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Yes I am wondering if disabling the valve will heat up the oil faster which would be a big plus for cold climate cars. I live in Toronto and on some cold winter days the car never reaches operating oil temp with consistent speed highway driving. Downshifting and putting some load on the engine is the only way to bring the temps up but they settle back down into the blue after a while. Again this is only on very cold winter days but still shouldn't be the case, especially for a twin turbo V8. I had a mk7 golf R before this and that car would heat up the oil in a third of the time and had no issues maintaining temp.
Yes I am wondering if disabling the valve will heat up the oil faster which would be a big plus for cold climate cars. I live in Toronto and on some cold winter days the car never reaches operating oil temp with consistent speed highway driving. Downshifting and putting some load on the engine is the only way to bring the temps up but they settle back down into the blue after a while. Again this is only on very cold winter days but still shouldn't be the case, especially for a twin turbo V8. I had a mk7 golf R before this and that car would heat up the oil in a third of the time and had no issues maintaining temp.
I remember attending a new year party in Toronto over 10yrs ago... the cold is seriously impressive there!
Thick frost on the inside of triple pane windows.
I remember the flight out got delayed until we got rushed onboard after de-icing. The Air Canada pilot applied full throttle with the brakes On - When it let go, that's the shortest take off with limited sliding down the runway.
I am a big fan of field testing for evidence. You got to try and see which way works best.
If convenient you can splice in a switch for summer/winter inline with the solenoid.
So I see more consistent engine temperatures where oil carries heat away better from hot parts into temperature controlled coolant by virtue of Tstat.
The difference in cooling profile should be obvious before the extreme weather shows up. Personnaly I noticed that the cold start elevated idle sequence is shorter. Low idle begins sooner like 20 to 30sec after morning start.
Another amazing thing is when I press the start button, it launches engine into higher RPM instead of just cranking at lower RPM - TEST TO BE IMPRESSED
++++ Compressions improving...
Granted normal oiling can not erase damage done to friction parts.
I think normal oiling is helping improve even compressions... either by cleaning stuck rings or sealing with oil film or both combined -
Definitely something is decreasing blow-by : my vacuum pump now yields noticeably better brake assist (less oil inside?) .
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 11-18-2023 at 10:07 PM.
Interesting reading here 👍
All posters here (and in the other linked thread) have put a lot of greatly appreciated hard work in testing.
If I had a car triggering this P06DA00 code, the bypass as mentioned in the XENTRY Tips is the best course of action. No doubt. Not to mention the remote possibility of the solenoid sticking
This is an interesting topic, these 2 stage oil pump systems, and it has been discussed in many other forums too. MB is one of many manufacturers using this system.
Some basics that were posted on other sites. (chain tension theory is interesting) https://www.asme.org/topics-resource...etter-oil-pump ” Ian Pegg, Ford's project director, calls fuel economy gains of this degree "significant," but says reducing parasitic energy loss with low flow is only one part of the story. Controlling the oil feed pressure also creates additional benefits within the engine. The chain primary drive's hydraulic tensioner is affected by oil feed pressure. Maintaining a lower pressure lowers the running tension in the chain drive and its parasitic losses. Richard Burke, University of Bath research officer, also found that during warm-up, the more efficient pump heated the oil less, producing oil that was cooler by 4°C. Less heat was generated in the pressure relief valve, and less overall heat was transferred to the oil around the engine's piston and bore regions”
As far as the (non-thrust side) oil sprayers turning off at 2 bar for pistons: We know the thrust side of piston is lubricated by sump/crankcase https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/...ent-oil-pumps/ “ Another advantage to controlling the oil pressure and volume is heat management. By regulating the flow of the oil, heat transfer can be optimized in the head and in the pistons. On turbocharged motors, oil flow control can reduce the formation of carbon deposits.”
“vehicles know their oil, or at least the oil specified by the manufacturer. Vehicles know what the viscosity and flow characteristics should be because that information has been programmed into the ECM. They also know that someone installed 10W-30 when it really needs 5W-20 because it affects how the pump performs.The wrong oil can set off codes because the ECM knows what the oil pressure should be for a given engine speed and coolant temperature. If the numbers do not match, it will set a code and put the engine into a reduced power mode.”
“ good lubrication is OIL FLOW, not oil pressure ** Low oil pressure is not necessarily bad, in fact it can be very beneficial within limits ** High oil pressure is not necessarily good, in fact it can be cause for concern As pressure is resistance to flow, an engine with wide oil galleries and using a low viscosity oil will have a faster flow rate and lower oil pressure, a very desirable condition for minimising wear. Conversely, an engine with smaller galleries and a higher viscosity oil will have less oil flow and a higher oil pressure, resulting in less efficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the oil would never get to the critical parts to do it's job of lubrication and reducing wear, and in some instances the oil would 'by pass' through a valve fitted to most engines, that is to allow the oil to return to the sump, reducing the amount of oil getting to the those moving parts. High oil pressure (to high) can actually cause damage to seals and components, and should be seen as an indication of poor flow. “
Some Modern racing engines are now running in excess of 9,000 rpm at only 30psi oil pressure (can be less than 20psi at idle.). They are using a 0-20w oil too. It’s about oil flow and highly capable modern oils.
How oil is controlled in these modern variable displacement oil pumps has me rethinking my old school logic of 10psi per 1000 RPM, And the leaning towards thicker oils among other things, including discussed circulation.
I’m not advocating anything here either way, just adding some food for thought that there may be some engineering at play.
Whether you believe it’s in the interest of planned obsolescence or in the interest of engine longevity and efficiency is going to be like everything else on the internet.
Murkry
Last edited by crconsulting; 11-19-2023 at 12:46 AM.
This is an interesting read. To dispell any confusion: good oil pressure does matter a great deal to engines with oil driven VVT.
The real way to know which concept works best is to test things and let the data speak.
Some people enjoy laggy engines, some prefer twin-turbo power - All good!
What no one like is scored cylinders and dead engines. We do have a commun ground.
Bosch is an amazing power house that has driven the entire automotive world with technology licensing in the US and the best Japanese brands through Denso arm.
This oil pressure control is a nice idea but wrecklessly implemented. It's misleading to talk about pressure control when the ECU has no oil pressure sensor.
As a software developer, I understand the concept of lookup tables for calculated pressure instead of live inputs. Good software is a world of practically tested ideas.
Circling the drain with excuses is not expected from top-tier brands like Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Daimler...
Luckily we now have a free option to help good people cut down needless struggles.
This oil pressure control is a nice idea but wrecklessly implemented. It's misleading to talk about pressure control when the ECU has no oil pressure sensor.
As a software developer, I understand the concept of lookup tables for calculated pressure instead of live inputs. Good software is a world of practically tested ideas..
This is right. If we (or Mercedes) want to claim there are "benefits" to decreased oil pressure they aren't going to convince me by running an open loop control system like this.
And with the chain tension thing, yeah the chain may be under more tension with more oil pressure but the lubrication is also improved with more oil pressure. I'll take lubrication.
Cali, are you the one who made the comment on a Youtube video that said to unplug this valve? That comment is what started this whole evolution for me.
Between this and the tire pressure change, like I said above, I couldn't stop driving it when I was done.[/QUOTE]
These two forums should monitor, look at, each others research or at least follow certain individuals from the other group, I follow both even though i have an 2014 E550.
there is a lot of, ALOT OF BENEFITS I learn from both.
Thank you ALL, Your sharing and help is invaluable beyond words
M133 (i.e. CLA45), M270 (i.e. CLA250), M276 (N/A and turbo variants), M274 (350e models), M176 (4.0L turbo V8 non-AMG), M177 (4.0L turbo V8 AMG). Plus M278 and M157, of course.
Did I miss any?
Another point is, our oil pump and this valve/solenoid are both corporate parts, not AMG-special-anything. Thought that might be something some members need to know.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Good alternative view @crconsulting . If not for the Xentry TIP (i.e., "nonessential part"), I might be more concerned. I read elsewhere in one of the linked threads that the DTC should be ignored. I'll have to find it.
The TSB can be an interesting source, the list of applicable chassis is only partial to begin with... scope is wider than listed
Engines with dual-rate oil pump (single stage) showing TSB code are actually lucky to have self-fixed... this is a great fault code to have and keep - It is the object of that thread here .
People with that code essentially have a disabled valve, which in this thread is noted as an improvement.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 11-19-2023 at 11:07 AM.
Alright I drove it around for an hour this morning. Temps were cool initially but warmed up to 50. MCT is still smooth so that is a real change, not a fluke.
I also noted the startup idle flare is totally different now, as Cali said it would be. Instead of revving up high and holding for a while it just sort of started normally and settled into an idle quickly. I can't explain why it would be different but it is.
As far as oil temps, inconclusive. As I said it was 50 so not exactly cold. But temps were at least holding above 180 even on the highway. I will be sure to check this week on my commute as it is supposed to be pretty cold.
Alright I drove it around for an hour this morning. Temps were cool initially but warmed up to 50. MCT is still smooth so that is a real change, not a fluke.
I also noted the startup idle flare is totally different now, as Cali said it would be. Instead of revving up high and holding for a while it just sort of started normally and settled into an idle quickly. I can't explain why it would be different but it is.
As far as oil temps, inconclusive. As I said it was 50 so not exactly cold. But temps were at least holding above 180 even on the highway. I will be sure to check this week on my commute as it is supposed to be pretty cold.
Overall on day 2 still 100% recommended.
was the battery unplugged when you worked on the solenoid? Could the Mct improvement just be resetting adaptations?
14 E63, 05 E55, 03 Evo 8, 08 F250, 06 R6R, 92 Talon TSI, and instability
Originally Posted by kevm14
This is right. If we (or Mercedes) want to claim there are "benefits" to decreased oil pressure they aren't going to convince me by running an open loop control system like this.
And with the chain tension thing, yeah the chain may be under more tension with more oil pressure but the lubrication is also improved with more oil pressure. I'll take lubrication.
The chain may be under more tension, but truly by how much? The updated tensioner included an oil restrictor, which reduces flow to the tensioners exponentially. Unrestricted/non-updated tensioner setups, sure, I can buy into this. But not so much on the modified setup.
The TSB can be an interesting source, the list of applicable chassis is only partial to begin with... scope is wider than listed
Engines with dual-rate oil pump (single stage) showing TSB code are actually lucky to have self-fixed... this is a great fault code to have and keep - It is the object of that thread here .
People with that code essentially have a disabled valve, which in this thread is noted as an improvement.
Forgive me but I’m a complete newbie when it comes to Mercedes-Benz cars. I recently purchased a 2013 SL63 with a good amount of miles on it - I have been doing a ton of reading in hopes to increase the M157’s longevity as long as possible. Seems even with a service contract, one could be SOL based on the worth of the car when an engine needs repair or replacing. Fortunately, in my case the car has been very well maintained over the years.
I’ve read a lot on the scoring issues, oil leaks, etc - mind boggling! And after a lot of digestion, it seems that a lot of troubles can be traced back to the two-phase oiling system/algorithm.
I’ve been in IT for the past thirty+ years but have been around cars/boats/etc all my life. I’ve built big block Chevy’s that run wide open for extended periods in my powerboat. There’s one thing you don’t screw with… lubrication.
Is it safe to assume that disconnecting the solenoid on the 2013 M157 (October 2012 build) will see like results? If so, I plan to disconnect, and then while I’m at it, run some sea foam through the engine, change the oil over to Driven and add some LiquiMoly for the last bit of prevention.
Thanks for a great thread (as well as the related/originals - great reading)!
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by TomZVB
... If so, I plan to disconnect, and then while I’m at it, run some sea foam through the engine, change the oil over to Driven and add some LiquiMoly for the last bit of prevention.
I've not been a big fan of oil additives since Slick50 effed up the valve train (hydraulic lifters) in a 1990 Mazda MPV I had. That said, I'm even less of a fan adding anything to the oil in a turbo car. Stick with the manufacturer's recommended oil (Mobil 1 0W-40 in my case) and change it every 5000 miles.
I have run Sea Foam through the intake on some cars I've had (it will throw a CEL, but that was easily cleared), but never added it to the motor oil.
Is it safe to assume that disconnecting the solenoid on the 2013 M157 (October 2012 build) will see like results? If so, I plan to disconnect
Just to be sure I looked it up in EPC and yes your car has the exact same solenoid, so you should see the same general results/benefits.
That said, I am not claiming that simply unplugging this solenoid will cure all that ails the M157 (though that would be nice) and while the theories are good, we just don't have that much data on it. Honestly I didn't expect many or any of the benefits I already have witnessed. I assumed it was just a longevity play and the "benefit" would be less chance of some terminal issue. The benefits I noticed are icing on the cake.
I've not been a big fan of oil additives since Slick50 effed up the valve train (hydraulic lifters) in a 1990 Mazda MPV I had. That said, I'm even less of a fan adding anything to the oil in a turbo car. Stick with the manufacturer's recommended oil (Mobil 1 0W-40 in my case) and change it every 5000 miles.
I have run Sea Foam through the intake on some cars I've had (it will throw a CEL, but that was easily cleared), but never added it to the motor oil.
LiquiMoly makes an engine flush that is meant to run for 10-20 minutes AT IDLE ONLY. So he could give that a try (after unplugging oil valve).
Through the intake seems good but I have this paranoia that a piece of carbon/oil gunk on an intake valve could break off and wreak havoc on the cylinder wall (knowing how soft they are). Of course, that could happen anyway (without any chemical).
Just to be sure I looked it up in EPC and yes your car has the exact same solenoid, so you should see the same general results/benefits.
That said, I am not claiming that simply unplugging this solenoid will cure all that ails the M157 (though that would be nice) and while the theories are good, we just don't have that much data on it. Honestly I didn't expect many or any of the benefits I already have witnessed. I assumed it was just a longevity play and the "benefit" would be less chance of some terminal issue. The benefits I noticed are icing on the cake.
Isn't the icing on the cake the most delicious part tho?
I've not been a big fan of oil additives since Slick50 effed up the valve train (hydraulic lifters) in a 1990 Mazda MPV I had. That said, I'm even less of a fan adding anything to the oil in a turbo car. Stick with the manufacturer's recommended oil (Mobil 1 0W-40 in my case) and change it every 5000 miles.
I have run Sea Foam through the intake on some cars I've had (it will throw a CEL, but that was easily cleared), but never added it to the motor oil.
cant agree more . If there's something you want I believe you should source the oil that gives this to you . Most people put additives they will never need or get the most out of. In the case of the m157 I jumped up to a 5w50 years ago and haven't looked back. Addressed everything I hated about the 0-40
mobil. Less blow by , longer intervals before adding a quart, more stable viscosity and not being thinned out from heavy abuse and a **** ton of methanol. Note this is an opinion based of personal experience.
In the case of the m157 I jumped up to a 5w50 years ago and haven't looked back. Addressed everything I hated about the 0-40
mobil. Less blow by , longer intervals before adding a quart, more stable viscosity and not being thinned out from heavy abuse and a **** ton of methanol. Note this is an opinion based of personal experience.
I also switched to 5W-40, and 5K mile intervals, just a year ago. The oil level has not dropped much between the last two services while before was a full quart @8K miles.
On the switch from 0W-40, an engineer from a turbo-compressor manufacturer advised me to increase the weight to 5W-40 or 10W-40. Their turbo are tested for 0W, 5W, and 10W (and other to course) w/o any side effects.
I've not been a big fan of oil additives since Slick50 effed up the valve train (hydraulic lifters) in a 1990 Mazda MPV I had. That said, I'm even less of a fan adding anything to the oil in a turbo car. Stick with the manufacturer's recommended oil (Mobil 1 0W-40 in my case) and change it every 5000 miles.
I have run Sea Foam through the intake on some cars I've had (it will throw a CEL, but that was easily cleared), but never added it to the motor oil.
Agreed. While I was in school and working at an auto parts store, Slick 50 was showing up on the shelves. Complete garbage. I wouldn’t run anything like that. My thought was more around LiquiMoly MOS2 which seems to be in the good graces for use here on MBWorld. I did plan to step up the oil viscosity. It doesn’t get cold enough here for 0W.
11-18-2023, 06:23 PM
