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sick. maybe I should try this on the 4.7... It makes sense. I think if you did those things, you would get that hp. Is 23psi is a lot though isn't it, shouldn't they be getting more power with that boost?
At what point do we worry about our connecting rods? I'm sure limiting torque at lower rpm helps but when you consider one slightly bent rod would be a very costly repair, what level of tune would be considered "safe" with these cars?
At what point do we worry about our connecting rods? I'm sure limiting torque at lower rpm helps but when you consider one slightly bent rod would be a very costly repair, what level of tune would be considered "safe" with these cars?
"The W.4 Turbochargers are the most capable production turbochargers available for the M157 engine. When all supporting upgrades are purchased, (supporting upgrades: M157 ASV/Water-Methanol Injection System Weistec True Downpipes and ECU tuning) the W.4 Turbocharger System for the M157 is capable of producing 1000+ crank horsepower on 91 octane pump gas. What’s equally impressive is that these numbers are achieved at only 20psi, and 20 psi is only the beginning.
Control = Reliability
While the M157 engine is a very robust engine in factory form, a couple of weak links have been found at extreme power levels. The most common is a bent connecting rod. If the engine is producing a sustained 1000 lb-ft of torque or more, all it takes is one knock event to bend a rod. This was taken into consideration with the ECU tuning for the W.4 Power Package as they can make far more power and torque than a stock M157 engine can handle. With our optional ECU Tune for the W.4 package, boost is controlled and tapered up to the peak of 20psi as RPM’s increase. This creates a broad torque curve that remains under 800 lb-ft (at the wheels) while allowing power to continually increase towards redline, minimizing stress on the rods as well as the rest of the drivetrain. With a fully built M157 and other supporting upgrades, expect to see significantly higher power numbers as the Turbochargers can flow enough air volume for 1400+ crank horsepower! " https://www.weistec.com/w-4-turbo-upgrade-m157.html
Some quick thoughts:
Weistec rates the stage 3 tunes on the 157 engine higher than the later 4.0L biturbo twinscrolls.
I think the theoretical limit 1500hp. Forza I believe says 1515hp or something close.
I believe madness motorsports took apart the 4.7 and did big turbos, they said the connecting rods in the 4.7 are also forged, and may have similar limits, He pushed to 760awhp maybe a bit more. If my math is correct getting to 1000hp is possible and may be safe in the 4.7 with the highest at like 1100-1200hp. I think it gets harder after 600awhp
I've been told by some people that 800-900hp is safe with no mods to engine internals or tranny. I just heard it but I believe it.
Last edited by cls5504matic; Oct 10, 2020 at 11:29 AM.
The most common is a bent connecting rod. If the engine is producing a sustained 1000 lb-ft of torque or more, all it takes is one knock event to bend a rod.
Yep!
So it seems they ramp up torque as I had mentioned would make sense. I think it would be much safer to run E85 in this case which would give you a much larger safety margin in regards to knock. I can not see feeling comfortable with a pump gas tune. Oh the joy of modding cars, it never ends.
So it seems they ramp up torque as I had mentioned would make sense. I think it would be much safer to run E85 in this case which would give you a much larger safety margin in regards to knock. I can not see feeling comfortable with a pump gas tune. Oh the joy of modding cars, it never ends.
I don't think you can or should do this without methanol injection on pump gas.
Can you talk to me about E85/E30? I know I've seen some dynos with it on FB. It looks like it gets you close to stage 3 power. Larger injectors, bigger fuel pumps, and a different tune?
Can you talk to me about E85/E30? I know I've seen some dynos with it on FB. It looks like it gets you close to stage 3 power. Larger injectors, bigger fuel pumps, and a different tune?
Ethanol requires more volume to produce the same amount of energy as gas which means you need more volume in your fuel system at a certain point. You can run more timing with E which translates into more power up to a certain point.
If I ran a high level of tune (Hybrids) I would run ethanol as a safety margin and would pick up power as well. I would keep a safety margin in the timing in the case of high IATs etc. I do not like the idea of meth on a daily driven car personally.
The issue with E30 is you need to be sure what you have in the tank which usually requires a sensor. I run a sensor on my GTI which tells me the ethanol content in the tank. With E85 (E70-85) you are usually good to just fill the tank as the tune likely needs maybe E60 at most (platform variables) and the rest is pad.
Either way I do not see myself modding my E63 this way. I would much rather on a different platform.
Ethanol requires more volume to produce the same amount of energy as gas which means you need more volume in your fuel system at a certain point. You can run more timing with E which translates into more power up to a certain point.
If I ran a high level of tune (Hybrids) I would run ethanol as a safety margin and would pick up power as well. I would keep a safety margin in the timing in the case of high IATs etc. I do not like the idea of meth on a daily driven car personally.
The issue with E30 is you need to be sure what you have in the tank which usually requires a sensor. I run a sensor on my GTI which tells me the ethanol content in the tank. With E85 (E70-85) you are usually good to just fill the tank as the tune likely needs maybe E60 at most (platform variables) and the rest is pad.
Either way I do not see myself modding my E63 this way. I would much rather on a different platform.
At what point do we worry about our connecting rods? I'm sure limiting torque at lower rpm helps but when you consider one slightly bent rod would be a very costly repair, what level of tune would be considered "safe" with these cars?
"Safe" --- as in, not going to throw a rod "safe?" -- The answer, don't tune your car and have a warranty. Plenty of examples of bent rods on tune only cars here. I'm not saying "hey, if you tune your car it will blow up" (inserted that little caveat because I know some will get upset over that) -- but the second you tune these cars, especially if you get a little aggressive, you're treading deeper into risky waters. As for the relatively new-ish mods coming (E30, TCU/ECU/other tunes, turbos) and you're seeing cars putting down 800/900 on rollers routinely... On those cars, something is going to break. 5k miles, 10k miles, 25k miles... It's going to let go eventually. I would want the weak spot to be the tranny so I'm replacing a tranny and not a motor but I digress...
Now, a stock car can throw a rod. Mechanical things fail blah blah blah same old story you seemingly know and understand the game.
But the game on this platform can cost you an easy $30k (used motor replacement) in a matter of seconds if something lets go. Ha, pretty sure a dealer just quoted someone here $96k for the repair bill on a blown motor. Yes, you read that correctly.
Bottom line -- with new tuning capabilities -- these cars have essentially overnight become VERY competitive in terms of being the "best" euro super sedan monsters. But if you're going to do it just understand you are putting yourself at risk of having a very good looking 4800lb paperweight. Now if you want to quantify that risk you can't, and if someone does don't really listen because it's impossible to tell. Just have a real conversation with yourself if you can handle the stress that comes after blowing up a car like this and if you can then go for it. These cars are becoming very affordable and can easily trap a buyer into a bad spot if they aren't careful.
Now, would I rock a kit like this? Absolutely. I have another DD and wouldn't have an issue tossing a blown car into a garage for a while. But if its your (or was my) DD not a chance.
"Safe" --- as in, not going to throw a rod "safe?" -- The answer, don't tune your car and have a warranty.
Meaning a level where most of the time you are good to go. Example would be my GTI, I could run that car at double the factory HP levels for 100k+ miles with no issues. I now have three times the factory level on the stock bock and it is happy.
Take a three valve Ford for example, you look at that engine wrong and it will blow.
Every platform will take a certain level of tune that is reasonably safe. The question is what is that level here or are we still finding out?
Meaning a level where most of the time you are good to go. Example would be my GTI, I could run that car at double the factory HP levels for 100k+ miles with no issues. I now have three times the factory level on the stock bock and it is happy.
Take a three valve Ford for example, you look at that engine wrong and it will blow.
Every platform will take a certain level of tune that is reasonably safe. The question is what is that level here or are we still finding out?
3x factory power on a GTI isn't the same as 3x power on an E63. Sort of apples and oranges here and I just wouldn't get in the habit of comparing cross brand or even cross platform in the same brand. I totally understand where you are coming from there though and the logic behind it. There really isn't a definitive answer (nor will there ever be) that xxx whp and xxx wtq are the magic numbers where your tranny will blow or your motor will send a rod into next year. Too many variables at play here from quality of aftermarket tune / parts all the way back to quality of build from the beginning as these are hand built to a degree.
We can play the what if game all day long here. The bottom line is there are documented cases of people bending rods and scoring cylinder walls beyond repair on tunes alone here. And then there are people running a lot more power than those guys (like triple digits more hp/tq) and are problem free. It's a roll of the dice. Again, the only question that should matter (in my opinion) is if you can handle the stress and repair bill of replacing a transmission or a motor on this car. If you cant, leave it alone. Maybe you have a perfectly built factory freak that could handle anything you threw at it. Maybe you don't. What I do know is that an entire GTI engine costs about what each cylinder in this car does.
3x factory power on a GTI isn't the same as 3x power on an E63. Sort of apples and oranges here and I just wouldn't get in the habit of comparing cross brand or even cross platform in the same brand. I totally understand where you are coming from there though and the logic behind it. There really isn't a definitive answer (nor will there ever be) that xxx whp and xxx wtq are the magic numbers where your tranny will blow or your motor will send a rod into next year. Too many variables at play here from quality of aftermarket tune / parts all the way back to quality of build from the beginning as these are hand built to a degree.
We can play the what if game all day long here. The bottom line is there are documented cases of people bending rods and scoring cylinder walls beyond repair on tunes alone here. And then there are people running a lot more power than those guys (like triple digits more hp/tq) and are problem free. It's a roll of the dice. Again, the only question that should matter (in my opinion) is if you can handle the stress and repair bill of replacing a transmission or a motor on this car. If you cant, leave it alone. Maybe you have a perfectly built factory freak that could handle anything you threw at it. Maybe you don't. What I do know is that an entire GTI engine costs about what each cylinder in this car does.
Also when people aren't tuned as well. However infrequent reports. I'm sure you could have a bad valve seal out of the gate.
Check out RR.net or jaguar forums some time, the JLR 5.0 SC blows up if you look at it wrong completely stock. I wouldn't tune one of those. I would lose sleep owning them stock, literally... I think the observation the engines may be different is not invalid.
Last edited by cls5504matic; Oct 10, 2020 at 04:54 PM.
It may be 8k for the kit but by the time you build your engine and replace your transmission you're going to be a lot closer to 40k.
i think you need to do that >900-1000hp. Rods + boost should get u up to 1400.
isnt trans rebuild with uprated parts like 6K if you hire it out and like 3k for parts?
let’s say its 40k with all weistec renntech top of the line on a 40k car. U just built 1/2 the brabus rocket, 10-20k on the interior and you have the equivalent of a $300k car imho.
Last edited by cls5504matic; Oct 10, 2020 at 05:13 PM.
i think you need to do that >900-1000hp. Rods + boost should get u up to 1400.
isnt trans rebuild with uprated parts like 6K if you hire it out and like 3k for parts?
let’s say its 40k with all weistec renntech top of the line on a 40k car. U just built 1/2 the brabus rocket, 10-20k on the interior and you have the equivalent of a $300k car imho.
Yep - you can get the transmission built to handle the power for about 6K.
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