baldmike73

i had carbon buildup on my e63 and after it was diagnosed my indie shop drove it around in manual mode at higher rpms for about 20 mins and said you need to really wind/heat up these engines to clean them out. He suggest 20 mins in the 4K range and a few good on ramp merges at WOT don't hurt it either -

cold bud3

from my understanding, it will clean up the top of pistons and turbos. But I have great news, I have a before picture of top of cylinder #3 picture taken from the injector hole.

QuadTurboPrius

I call BS ...If this were true then there would not be a cottage industry of walnut blasters, intake adapters, etc... This is a chemical management problem inherent to DI engines unrelated to how you use your engine. No amount of WOT will address the gunk on the valves in the various samples above or, really, and DI engine without port cleaning injectors. Just watch the 20% recovery of the VW engine in the video above. He was WOT until the walnut blasting and nothing helped.

Maybe you just have/had an old, non-DI E63 -- What year was the car and how many miles were on it when you got this advice?

kevm14

WOT might actually make the problem worse because of significantly increased crankcase gases being ingested. Everyone here says their oil consumption goes up when driving hard. Where do you think the oil is going? Yes some goes directly past the piston rings and out the exhaust valve but PCV oil mist is reburned, which means it goes past the intake valves.

That said any combustion chamber deposits could be cured (or prevented) using the Italian tune-up method. Like piston deposits. I am concerned SPECIFICALLY about intake valve deposits. They kill power and efficiency, and also apparently trash the valve guides when the gunk builds up enough.

Yakatak

I had a JCW Mini that I had to walnut blast twice during my ownership. Very easy to do on that engine. Of course I tried all of the chemical methods first (Not the Carbon Tek) and none of them even remotely worked. I've seen anecdotal reports that water injection will keep DI valves clean, but have never seen any hard evidence to confirm. I once owned a Saab 99 Turbo, and had installed water injection to control pinging brought on by increased boost. This engine used Bosch CIS injection so not DI, but...when the head was removed (at 56K miles) to repair a blown head gasket, the valves and the top of the pistons looked new.

bentz69

Ive been running e40-e50 daily for the past 33000 miles. Car had 15000 miles when it was tuned for e50. Wonder what what the valves look like at this point

Yakatak

Since the back of your valves never see any of that E-fuel, I suspect they look like most other 48K valves in a E63. Unfortunately.

billvp218

any update?

NH_E63

There are a few folks on here that have catch can setups (dual Radiums) on the M157 (I've got a 2015 E63 S), would continue to poke/ask them to share their setups. I've started a bit of digging into this and I think, while we do have the DI issue, the MB engineers developed a better Air-Oil separator system than other manufactures.

It's in the PDF of the M157 motor intro thingy (LOL) on page 12

kevm14

What reference is that from? I'm glad you posted it. There was a breather thread and I remember thinking it did seem like an evolution of the M273 centrifugal system. Of course boost makes everything way more complicated, requiring check valves and such. My M273 oil consumption is near zero over 5k which is a HUUUUGE departure from my E55 w/ M113k. Also, so far, my M157 seems not to be a major burner though I will need to observe over the entire 5k interval to have all the data.

The point I am making there is if the oil consumption is low, then the breather situation is satisfactory by definition. If oil consumption is low, the back if the intake valves have a better shot at not getting totally crapped up (but they still absolutely will given enough time).

billvp218

here's the PDF

Carbontek

I would like to address the sceptics, if I may.
The HHO gas removes carbon with simple chemistry. We take Potassium Hydroxide and electrolyze it into HHO gas. Think broken water. We then introduce this gas into the intake stream where it is combined with the incoming air/fuel mixture. The heat of combustion will assist the Hydrogen to bond with deposited carbon (Re-hydration). This turns the deposited Carbon into a hydrocarbon, and it is burned as fuel. This process works on any fuel burning engine.

This is supposed to be a regular maintenance service, not a "miracle in a can". If performed regularly, the carbon buildup is negligible. We can affect carbon buildup anywhere that the heat of combustion is available. It takes energy to break the water, and energy to create the hydrocarbons.

We have had tremendous results for many customers. Curing cold start shaking, shutting off check engine lights related to misfire codes, improving fuel economy and bringing back horsepower. The first thing our customers notice is the engine runs quieter. For some customers the benefits are less obvious. Some see a tiny MPG increase. Some say the car runs no different. It is impossible for us to predict the exact impact of our service, simply because we don't know the vehicle's condition going in.

I have found that we do not completely remove all carbon. The HHO gas seems capable of breaking the bonds from carbon atom to carbon atom. It is less successful breaking the bond from metal to carbon atom. So, a skim may remain after the service.

I will be happy to answer any questions you folks may have.

Carbontek

My son and I serviced 2 cars here. One the E63S with mods, the other the C300 stock. Both cars had an improvement in idle sound after the first 1/2 hour. The piston picture posted by Cold Bud 3 shows an absolutely knackered piston top! Oil use and over fueling can cause what we see here. I fully expect to see a lot of carbon remaining, but I am willing to bet that it runs better overall.

The point I would like to make is that if this service is performed early enough, these coated valves and pistons would never occur. The DI engines are the worst, but PI engines suffer as well.

Once again, I will entertain questions.

QuadTurboPrius

The chemistry might be sound. The quantity and effect on the bubble-gum-sized blobs on the intake valves might simply overwhelm the quantity of chemical reactions needed to have any appreciable effect,

Sure. Define "regular." Every month? as previously noted, I suspect that the time when someone thinks about doing this, they have so much carbon goo on their valve stems that a little vapor in the intake isn't going to make any difference at all. So - pics or it didn't happen. There's no shortage of DI engines and carbon buildup out there. If you're so confident, perform a pre-post test, dyno and strip-down.
Classic salesmanship here:
With DI engines full of carbon goo? I suspect old port engines behind this statement
How much by percent, on average?
Again - Care to put numbers on that? Any at all?
Absolutely false. It is impossible to stay in business for you to make measurable claims, maybe, but not to quantify the results. Specify the depth of carbon on the valves pre and post service. Show Pictures. Done.

No doubt. 99% remaining carbon still makes this claim "true."

Again, your chemistry is probably sound... but there is an absolutely damning lack of easily-obtainable photographic evidence that this does anything significant on DI engine carbon buildup

Until then... snake oil.

cold bud3

Alright, I'm not ready yet to address the E63S carbon cleaning effects yet, I can't tell and I haven't taken the after cleaning top piston #3 picture yet.

I'm delaying my report based on the following.
1. During the service, I had a small coolant leak that got aggravated.
2. Two days later I got my downpipe exhaust installed and replaced the leaky hose.
3 . The 3rd day my front left axle started making crunchy noises and can't step on it really.
4. Got appt for resonator delete and still debating on H-pipe vs X-pipe ( any input would be greatly appreciated)
5. I'm waiting for the split colling kit from VRP and thinking of pulling out the intake to visually check on the intake valves and take pics.
6 . Less than 100 miles driven since carbon cleaning service was completed.

A preliminary observation: I feel like this service works better on naturally aspirated cars and I say that because of my son's response.
Judging just based only on the c300, vehicle has 135k miles and this was the first time getting such a service. ( X-pipe is the only mod on this vehicle )
I just hung up the phone with my son and he claims that it was worth it, he claims improved performance, throttle response and definitely fuel economy and also a significant decrease in engine vibration especially noted while waiting for green light.

BTW, this is a common service completed in Europe, however only works on DRY deposited carbon buildup. It has no improvement for any wet(oil) portions on intake/exhaust/valves etc.
My brother in law drives and services W124's in Finland, (w124 crackhead) and he advised me to complete this service as well.
I spoke with him regarding the c300's response to cleaning and he's not surprised, however for my E63 he recommended a different cleaning process based on a liquid introduced in the engine that will address the wet and dry portion of the buildup. The specific fluid and delivery kit is not available in USA. There's a similar product from https://www.bgprod.com/ also promoted by the car wizard on YouTube but not sure if it's safe for MB vehicles, I'm still doing research, looking to buy the Euro kit and liquid.

I.T. Guy

+1 I've asked around and keep hearing good things about BG from people I trust in the automotive business
https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasol...amber-cleaner/

M157 Specific:
https://www.bgprod.com/reference/mer...8-gdi-engines/

Although they do say removal and walnut blasting is the best, mostly BMW's. Not sure why Mercedes isn't in the walnut blasting crowd more - harder to remove heads or buildup is not as bad as BMW's?

QuadTurboPrius

Yep, I have no doubt that the Carbontek service has its place, and has some effect in cleaning small amounts of buildup all over the intake and exhaust tracks.

But - this thread was about the need/method to clean up the goo seen in the earlier posts on this thread. I've seen nothing that indicates that the Carbontek service can address this.

cold bud3

I did notice that, however the last line of step 11 doesn't sit well with me, that's why I'd prefer the original MB fluid ( thinking that it's not as dangerous )

Carbontek

QuadTurboPrius,
I will respond line by line.

The chemistry might be sound. The quantity and effect on the bubble-gum-sized blobs on the intake valves might simply overwhelm the quantity of chemical reactions needed to have any appreciable effect,
Agreed. This is preventative maintenance, not a repair. The walnut shell service may be the only solution for cars that are too far gone.

Sure. Define "regular." Every month? as previously noted, I suspect that the time when someone thinks about doing this, they have so much carbon goo on their valve stems that a little vapor in the intake isn't going to make any difference at all. So - pics or it didn't happen. There's no shortage of DI engines and carbon buildup out there. If you're so confident, perform a pre-post test, dyno and strip-down.
I think I would define "Regular" as every 20k-30k miles. If we take the, say $3K service many are doing after 100k miles, and divide it out by 30k, we get 3 services over 100k (roughly) at $200/service we are still ahead of the game. We have tried to get shops to do a before and after tear down. They were too busy.

Classic salesmanship here:
Well, yes and no. I AM a salesman, but I don't sell anything I don't believe in. Period.

With DI engines full of carbon goo? I suspect old port engines behind this statement
Actually, the best results have been with Hyundai/Kia and VW DI engines.

How much by percent, on average?Again - Care to put numbers on that? Any at all?
Essentially the same question. Most see 5% increase in MPG. some as high as 12%. My own vehicle (2019 Ram 1500) only sees about 4-5% after servicing at 25K intervals. Can't truly measure HP accurately unless performed on the same day. Tried to get a Tuning shop to do this with us, but they wouldn't cooperate.

Absolutely false. It is impossible to stay in business for you to make measurable claims, maybe, but not to quantify the results. Specify the depth of carbon on the valves pre and post service. Show Pictures. Done
Please read my statement more carefully. We cannot predict the effect on each vehicle because we do not perform a complete teardown, inspection, service, and teardown during our come-to-you $200 service. THAT would guarantee we go out of business! See below pictures.

No doubt. 99% remaining carbon still makes this claim "true."

Again, your chemistry is probably sound... but there is an absolutely damning lack of easily-obtainable photographic evidence that this does anything significant on DI engine carbon buildup

Until then... snake oil.
See Below. Only one instance, but we know that we can achieve similar results in most circumstances. Not all, unfortunately.

3.6L Chevrolet DI Before

3.6L Chevrolet DI After 45-minute service

Carbontek

Cold Bud3,
See replies.

Alright, I'm not ready yet to address the E63S carbon cleaning effects yet, I can't tell and I haven't taken the after cleaning top piston #3 picture yet.

A preliminary observation: I feel like this service works better on naturally aspirated cars and I say that because of my son's response.
Judging just based only on the c300, vehicle has 135k miles and this was the first time getting such a service. ( X-pipe is the only mod on this vehicle )
I just hung up the phone with my son and he claims that it was worth it, he claims improved performance, throttle response and definitely fuel economy and also a significant decrease in engine vibration especially noted while waiting for green light.

Thanks for the feedback. This is what I would expect, and others have reported.

BTW, this is a common service completed in Europe, however only works on DRY deposited carbon buildup. It has no improvement for any wet(oil) portions on intake/exhaust/valves etc.
My brother in law drives and services W124's in Finland, (w124 crackhead) and he advised me to complete this service as well.
People in Europe tend to be a bit ahead of the USA with adopting new technology.

I spoke with him regarding the c300's response to cleaning and he's not surprised, however for my E63 he recommended a different cleaning process based on a liquid introduced in the engine that will address the wet and dry portion of the buildup. The specific fluid and delivery kit is not available in USA. There's a similar product from https://www.bgprod.com/ also promoted by the car wizard on YouTube but not sure if it's safe for MB vehicles, I'm still doing research, looking to buy the Euro kit and liquid

I can attest to the fact that the BG system can work very well. I used to perform this service when I was a technician. There are significant caveats! The chance of killing off catalytic convertors, and O2 sensors is not inconsequential. The service introduces additional fuel into a carefully calibrated system and can wreak havoc. Does it clean? Absolutely! Will it clean all the blobs off valves? Possibly, heck, probably! Can it also cause damage? Yes. Our HHO service cannot cause any damage to the engine.
The BG product is mostly Toluene. It used to consist of three parts. Intake "Fogger" that mists chemicals into the intake stream. A Fuel Injector cleaning that runs the car on cleaning chemicals, and a fuel tank additive. They may not perform the fuel injector cleaning anymore as the fogger has the most impact.

Carbontek

Yep! Another one of those "caveats" I mention elsewhere. The revving of the engine with the addition of the "Mist" is what can lead to dead catalytic convertors and O2 sensors. If the car has a marginal cat, well...goodbye! If it has NO cats, well..service away!

QuadTurboPrius

Thanks @Carbontek !

That's the kind of evidence that will compel people, especially as more and more of these engines are out there and need cleanup. I appreciate your responses!

Regarding the teardown/proof -- I mean for promotional reasons, not every car serviced. Take some sample cars with buildup, perform a pre inspection and dyno, then do the same at post. It might cost a few thousand dollars one-time after recruiting some victims, but that's cheap if it works and gets people to adopt this en-masse at regular intervals.

Carbontek

We are distributors, but there are a few independent contractors out there as well. We are growing, but it has been slow. We have also expanded into Canada, and should begin to gain stronger recognition in the near future?

Carbontek

You would be amazed at just how hard this is to get done! Our corporate office has tried for 3 years to get a shop to do pre and post teardowns, to no avail. The shops see this as useless work, even though we agreed to pay all expenses and assume any liability after the fact. I tried to engage a local Truck shop (already a customer of mine in my other endeavor) to do this and all they did was take a shot of the EGR cooler. They had an open checkbook! So, this has us relying on what little evidence we can get with a borescope (harder to get good pictures than you would think) and anecdotal evidence.
Here are the pictures of the EGR Cooler off a Volvo Semi. One hour service. Note that during the service, the EGR valve is closed, so there isn't any actual flow through it. The very slight change in carbon buildup is from HHO flowing past the cooler face.

EGR Cooler Before

EGR Cooler After

cold bud3

interesting, I actually found some actual studies on this
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...10016815001714