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Well, that's rather interesting for your car. It looks like the rise in oil pressure is linear for the M133 engine. Did we determine that you had a two-stage oil pump?
This a picture of the oil pump, the usual suspect is there, so we just need confirmation.
I have just figured out something experimentally that's truly amazing: normal heat.
I have been animate about activating my VVT near idle with higher viscosity, right?
> TEMP VS. VISCOSITY:
For the third time I noticed a DEEP DROP in garage temperature after nudging my oil viscosity.
> How:
This NORMAL COOLING is easily reproduceable with a booster shot of 15W50
-- The first time I "canceled low pressure mode": MOD1.0: SOLN.
-- The second time I was going from 0w40 to 5w40: garage got noticeably cooler. MOD2.0: OIL.
-- The third time is recently after adding a viscosity booster shot: 500ml of 15w50 at 2kMi. on 5w40 that was starting to get vaporized. MOD2.1: 15W-x
-- Haha moment:
This leads me to believe a tiny bit better viscosity cools engine a whole lot better.
How is that possible....?
The difference is so big it must be from squirting.
I think I just understood that with thin oil, the squirting at low rpm is not working, right?
Now my engine is noticeably cooler because my pump makes the necessary 20psi near 1100.RPM to cool pistons at normal driving speed.
With a bit less viscosity the squirting only happens at higher RPM.
Casing point booster shot of 0.5L in 8.0L of oil makes a day and night temp jump. (Gauge shows not difference).
This means this engine is designed for higher viscosity else hydraulics are disabled and heat is trapped as with stock solenoid above 3500RPM
No squirters give high heat <<<
Locked VVT Gear reduce poor torque
Loose Tensioners cause laggy response.
In a nutshell you have options. If you want normal heat you need the viscosity to squirt the pistons at driving speed above idle.
You noticed MOD1.0 dropped superheat, right?
Now notice MOD2.1 drops heat under control.
I was purely trying to improve early VVT timings and I found a solution to drop heat under normal ECU control.
> WHERE TO FIND:
The next steps are going to be about finding a good synthetic oil with 15w40 with booster shot when needed or midway through 5000Mi oil change.
+++ VICIOUS CYCLE +++
Here is how viscosity gets lost exponentially :
as 2kMi viscosity becomes marginal
lower pressure disable squirting
marginal cooling overheats oil out of range.
Cooked oil rapidly looses more viscosity
Oil further gets burned with further less squirting.
This explains the importance of oil change interval.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-20-2024 at 06:02 AM.
I have just figured out something experimentally that's truly amazing: normal heat.
I have been animate about activating my VVT near idle with higher viscosity, right?
> TEMP VS. VISCOSITY:
For the third time I noticed a DEEP DROP in garage temperature after nudging my oil viscosity.
> How:
This NORMAL COOLING is easily reproduceable with a booster shot of 15W50
-- The first time I "canceled low pressure mode": MOD1.0: SOLN.
-- The second time I was going from 0w40 to 5w40: garage got noticeably cooler. MOD2.0: OIL.
-- The third time is recently after adding a viscosity booster shot: 500ml of 15w50 at 2kMi. on 5w40 that was starting to get vaporized. MOD2.1: 15W-x
-- Haha moment:
This leads me to believe a tiny bit better viscosity cools engine a whole lot better.
How is that possible....?
The difference is so big it must be from squirting.
I think I just understood that with thin oil, the squirting at low rpm is not working, right?
Now my engine is noticeably cooler because my pump makes the necessary 20psi near 1100.RPM to cool pistons at normal driving speed.
With a bit less viscosity the squirting only happens at higher RPM.
Casing point booster shot of 0.5L in 8.0L of oil makes a day and night temp jump. (Gauge shows not difference).
This means this engine is designed for higher viscosity else hydraulics are disabled and heat is trapped as with stock solenoid above 3500RPM
No squirters give high heat <<<
Locked VVT Gear reduce poor torque
Loose Tensioners cause laggy response.
In a nutshell you have options. If you want normal heat you need the viscosity to squirt the pistons at driving speed above idle.
You noticed MOD1.0 dropped superheat, right?
Now notice MOD2.1 drops heat under control.
I was purely trying to improve early VVT timings and I found a solution to drop heat under normal ECU control.
> WHERE TO FIND:
The next steps are going to be about finding a good synthetic oil with 15w40 with booster shot when needed or midway through 5000Mi oil change.
+++ VICIOUS CYCLE +++
Here is how viscosity gets lost exponentially :
as 2kMi viscosity becomes marginal
lower pressure disable squirting
marginal cooling overheats oil out of range.
Cooked oil rapidly looses more viscosity
Oil further gets burned with further less squirting.
This explains the importance of oil change interval.
Yes, any time you can increase oil pressure the piston cooling jets come on sooner, thus bringing down cylinder temps, bringing down engine temps.
The trade off is slight loss of MPG, The gain of thin oil and two stage oil pressure is slight to begin with. The other trade off is slight loss of HP and Torque at peak performance, usually only seen on dyne results, butt dyno will not perceive it. But, you will never need worry about detonation.
Very interesting. I was assuming (bad idea) that all late model engines were essentially the same when it came to things like operating temperatures and oil pressures. So now we need to be more specific as to which engines we are referring to. Now I wonder if all use the 2-stage oil pump or has that been dropped with newer designs? As mentioned, the 133 engine appears to have linear increases in oil pressure where our 276, 278, etc. engines have the jump in pressure at Stage 2 (solenoid off).
There is also quite a difference in operating temperatures among engines from 85°C to 100°C.
Very interesting. I was assuming (bad idea) that all late model engines were essentially the same when it came to things like operating temperatures and oil pressures. So now we need to be more specific as to which engines we are referring to. Now I wonder if all use the 2-stage oil pump or has that been dropped with newer designs? As mentioned, the 133 engine appears to have linear increases in oil pressure where our 276, 278, etc. engines have the jump in pressure at Stage 2 (solenoid off).
There is also quite a difference in operating temperatures among engines from 85°C to 100°C.
Besides pressures this doc shows the operating temperatures. This is misleading for those unaware of the truncated reality. M272 engines with/without dual pressure
Above table shows that both M272 share a 90C design is missing the vast amount of heat trapped within.
We've shown the core engine temp is directly linked to oil pressure ability to cool cylinders.
Running engine without active piston squirting increase core heat into oil vaporizion temperatures. I don't think thats near 90C target.
Regulating coolant temperature becomes challenging when extreme heat is not circulated out.
To run near the design temperature the engine needs active squirting to transfer pistons heat into oil and coolant through exchanger.
The degree of trapped heat is linked to the actual RPM needed to activate piston squirting. Meaning cooling is constrained by available oil pressure.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-20-2024 at 05:28 PM.
Yes, any time you can increase oil pressure the piston cooling jets come on sooner, thus bringing down cylinder temps, bringing down engine temps.
The trade off is slight loss of MPG, The gain of thin oil and two stage oil pressure is slight to begin with. The other trade off is slight loss of HP and Torque at peak performance, usually only seen on dyne results, butt dyno will not perceive it. But, you will never need worry about detonation.
Rick, I am always amazed how we are supposed to be excited by "gas savings"... on a heavy TT V8 SUV
I am not familiar with the red-lining compatibility of oil viscosities. It is a balancing act!
I think it's misleading to focus on gas saving at 6k.RPM.
Heat at 6k.RPM vs. viscosity is a more relevant concern.
I could not believe when parking my W212 in the garage did not result in massive heat. I did not expect only half-quart of good Mobil1 would do that - I thought I would share my simple fix.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-20-2024 at 06:01 PM.
Very interesting. I was assuming (bad idea) that all late model engines were essentially the same when it came to things like operating temperatures and oil pressures. So now we need to be more specific as to which engines we are referring to. Now I wonder if all use the 2-stage oil pump or has that been dropped with newer designs? As mentioned, the 133 engine appears to have linear increases in oil pressure where our 276, 278, etc. engines have the jump in pressure at Stage 2 (solenoid off).
There is also quite a difference in operating temperatures among engines from 85°C to 100°C.
M133/M270/ and old M271 and maybe more looks like linear
Variable volume oil pump used on GM's Gen V LT1 - Great video showing how the variable stage oil pump works. This is pretty much how our pumps work. A key point is made about oil demand and fuel economy. Difference is that this pump runs off the end of the crankshaft vs chain on ours.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by TomZVB
Variable volume oil pump used on GM's Gen V LT1 - Great video showing how the variable stage oil pump works. This is pretty much how our pumps work. A key point is made about oil demand and fuel economy. Difference is that this pump runs off the end of the crankshaft vs chain on ours.
Enjoy!
I think this was covered before, in this thread or another, but this is not like ours. That is a variable volume vane-type pump and ours simply uses a solenoid to restrict pressure. The end goal is probably similar, but a totally different approach.
M133/M270/ and old M271 and maybe more looks like linear
I read this a bit differently...
there are 2x types of M271 described as follows: left side M271.9 is unlimited vs. M271.8 shows reduced steps
The difference in pressure decrease is shown at 2k.RPM: 3.6 bar vs 2.7 bar.
When restriction is canceled pressure should then be a closer match... MOD1.0
Variable volume oil pump used on GM's Gen V LT1 - Great video showing how the variable stage oil pump works. This is pretty much how our pumps work. A key point is made about oil demand and fuel economy. Difference is that this pump runs off the end of the crankshaft vs chain on ours.
This is a pretty good pump presentation with sticky fingers by a savy GM pro.
We recognize the exact same components:
the variable geometry,
the big return spring
the control solenoid to shift chamber volume
the high pressure relief port
The only difference is our pump is chain driven vs. GM uses direct drive RPM. So we have a gear ratio GM does not.
They use a single camshaft in the valley with super short timing chain.
The video talks about an interesting aspect with these vane pumps: a reminder that our pump runs on unfiltered oil... whatever is picked up in the sump goes through the delicate pump vanes to then be pushed through the oil filter.
So keep oil and sump free of aluminum glitter.
Video shows how some contaminants are found stored inside one of the pump cavities.
> Limited pressure on GM applications:
What that means for GM using the BOSCH design is they may face issues related to "managed pressure".
Video shows the familiar VVT solenoid is located right next to pump: a much better pressure supply for this design
Limited piston squirting pressure and dry cylinders are going to store extreme heat that produce similar related issues.
> Uncontrolled 2 to 4 Bar step:
I recognize the pressure shift is not handled particularly well by VVT positioning. This pressure shift creates engine driveability issues when camshaft position goes nuts for a blimp until it adjust target position with new pressure.
What sort of oil viscosity do this engines run on ??
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-21-2024 at 04:41 PM.
I think this was covered before, in this thread or another, but this is not like ours.
That is a variable volume vane-type pump and ours simply uses a solenoid to restrict pressure.
The end goal is probably similar, but a totally different approach.
JR: yes, on one hand the pump drive is different and on the other hand our solenoid works exactly the same way to decrease chamber volume for the spinning vanes.
Former pumps used to be reliable gear pumps described in the video as extremely robust with fewer parts.
The video explains how the pump shift is operated by solenoid against the tight return spring.
The pump's own pressure is used to reduce its output volume against the return spring.
What is radically different is the single camshaft VVT + tensioner: we have 3 chains and 4x VVT, GM has one! Meaning less issue
Some engines use a discreet solenoid to control the squirting activity regardless of individual ball on spring.
I am here to help, like other awesome world-class members that disolve chaos with a helpful friendly attitude.
This thread is a "Back to the Future!" .. it's all about identifying issues and matching advanced solutions.
The latest MOD2.1 level is an extension of what pulling the plug did in MOD1.0... provide squirting to increase responsiveness and reduce extreme heat at driving RPM.
Fix oiling issues under 3500.RPM.. MOD1.
Fix oiling issues under 2500.RPM.. MOD2.
Fix oiling issues under 1700.RPM.. MOD2.1
These fancy pumps are pressure constrained.
+++ RELATED TOPICS opportunities :
understand piston ring cleanup to seal
understand viscosity: driveability vs. red-line
understand what impedes progresses ??
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-21-2024 at 07:15 PM.
Rick, I am always amazed how we are supposed to be excited by "gas savings"... on a heavy TT V8 SUV
I am not familiar with the red-lining compatibility of oil viscosities. It is a balancing act!
I think it's misleading to focus on gas saving at 6k.RPM.
Heat at 6k.RPM vs. viscosity is a more relevant concern.
I could not believe when parking my W212 in the garage did not result in massive heat. I did not expect only half-quart of good Mobil1 would do that - I thought I would share my simple fix.
I could not agree more, Cali. People go on about MPG, then drive like their hair is on fire, negating any fuel savings they might have hoped for.
If I wanted mileage, I'd have bought a toyota 4 cylinder hybrid with a limiter to go with my lithium pills.
I drive Benz, no lithium needed.
Cool engine happy engine.
It is a balancing act on oil, too heavy an oil, you can lose lubrication as oil can't return to the pan fast enough and oil pressure dips, too thin and pressure is not enough for cam adjusters.
And the only way to be certain, is on a dyno where oil pressure and peak hp/torque traces can be lined up for proper comparison and testing. Dyno's properly run can take ALL the guesswork out. Problem is, then you get to see all the lean spots in your curve and have to fight the urge to tune them out too.
I could not agree more, Cali. People go on about MPG, then drive like their hair is on fire, negating any fuel savings they might have hoped for.
If I wanted mileage, I'd have bought a toyota 4 cylinder hybrid with a limiter to go with my lithium pills.
I drive Benz, no lithium needed.
Cool engine happy engine.
It is a balancing act on oil, too heavy an oil, you can lose lubrication as oil can't return to the pan fast enough and oil pressure dips, too thin and pressure is not enough for cam adjusters.
And the only way to be certain, is on a dyno where oil pressure and peak hp/torque traces can be lined up for proper comparison and testing. Dyno's properly run can take ALL the guesswork out. Problem is, then you get to see all the lean spots in your curve and have to fight the urge to tune them out too.
As I've said before, I really do not care much about fuel mileage - as long as it's not washing down cylinders, I say give it all the fuel it wants!
I think the only ones really worried about gas mileage with correlation to engine power, etc, are the manufacturers - fleet fuel economy numbers are what they're after and those standards are extremely tight. If they cannot fit into a certain bucket, huge penalties arise - this is for the EU as well as the US. It is amazing that MB managed to keep a majority of their cars off the EPA's gas guzzler list:
None of the cars from the 2016 model year are V8s, only V12s - this is astounding when you consider that the AMG versions make Dodge Challenger/Charger Hellcat-level torque from 5.5 liters.
Any who, my point is that there is a good reason for the way Mercedes-Benz went about these mileage improvements. Unfortunately, those improvements are also a detriment to longevity - it's why we do this.
I could not agree more, Cali. People go on about MPG, then drive like their hair is on fire, negating any fuel savings they might have hoped for.
If I wanted mileage, I'd have bought a toyota 4 cylinder hybrid with a limiter to go with my lithium pills.
I drive Benz, no lithium needed.
Cool engine happy engine.
It is a balancing act on oil, too heavy an oil, you can lose lubrication as oil can't return to the pan fast enough and oil pressure dips, too thin and pressure is not enough for cam adjusters.
And the only way to be certain, is on a dyno where oil pressure and peak hp/torque traces can be lined up for proper comparison and testing. Dyno's properly run can take ALL the guesswork out. Problem is, then you get to see all the lean spots in your curve and have to fight the urge to tune them out too.
Rick, yep as you point out indeed "it is a true balancing act!"
OIL needs to juggle with many variables to lubricate, cool and save gas with hot metal frictions.
This dyno test shows the correlation between oil and gasoline use. More oil... more gas.
This video leaves me thinking oil is the enemy of performance near red-line right?
But me old-school oiler : MOD1 showed us our engines like better oil pressure below 3500.RPM
I come from the other end of the spectrum: from 650 to 4000.RPM. The normal driveability range.
We know that greater viscosity is not going to save gas. Most of us understand it is a non-issue in injected engines with O2-Lambda all the way to our tail pipes.
In fact lets pause here on the video... less oil in the sump results in less pressure at high RPM.
WHY is that?
Isn't that the vicious cycle we evidenced:
more ROM heat
lower viscosity
less pressure
less squirting
more piston heat
burned oil 400°
less viscosity
Changing oiling parameters requires a period of automatic ECU/TCU adaptation. What happens is more of what we got with MOD1 but lower RPM without any extreme heat.
To me this evidence our oil pump is under rev'ed by chain sprocket ratio.
I do understand modern oiling is supposed to prevent surfaces frictions with its advanced additives package and not so much the film thickness. This is what's proven by limited oiling below 3500.RPM. No question engines can run on limited oiling with approved oils (until leaky cylinders begin to trigger "misfiring" codes).
I find that formula with both combined is superior:
approved oil package + oil film thickness
No point in going with "package only" on dry pistons. Rings seals better with a film.
None of this is new, right?
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-22-2024 at 08:59 PM.
This video leaves me thinking oil is the enemy of performance near red-line right?
But me old-school oiler : MOD1 showed us our engines like better oil pressure below 3500.RPM
I come from the other end of the spectrum: from 650 to 4000.RPM. The normal driveability range.
We know that greater viscosity is not going to save gas. Most of us understand it is a non-issue in injected engines with O2-Lambda all the way to our tail pipes.
In fact lets pause here on the video... less oil in the sump results in less pressure at high RPM.
WHY is that?
Isn't that the vicious cycle we evidenced:
more ROM heat
lower viscosity
less pressure
less squirting
more piston heat
burned oil 400°
less viscosity
Changing oiling parameters requires a period of automatic ECU/TCU adaptation. What happens is more of what we got with MOD1 but lower RPM without any extreme heat.
To me this evidence our oil pump is under rev'ed by chain sprocket ratio.
I do understand modern oiling is supposed to prevent surfaces frictions with its advanced additives package and not so much the film thickness. This is what's proven by limited oiling below 3500.RPM. No question engines can run on limited oiling with approved oils (until leaky cylinders begin to trigger "misfiring" codes).
I find that formula with both combined is superior:
approved oil package + oil film thickness
No point in going with "package only" on dry pistons. Rings seals better with a film.
None of this is new, right?
that’s so funny you’d share this video, I just came across it last week while deep in a YouTube rabbit hole inspired by thinking about this thread. 😂
Main diagnostics was factory defective crankshaft was showing forging crack at 2000 Mi only.
The only negative comment I heard was:
Q: Can we replace this engine?
"We got 3x used engines and they were all junk".
Oil8ng would not help this hard fault.
For everyone else, viscosity would help soft cushion a fluid film on bearings.
We keep looking at oil related nightmares...
the best solution maybe a mix of :
approved additives package + viscosity
- Best of both protections wins:
mix a little of xW-50 in approved xW-40
makes approved xW42
Obvious simple fix
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-23-2024 at 04:47 PM.
03-20-2024, 04:03 AM
