275 Square on 2014+ E63S 4Matic?
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275 or 285 Square on 2014+ E63S 4Matic?
Hi guys. Needs to get a new family hauler and the E63S wagon should fit the bill nicely as an alternative to a boring SUV.
I am curious if anyone have tried either a 275 or 285 square setup on the E63S 4Matic?
The goal of course is to reduce understeer. Since the owner's manual suggests 255 square for the winter setup, running a square setup shouldn't cause a problem with the AWD system.
The question is if 275/30/19 or 285/30/19 will cause problem at the front in terms of clearance. Although wider by 20 and 30mm respectively, these tires are also shorter than stock 255 (25.6" and 25.7" respectively vs 26").
If anyone has any insight or experience, please share it with me and any help is greatly appreciated.
I am curious if anyone have tried either a 275 or 285 square setup on the E63S 4Matic?
The goal of course is to reduce understeer. Since the owner's manual suggests 255 square for the winter setup, running a square setup shouldn't cause a problem with the AWD system.
The question is if 275/30/19 or 285/30/19 will cause problem at the front in terms of clearance. Although wider by 20 and 30mm respectively, these tires are also shorter than stock 255 (25.6" and 25.7" respectively vs 26").
If anyone has any insight or experience, please share it with me and any help is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by SL1200MK4; Feb 4, 2015 at 11:12 AM.
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By the way, the reason why I am considering a 275 square setup over a 285 square setup is because:
1. 275/30/R19 is the widest tire that will fit on the stock front 19x9J rims.
2. Michelin Pilot Super Sport is available in 275/30/R19, probably THE best tires in its category. MPSS is not available in 285/30/R19.
3. 275 is more likely to work in terms of clearance than 285.
Come on guys, I cannot be the only one that wants to get rid of some understeer?
1. 275/30/R19 is the widest tire that will fit on the stock front 19x9J rims.
2. Michelin Pilot Super Sport is available in 275/30/R19, probably THE best tires in its category. MPSS is not available in 285/30/R19.
3. 275 is more likely to work in terms of clearance than 285.
Come on guys, I cannot be the only one that wants to get rid of some understeer?
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sl600
I assume the 4matic has a square setup already due to the 4 wheel drive. If this is the case then just going bigger will not change the balance but just give more grip.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
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Interesting, thanks for the feedback. That's good to know. Because everything is frozen and covered in snow up here, I didn't even test drive the car. Just decided that I want one anyways.
Most reviewers do comment on the understeer, i.e. Motor Rend, Randy Pobst, and Car and Driver. Most modern cars are setup to understeer at the limit.
Switching to a 285 square setup from stock 255/285 did wonders for the Nissan GTR. I hope to replicate that on the AMG.
Plus, if I am running a 255 square setup for the winter, running a square setup in the summer should give me a more consistent behavior from the car.
So, if anyone have any experience running 275 or 285 at the front, please share. Thanks.
Most reviewers do comment on the understeer, i.e. Motor Rend, Randy Pobst, and Car and Driver. Most modern cars are setup to understeer at the limit.
Switching to a 285 square setup from stock 255/285 did wonders for the Nissan GTR. I hope to replicate that on the AMG.
Plus, if I am running a 255 square setup for the winter, running a square setup in the summer should give me a more consistent behavior from the car.
So, if anyone have any experience running 275 or 285 at the front, please share. Thanks.
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The problem that I have is whether I can run 275 width tires up front without rubbing or other issues.
If I can run MPSS in a 275 square setup on stock rims, I think I will be a very very happy fellow. Plus I will be running either 245 or 255 square for winter, consistent handling behavior from the car will be nice.
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sl600
That is interesting i always was under the assumption that all 4 wheel drive cars had to run the same diameter wheel and tyre combo. So I assume they run 255/35r19 in the front and 285/30r19 in the back which gives close to the same overall diameter.
I would have thought running 275/30r19 square should not be a problem but may require a wheel with a different offset at the front to prevent rubbing.
I would have thought running 275/30r19 square should not be a problem but may require a wheel with a different offset at the front to prevent rubbing.
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That is interesting i always was under the assumption that all 4 wheel drive cars had to run the same diameter wheel and tyre combo. So I assume they run 255/35r19 in the front and 285/30r19 in the back which gives close to the same overall diameter.
I would have thought running 275/30r19 square should not be a problem but may require a wheel with a different offset at the front to prevent rubbing.
I would have thought running 275/30r19 square should not be a problem but may require a wheel with a different offset at the front to prevent rubbing.
But in practice these systems always allow some level of tolerance, at the minimum we can expect the front and rear tires to wear at different rate over time.
Since the owner's manual says 255 square setup is permitted. We know that the E63S 4Matic will be fine with an identical front/rear overall diameter. So, there's no problem there.
What worries me is whether the 275 wide tire will clear at the front. In theory it will push (275-255)/2 = 10mm closer towards the inside wheel well. But it will also be 6.75mm less in radius.
Keeping in mind that different brand/model of tires deviate slightly in section width and thread width once mounted. I really have no idea if 275 square will work. I do believe that a 275 square setup can make the handling more interesting, which is why I am so eager to try.
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OP are you comparing the behavior of the GTR to the E63 wagon?
What is working on the GTR might not be the same for that grocery getter.
As for understeer I'm surprised as well. 275 seems a bit wide for the front on OEM wheels. Maybe with customized offset it could work
What is working on the GTR might not be the same for that grocery getter.
As for understeer I'm surprised as well. 275 seems a bit wide for the front on OEM wheels. Maybe with customized offset it could work
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OP are you comparing the behavior of the GTR to the E63 wagon?
What is working on the GTR might not be the same for that grocery getter.
As for understeer I'm surprised as well. 275 seems a bit wide for the front on OEM wheels. Maybe with customized offset it could work
What is working on the GTR might not be the same for that grocery getter.
As for understeer I'm surprised as well. 275 seems a bit wide for the front on OEM wheels. Maybe with customized offset it could work
I am not comparing the E63 to the GTR, they serve a different purpose. Though incidentally AMG actually bought a GTR to play with and Tobias Moers actually commented that the GTR is THE benchmark for AWD powertrain in an Motor Trend interview.
Almost all production car are setup to understeer at the limit. Running a square setup will reduce the amount of understeer at the limit. Before anyone say that I am crazy or that I am gonna kill myself. Just remember that people already run square setups for winter tires and they are doing just fine.
p.s. As mentioned previously, another bonus is that Michelin Pilot Super Sports is available in the 275 size. Very good tires.
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'14 E63S, '13 G550, '06 E320 cdi, and a bunch of other stuff.
Classic case of a solution in search of a problem.
You have dozens of E63S owners who have read this thread. Dozens. You see anyone complaining about understeer?
The only (only!) published remarks of understeer in this platform concern 10/10ths laps on a circuit. Many of us have tracked this car. Turn-in is good. If you bring it to the ragged edge I'm certain it will push a bit. I didn't push it to that point and experienced good, neutral handling.
The AWD W212 is not anything like the Nissan. There is no torque vectoring (other than locking from the LSD on S), heck the FF/RR torque split is fixed.
This is simple car to drive.
YMMV
You have dozens of E63S owners who have read this thread. Dozens. You see anyone complaining about understeer?
The only (only!) published remarks of understeer in this platform concern 10/10ths laps on a circuit. Many of us have tracked this car. Turn-in is good. If you bring it to the ragged edge I'm certain it will push a bit. I didn't push it to that point and experienced good, neutral handling.
The AWD W212 is not anything like the Nissan. There is no torque vectoring (other than locking from the LSD on S), heck the FF/RR torque split is fixed.
This is simple car to drive.
YMMV
Last edited by ace10; Feb 7, 2015 at 09:32 PM.
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Classic case of a solution in search of a problem.
You have dozens of E63S owners who have read this thread. Dozens. You see anyone complaining about understeer?
The only (only!) published remarks of understeer in this platform concern 10/10ths laps on a circuit. Many of us have tracked this car. Turn-in is good. If you bring it to the ragged edge I'm certain it will push a bit. I didn't push it to that point and experienced good, neutral handling.
The AWD W212 is not anything like the Nissan. There is no torque vectoring (other than locking from the LSD on S), heck the FF/RR torque split is fixed.
This is simple car to drive.
YMMV
You have dozens of E63S owners who have read this thread. Dozens. You see anyone complaining about understeer?
The only (only!) published remarks of understeer in this platform concern 10/10ths laps on a circuit. Many of us have tracked this car. Turn-in is good. If you bring it to the ragged edge I'm certain it will push a bit. I didn't push it to that point and experienced good, neutral handling.
The AWD W212 is not anything like the Nissan. There is no torque vectoring (other than locking from the LSD on S), heck the FF/RR torque split is fixed.
This is simple car to drive.
YMMV
At the end of the day different owners will end up enjoy the same car a little differently. Most will probably leave it stock, some will go for a tune. Crazy few will go for a turbo upgrade and then some to chase that 9 second pass.
I usually start with tires and if I can end up with a more neutral handling characteristics, all the better.
Having more front end grip should allow the E63 to carry more speed into a corner and is probably worth a second or two around a circuit. Not that the E63 will be my weapon of choice for the track, but if I am gonna chance the tires anyways. Why not go for a faster setup.
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'12 E63 Wagon
Of note, on the track at 10/10ths, the 2wd W212 does beat exceptionally hard on the front tires. In 80 deg weather I was overheating the stock Continental tires after 3-4 hard laps. Also, the front brakes are good, but after 3-4 laps they begin to get slightly more squishy. When the front tires get tired, my experience is that the car seems to understeer, which actually makes the tire temperature even worse.
It's possible that a better driver could mitigate the issue, but I came out of the experience with a couple thoughts...
- The capabilities of the car and its weight add up to a serious job for the front end. It's up for 9/10ths, but 10 or 11/10ths is not a happy place for the car. Consumables are NOT cheap, so Im not sure it would ever be a good track weapon.
- Compared to other cars, it is not that much fun on a smaller track. Once it starts getting hot and slimy, its really apparent that its 4500+ lbs. Drive something else if you have it. The car is the polar opposite to the Z06 or a GTR, which were designed (to some degree) to be track weapons.
It's possible that a better driver could mitigate the issue, but I came out of the experience with a couple thoughts...
- The capabilities of the car and its weight add up to a serious job for the front end. It's up for 9/10ths, but 10 or 11/10ths is not a happy place for the car. Consumables are NOT cheap, so Im not sure it would ever be a good track weapon.
- Compared to other cars, it is not that much fun on a smaller track. Once it starts getting hot and slimy, its really apparent that its 4500+ lbs. Drive something else if you have it. The car is the polar opposite to the Z06 or a GTR, which were designed (to some degree) to be track weapons.
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2018 E63 S (white wagon), 2016 Viper ACR Extreme, 2005 Porsche GT3 Cup race car,2020 GLE
Most street cars today are designed for under-steer .(safer) A good track alignment with some decent front negative camber will make a world of difference. Problem is there is a fine line on enough neg camber for the track and too much for the street.
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Thanks for the feedback. I am still surprised that no have tried this yet. Someone did tried 275 square on the W211 with supposedly good results.
Since this is a street car, I don't think I will play with the alignments. The car will probably never be driven at 10/10th.
Sure, it doesn't need more grip at the front just like it doesn't really need that extra 100hp from a tune. But if it can be done, the car can be more enjoyable even if it's just placebo.
Since this is a street car, I don't think I will play with the alignments. The car will probably never be driven at 10/10th.
Sure, it doesn't need more grip at the front just like it doesn't really need that extra 100hp from a tune. But if it can be done, the car can be more enjoyable even if it's just placebo.
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2014 E63 S
Go the other way and up a size to 295s in the rear. PSS is available in that size.
I ran that setup last summer and never had traction issues. I am running the staggered OEM sizes this winter and the car has been very good.
I ran that setup last summer and never had traction issues. I am running the staggered OEM sizes this winter and the car has been very good.
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'03 G500, '13 G63, '17 GLS63,
Thanks for the feedback. I am still surprised that no have tried this yet. Someone did tried 275 square on the W211 with supposedly good results.
Since this is a street car, I don't think I will play with the alignments. The car will probably never be driven at 10/10th.
Sure, it doesn't need more grip at the front just like it doesn't really need that extra 100hp from a tune. But if it can be done, the car can be more enjoyable even if it's just placebo.
Since this is a street car, I don't think I will play with the alignments. The car will probably never be driven at 10/10th.
Sure, it doesn't need more grip at the front just like it doesn't really need that extra 100hp from a tune. But if it can be done, the car can be more enjoyable even if it's just placebo.
You won't drive at 10/10ths which is the point where you'd perceive the difference.
You even admit to doing it for placebo effect.
You're going through way to much trouble to fool yourself.
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Like it's been said before, most other owners don't perceive understeer in spirited driving, especially in a degree that would justify a wider tire in front.
You won't drive at 10/10ths which is the point where you'd perceive the difference.
You even admit to doing it for placebo effect.
You're going through way to much trouble to fool yourself.
You won't drive at 10/10ths which is the point where you'd perceive the difference.
You even admit to doing it for placebo effect.
You're going through way to much trouble to fool yourself.
I do find it particularly interesting that somehow getting a tune and voiding warranty seems to be an awesome idea, but my goal of trying to improve the handling is being ridiculed.
Yes, it might never make a meaningful difference on the street since I don't drive like a maniac and endanger the public with every opportunity I get. But the same argument can be said about a tune. Yes, you get more power, but how often do you really need it or get to use it?
The owners that reported no understeer are inconsistent with many reviews that do state understeer at the limit. Perhaps they didn't push the car as hard as the journalist whom doesn't have to pay for the tires, brakes, and whatever that brakes?
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'14 E63S, '13 G550, '06 E320 cdi, and a bunch of other stuff.
Hmmmm....
Have you found a car to drive yet?
Car mags are pushing the car to the limit. The dynamics of any chassis change as one pushes further and further to the limit. My track car drive poorly on the street. Or when giving students rides on the track at less than 10/10ths. Yet it feels predictable and comfortable when I push it to the edge and beyond.
What feels good, safe and comfortable on the street usually doesn't work on the track when driven in anger.
Read the Lightning Lap at VIR from this year. The meatfisted editors managed to destroy a wheel when hammering the car hard over the curbs. This happened because there's basically zero clearance between the tire/wheel and the front strut. And that's with the stock tire.
Have you found a car to drive yet?
Car mags are pushing the car to the limit. The dynamics of any chassis change as one pushes further and further to the limit. My track car drive poorly on the street. Or when giving students rides on the track at less than 10/10ths. Yet it feels predictable and comfortable when I push it to the edge and beyond.
What feels good, safe and comfortable on the street usually doesn't work on the track when driven in anger.
Read the Lightning Lap at VIR from this year. The meatfisted editors managed to destroy a wheel when hammering the car hard over the curbs. This happened because there's basically zero clearance between the tire/wheel and the front strut. And that's with the stock tire.
Last edited by ace10; Feb 10, 2015 at 07:58 PM.
