels than the traditional 7g configuration.

Originally Posted by AlbertM

Very interesting result. Today I dynoed my car and the result is somewhat disappointing (I expected around 430-440). 405 peak HP on a dynojet with OEtuning tune on the car. Now unfortunately I don't have a baseline dyno, so I don't know what the difference is with and without the tune. Take it for what it is, 405HP on a dynojet (cool weather 63F). Interestingly, I have not seen a single dyno of E63 mW212 making anywhere near 405 stock or tuned? Anyone out there? All the dynos I have seen on the board or youtube show stock around 340-350 and close to 400 after the tune. Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by Jons95c36amg

Thats odd because when I ran Alberts w211 e63(charcoals delete)well broken in 25k+ miles vs my stock C63(charcoals not touched) I beat him by a car 40-120+.

Originally Posted by Jons95c36amg

Well can you explain why the w212 e63 is faster then the w211 e63 going by my runs with Alberts e63s? All stock.

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Again, key words in my post were "healthy running" E63s. For some reason, not all E63s and CLS63 are running good from factory. Not all are running strong. It took Juicee and I a couple of years to get our cars to run right and produce optimum power on the track. There are certain TSBs and optional fixes that do not show up on your regular vehicle maintenance. They are not required but do help a great deal when applied. This stuff usually requires a passionate mechanic who loves what he does in order to have the patience to dig deep into this stuff and make sure things are setup correctly. Of course, it does not hurt that he/she can speak German as well

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Again, key words in my post were "healthy running" E63s. For some reason, not all E63s and CLS63 are running good from factory. Not all are running strong. It took Juicee and I a couple of years to get our cars to run right and produce optimum power on the track. There are certain TSBs and optional fixes that do not show up on your regular vehicle maintenance. They are not required but do help a great deal when applied. This stuff usually requires a passionate mechanic who loves what he does in order to have the patience to dig deep into this stuff and make sure things are setup correctly. Of course, it does not hurt that he/she can speak German as well

Anyways, most of the W211 E63 I've seen run (here on the west coast) have run between 12.7 to 12.9 in the 1/4 mile with average DA of +1800 ft and temp between 78 F to 85 F. They were 100% bone stock. In comparison, I've seen only 2 stock W212 E63s run at Famoso: both ran 13.1 to 13.3 all day long. This was mainly due to the MCT preventing a decent burnout.



Too many possibilities that I don't know where to start. First of all, it could be that your car is just faster than his. Second, it could be that his car is faster but not running "healthy". Third, street runs are sometimes tricky because you can have a situation where someone would get the jump and then stay in the lead or someone starting in the wrong gear or rpm range, aerodynamic drag at very high speeds, different adaptations, etc....

If you want to test your car versus a "healthy" running stock W211 E63, contact oldgixxer and have him meet you at MIR on 11/22/2010 and run against him in his car. His car is capable of 11.9s to 12.1 @ 118 mph stock. Also, you should run with stock street tires first then run again with drag radials so you can see the difference. You have a strong car, but to make the comparison fair, you should run vs another strong car (not a weaker one).

Originally Posted by Jons95c36amg

I will be at Atco track rental on Nov 22 and see what just a tune will trap. Stock filters,charcoals intact. BTW so your saying both his e63s are weak ones? There is no way no how a stock w211 e63 will keep up with my tuned C63(factory freak)