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M276 NA and Biturbo do have an engine temperature sensor.
However, per MB literature the temperature dial is DOCTORED to display ranges, not actual temperature.
When the temperature dial display @90, the true temperature can still be @100. I do not have the MB note describing the ranges.
Are the AMG menu reported temperature doctored as well? It seems they are not since they move continuously through the digits. However, with MB recent track record, it may as well be damped and react slowly. Who knows.
2004 E55 AMG, 2006 CLS63, 2004 ML55, 2014 E350 sport
Originally Posted by juanmor40
M276 NA and Biturbo do have an engine temperature sensor.
However, per MB literature the temperature dial is DOCTORED to display ranges, not actual temperature.
When the temperature dial display @90, the true temperature can still be @100. I do not have the MB note describing the ranges.
Are the AMG menu reported temperature doctored as well? It seems they are not since they move continuously through the digits. However, with MB recent track record, it may as well be damped and react slowly. Who knows.
Ahh ok I must of read it wrong. I only skimmed that thread and noted it. But yeah I have seen Tasos state when measuring coolant temp on certain models that xentry gives you a true coolant temp but looking at the gauge does not or something like that. So its not just oil temp they are dicking around with.
Ahh ok I must of read it wrong. I only skimmed that thread and noted it. But yeah I have seen Tasos state when measuring coolant temp on certain models that xentry gives you a true coolant temp but looking at the gauge does not or something like that. So its not just oil temp they are dicking around with.
Correct, as I understand the MB ECU's reading of temperatures to the user.
How I basically use this information is as a gauge of general trends in temperature that I can log and view while driving myself, as a guideline of when to start spirited driving, and a warning of any extreme temperatures going on.
Sidenote:
I have seen some people getting BenzNinja coding to also display transmission fluid temperature on that same menu. Does anyone know if the W212 E63s can have this coded in? I'd love to have that temp on my AMG screen as well.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by AMGandS1K
I have seen some people getting BenzNinja coding to also display transmission fluid temperature on that same menu. Does anyone know if the W212 E63s can have this coded in? I'd love to have that temp on my AMG screen as well.
Anyone wants to see the parts of the oil pump taken apart, watch this video.
Found it by accident. No affiliation with the maker of this video and since it's public, anyone can find it so I assume the person's OK with me posting it here.
I'm sorry if it has been posted already.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by EckFe1
Anyone wants to see the parts of the oil pump taken apart, watch this video.
First time I've seen/watched this video. Pretty interesting to see how the solenoid operates the position of the vanes housing (or whatever you call it) to open or close off some of the flow. All the more reason I want the maximum available oil pressure (speed dependent) at all times.
pump internals
Here we can see the pump rotor and the pump chamber returned to resting position by spring.
This is the chamber position to pump normal pressure.
solenoid pressure translates chamber against spring
- This dual-rate pump is a pretty clever piece of engineering. Countless precisely machined parts with smooth finish all ruined by misguided software code
- It is sad to let a single detail waste so much.
At least now we came up with a workaround solution to test.
> PUMP DESIGN SALVAGE:
We can think of positive usage to blur the lines for this troublesome pump.
This managed pump design can be repurposed for greater goods such as SMOOTH PRESSURE!
Previously I wrote how the root cause of the VVT issue is that the ECU software is ignoring the dual slope pressures.
The logic can not appropriately account for two pressures on one map. 4x VVT x2 rates calls for 8 maps or different tracking.
Meaning there's a case for using low pressure with proper RPM transitioning.
In addition testing has shown that hot oil viscosity and pressure can vary widely between northern climates and the tropics.
This begs for a clever adjustment with a variable pump!!
> 180° SOLUTION:
Instead of using the pump to stress the engine, the pump can be managed to smooth out performance with regulated oil delivery.
On/Off is a crude control. We can easily get continuously variable control.
Testing has shown us what poor pressure does, flip that around to imagine what the opposite can do... That's what i am talking about.
The flat oil pressure regardless of RPM, Temp or Viscosity. No one will want to unplug that control out!
Quote for Master Tasos' wisdom:
"Reliable engine power, needs no chaos".
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 01-04-2024 at 06:27 PM.
The solenoid is on the output side of the pump isn’t it?… I’d think that it has to be.
How is that controlling the vane ring?
The electrical valve switches pressure to translate the chamber position against its return spring.
Active parts :
Rotor spins around fixed axis
Vanes expend outwards
Chamber wall translates position
Solenoid routs pressure on/off
Spring resets chamber location
The rotor vanes expend dynamically at every rotation to meet the outer chamber wall.
The position of the chamber in relation to rotor axis controls the pumped volume thus resulting pressure.
The engine oil pressure is drastically affected by heat. This is why the engine needs controlled operating temperature. Oil that has not been superheated retains its normal viscosity up to 7 to 10kMi.
What strikes me is...
What this engine need is oil under constant pressure. Instead we get the exact opposite when it counts the most: Extended idle pressure to create dry frictions under boosted condition...
Change or don't change a thing, results are amazing either ways
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 01-05-2024 at 02:02 AM.
@Calibenzdriver : Would that require PWM over a infintely variable vane pump ? It would require 3d maps and input from an actual oil pressure sensor... Sensor is easy..adding code is not.
OT but is the ECU code still done in assembler ?
for best choice of longevity and performance at higher rpm , we used to use high volume oil pumps on SBC. Crude and not variable but more effective than the std volume pumps
@Calibenzdriver : Would that require PWM over a infintely variable vane pump ? It would require 3d maps and input from an actual oil pressure sensor... Sensor is easy..adding code is not.
OT but is the ECU code still done in assembler ?
for best choice of longevity and performance at higher rpm , we used to use high volume oil pumps on SBC. Crude and not variable but more effective than the std volume pumps
> How to get a FLATTER OIL PRESSURE...
- I am sure this is being done in race car or performance industry.
The problem we have with oil pumps is the resulting pressure depends on many factors, that's why it varies so wildly.
- In our case pressures varies from 15psi to 55psi...
pumped volume varies with RPM
pumped volume varies with temp
oil viscosity varies with temperature
oil viscosity varies with age
> VVT on 15psi to 55psi...
- This is what controls or brakes performance through timings and poor mixture adaptations.
- That's direct chaos factor No1.
> Squirters on 25psi to 55psi...
- This is what controls or brakes oil temperature ie. viscosity ie. pressure.
- That's indirect chaos factor No2.
> How to remove RPM delta: electrical!
Based on the above we want to keep the chain pump reliability and add a pressure boost...
- Electrical pump may be easily controlled but can quit for any reasons. No need to confirm that with a blown engine.
- We want that electric pump only as secondary assistance to bring pressure up 15 to 20 psi
> Electrical Pressure Regulation
This doesn't have to be a perfect regulation. VVT can adapt to predictable changes.
We want to stay away from extreme lows /highs.
We want not to dump pressure through existing 60PSI relief ball & spring. This creates additional heat.
ECU Assembler: NIET!
Don't dream of coding any miracle without the source code. Extending the core logic is unlike overwriting performance maps. Even that's hard to do without impacting reliability.
So I think the best solution is to strap on an additional electric pressure regulated chinasium oil pump. Instant joy at your command: ON/OFF
> Sample search: ~100
additional model volume
12V hot oil pump
some type of pressure control
gear driven or vane fixed
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 01-05-2024 at 06:13 PM.
Actual journal bearings don't usually mind a linear pressure curve. But when you add forced induction and MANY other uses for the oil, it gets way more complicated.
Actual journal bearings don't usually mind a linear pressure curve.
But when you add forced induction and MANY other uses for the oil, it gets way more complicated.
Journal bearings want a cushioning film against friction. What they don't want is aluminum contaminants or plugged passage with a chunk of silicone sealant.
When we increase the overall pumped volume, we help the circulation through the heat exchanger. In turn that helps viscosity stay in range where VVT can adapt to it perfectly.
So its in our best interested to keep up oil flow in a hot boosted application (cancel low pressure).
That's the exact opposite of extending low idle oil flow, right?
We are coming back from vaporized oil, so incremental improvements are easy ✌️
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 01-05-2024 at 10:42 PM.
@Calibenzdriver : Would that require PWM over a infintely variable vane pump ? It would require 3d maps and input from an actual oil pressure sensor... Sensor is easy..adding code is not.
OT but is the ECU code still done in assembler ?
for best choice of longevity and performance at higher rpm , we used to use high volume oil pumps on SBC. Crude and not variable but more effective than the std volume pumps
The pump would have to have a compensator spool to be continuously variable. This situation it essentially has an on off solenoid to stroke the pumps volume.
To have a continuously variable pump in this situation a Vane pump would not be the choice of any engineer. you would then move to a pressure compensated piston pump for efficiency and tunability. this on a general market car is unlikely to happen. Oil pumps on engines will likely always be RPM dependant in the complexity of current setups. This type of vane pump is very old technology in the hydraulic world.
======
ADD INFO : This is M276.820 3.0 Turbo engine and is only 329HP of E400 W212, not M278 or M157.
JettaRed engine is M276.825 3.0 Turbo but at 367HP I believe. SL400 chassis.
======
OIL SOLENOID NOT DEFEATED.
Engine at ambient temperature already, 30-32C and been OFF like 24 hours. So this is a COLD START of the day.
First +-35 seconds of the cold start, ECM does not operate oil solenoid, ECM wants higher pressure and faster oil distribution.
If engine is already warm, the ECM will immediately trigger oil solenoid to reduce oil pressure at start.
10% duty cycle to oil solenoid means OFF. Oil pressure not lowered by ECM.
70% duty cycle or higher means oil solenoid "ON", oil pressure solenoid will reduce oil pressure. Lowest duty cycle as "ON", I seen is like 76%.
Aug 2022. COLD START. Ambient temp read by OBD2 is 29C / 84F. Coolant temp 30C / 86F. OIL SOLENOID NOT DEFEATED.
Actually the ECM for the 2nd time allow higher oil pressure ( Solenoid OFF, duty cycle 10% ) even at idling, see minute 2:00 to 3:33 , coolant temp at 53C / 127F when at minute 2:00.
By 03:33 minute coolant temp already at 58C / 136F.
. SEPT 2023. COLD START, 2nd video. Oil solenoid power diverted to 2 x 3.4 watts bulb as a method to defeat and not get DTC for oil solenoid.
Bulbs dim is 10% duty cycle, means oil solenoid is OFF as per ECM command, so normal good high pressure.
Bulbs bright is 70% or higher duty cycle, means oil solenoid is supposedly to be ON and reduce pressure.
Video time code starts exactly with engine start.
Ambient Temp at engine first start was 31.5C / 88.7F at front bumper sensor . Coolant temp was 30C / 86F.
ECM allows normal high oil pressure, see bulbs are dim, up to video time code 36 seconds. So 36 seconds allowance of normal high oil pressure when at cold start. Coolant temp by now 40.5C / 105F
At video time code 2:00 , for the 2nd time ECM allows high oil pressure while at idle, bulbs dim. Coolant temp by now 52.5C / 126F.
This high pressure allowance is until 03:35 when EMC reduce oil pressure again.Bulbs bright. Coolant by now 58.50C / 137F.
The difference between this 2nd cold start video to the 1st one is, during 2nd video time code 2:00 to 03:35 I did reverse the car a bit and at 03:24 onward I was revving the engine to 1,600 RPM.
ECM doesn't care, it still keep allowing higher oil pressure.
So the allowance of NORMAL or good high pressure oil during a cold start seems to be coolant temperature based, at least for the 2nd allowance it is so obvious which is coolant temp 53C to 58C / 127 to 136F.and worth
1:30 ish second for my ambient temperature.
The first allowance of NORMAL or good high pressure oil during a cold star is approx for 35 seconds immediately when engine started.
I can't simulate any cooler than my 25C ambient temperature.
But I am sure even at say 0C or 32F ambient temperature, the same normal (high) oil pressure allowance I will get, because even at hotter 53C to 58C / 127 to 136F 2nd time normal (high) oil pressure allowance is given.
. AUG 2022. WARM START. Coolant Temp 71C / 160F. OIL SOLENOID NOT DEFEATED.
Well done, very thorough research.
I unplugged my 2014 E63 4matic and drove it for around 400 miles.
My engine has a check valve in the block but the early stile chain guide tensioners.
For quite a few years now I experienced short start up rattle when engine was refired and still warm. Apparently exactly like you tested it.
Guess what, I haven't heard the rattle since I pulled the plug.
More oil flow and pressure feed the tensioner fast enough to keep the system quiet.
Besides that, I always monitored the oil and water temps closely and noticed that under low to medium RPM, the water temperature has dropped significantly lower, compared to before.
I have no explanation why that is but it does the engine and all the plastic hoses good.
So I keep it unplugged.
Thank you for doing this test for all of us who don't have the means.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by S-Prihadi
...So the allowance of NORMAL or good high pressure oil during a cold start seems to be coolant temperature based, at least for the 2nd allowance it is so obvious which is coolant temp 53C to 58C / 127 to 136F.and worth 1:30 ish second for my ambient temperature.
The first allowance of NORMAL or good high pressure oil during a cold star is approx for 35 seconds immediately when engine started.
I can't simulate any cooler than my 25C ambient temperature. But I am sure even at say 0C or 32F ambient temperature, the same normal (high) oil pressure allowance I will get, because even at hotter 53C to 58C / 127 to 136F 2nd time normal (high) oil pressure allowance is given.
This would kinda shoot holes in Tasos argument that disconnecting the solenoid somehow hurts the oil and/or oil pump.
Well done, very thorough research.
I unplugged my 2014 E63 4matic and drove it for around 400 miles.
My engine has a check valve in the block but the early stile chain guide tensioners.
For quite a few years now I experienced short start up rattle when engine was refired and still warm. Apparently exactly like you tested it.
Guess what, I haven't heard the rattle since I pulled the plug.
More oil flow and pressure feed the tensioner fast enough to keep the system quiet.
Besides that, I always monitored the oil and water temps closely and noticed that under low to medium RPM, the water temperature has dropped significantly lower, compared to before.
I have no explanation why that is but it does the engine and all the plastic hoses good.
So I keep it unplugged.
Thank you for doing this test for all of us who don't have the means.
You know these tensioners are frequent service parts, they leak internal pressure. Your best bet is to have them replaced 60kMi.
This will give your ECU a chance to time HPFP valve properly. With limp tensioners, that is impossible.
Glad you enjoy the much improved heat removal. Also less friction helps normalize superheat production.
You're going to enjoy how the engine starts up and keeps improving while your ECU/TCU best in-class smart firmwares are tuning perfect timings for responsive power.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 01-06-2024 at 07:08 PM.
======
ADD INFO : This is M276.820 3.0 Turbo engine and is only 329HP of E400 W212, not M278 or M157.
JettaRed engine is M276.825 3.0 Turbo but at 367HP I believe. SL400 chassis.
======
OIL SOLENOID NOT DEFEATED.
Engine at ambient temperature already, 30-32C and been OFF like 24 hours. So this is a COLD START of the day.
First +-35 seconds of the cold start, ECM does not operate oil solenoid, ECM wants higher pressure and faster oil distribution.
If engine is already warm, the ECM will immediately trigger oil solenoid to reduce oil pressure at start.
10% duty cycle to oil solenoid means OFF. Oil pressure not lowered by ECM.
70% duty cycle or higher means oil solenoid "ON", oil pressure solenoid will reduce oil pressure. Lowest duty cycle as "ON", I seen is like 76%.
Aug 2022. COLD START. Ambient temp read by OBD2 is 29C / 84F. Coolant temp 30C / 86F. OIL SOLENOID NOT DEFEATED. https://youtu.be/YUzW6ismhhQ
Actually the ECM for the 2nd time allow higher oil pressure ( Solenoid OFF, duty cycle 10% ) even at idling, see minute 2:00 to 3:33 , coolant temp at 53C / 127F when at minute 2:00.
By 03:33 minute coolant temp already at 58C / 136F.
. SEPT 2023. COLD START, 2nd video. Oil solenoid power diverted to 2 x 3.4 watts bulb as a method to defeat and not get DTC for oil solenoid.
Bulbs dim is 10% duty cycle, means oil solenoid is OFF as per ECM command, so normal good high pressure.
Bulbs bright is 70% or higher duty cycle, means oil solenoid is supposedly to be ON and reduce pressure. https://youtu.be/9uqSB28ZQ5c
Video time code starts exactly with engine start.
Ambient Temp at engine first start was 31.5C / 88.7F at front bumper sensor . Coolant temp was 30C / 86F.
ECM allows normal high oil pressure, see bulbs are dim, up to video time code 36 seconds. So 36 seconds allowance of normal high oil pressure when at cold start. Coolant temp by now 40.5C / 105F
At video time code 2:00 , for the 2nd time ECM allows high oil pressure while at idle, bulbs dim. Coolant temp by now 52.5C / 126F.
This high pressure allowance is until 03:35 when EMC reduce oil pressure again.Bulbs bright. Coolant by now 58.50C / 137F.
The difference between this 2nd cold start video to the 1st one is, during 2nd video time code 2:00 to 03:35 I did reverse the car a bit and at 03:24 onward I was revving the engine to 1,600 RPM.
ECM doesn't care, it still keep allowing higher oil pressure.
So the allowance of NORMAL or good high pressure oil during a cold start seems to be coolant temperature based, at least for the 2nd allowance it is so obvious which is coolant temp 53C to 58C / 127 to 136F.and worth
1:30 ish second for my ambient temperature.
The first allowance of NORMAL or good high pressure oil during a cold star is approx for 35 seconds immediately when engine started.
I can't simulate any cooler than my 25C ambient temperature.
But I am sure even at say 0C or 32F ambient temperature, the same normal (high) oil pressure allowance I will get, because even at hotter 53C to 58C / 127 to 136F 2nd time normal (high) oil pressure allowance is given.
This would kinda shoot holes in Tasos argument that disconnecting the solenoid somehow hurts the oil and/or oil pump.
Well, since the oil solenoid operation 101 is written in the software, we can only know when we do test them and test it under various operating condition.
So far I can only log "properly" with duty cycle information or triggering information of oil solenoid..... while engine is stationary.
It will be nice to be able to log under dynamic real use on the road condition on oil solenoid operation commanded by ECM in respond of our foot commanding throttle body for more power,
which Master Tasos is correct , it is not simply under 3,500RPM oil solenoid in operation for lowering oil pressure when car on the road, there are times ECM will trigger normal/high oil pressure
based on engine load or throttle body opening even when lower than 3,500 RPM
I was looking at Banks Gauge module with ability to record duty cycle but none exist, Banks only has module able to read turbo charger shaft speed , so it is frequency pulses probably.
This one : https://bankspower.com/products/5-ch...ter-supergauge
I wanted one for logging radiator fan PWM command actually.
LOG IS FROM ========= M276.820 3.0 Turbo engine============
This is as close as I can get to see oil solenoid is allowed to operate or give normal high oil pressure when still under 3,500 RPM.
The oil solenoid is this log 11 is un-touched , as-is.. So we can see what MB software boys program for the oil pressure based on engine power demand when still below 3,500 RPM.
5Hz = 5 data points per second. Actual ambient temperature is actually 32C and not 35C. The fuel stop always heat soaked the front bumper temp sensor and aftercooler cooling system.
Marker B, at engine RPM 1,624 is tranny at 6th gear. There is always some torque converter slip when tranny is in the process changing gears.
At 481 second :
Marker B region is when my foot BA-Accelerator Pedal E change from 45.9% to 72.2%.
Marker region A is the result of marker B with 0.2 second lag, the M-Throttle Commanded an/or L - Absolute Throttle Position then changes from 45.5% to 60.8% ( and/or 58%)
At this point in time engine oil pressure is still being regulated by oil solenoid to be low at +-28 PSI.
At 482 second or 1 second later.....
Marker C region is when tranny drop gear again to 4th gear. So from 6th gear to 4th gear took a slow 1 second.
RPM at 2,856 when at 4th gear.
When at marker region C, ECM then decided to allow higher oil pressure while only at 2,856 RPM, which we can see also at marker D region.
At marker D region oil pressure shoots up from 35 to 48 PSI and then 52 PSI.
So indeed ECM allows higher engine oil pressure well before 3,500 RPM, but the process is quite slow.
How bad mechanically it is to create pressure surge by approx 25-30 PSI in 0.6 seconds when oil solenoid suddenly allows higher oil pressure to occur ?
One must ask the oil pump designer. My simple mind does not like pressure surge of near double and of such speed increase.
=========================
Technical notes:
01. Engine oil temperature is using K thermocouple at the engine oil pressure sensor metric to imperial thread adapter. So it is skin temperature of the sensor and not wet in oil temperature sensor.
Skin temperature sensing is decently accurate but takes a bit longer in response time if fast changes occurs. Caution must be taken when a skin temperature reading is choosen, the K thermocouple tip has to be insulated
to keep heat in and not being cooled down by air flow from radiator fan air exhausted into engine bay. Since I am in the tropics, I have no worry of engine bay ( underhood ) temperature able to be cooler than 75C / 167F when
ambient temp at 30 - 32C / 86 - 90F.
====================================
NEXT.......... If oil solenoid is defeated and the command to it diverted to the 2 x 3.4 watts bulb, on the road test. Log 29.
Have a look at the oil pressure vs RPM, while car is on the move.
This is a much cooler night time test and not hot day time of the log 11 which was also a 10 hour engine run last leg.
This night time cooler ambient temperature test does not have heat soaking the engine from fuel stop and is under 1.5 hours total run. So a very nice parameter for the engine in my city.
This highway is the least busy highway at 10PM, in entire Jakarta.
Hope this information can be useful for comparison to M278 and M157 oil pressure profile, when solenoid is as-is untouched and someone soon logging them.
Last edited by S-Prihadi; 01-07-2024 at 04:04 AM.
Reason: typo
I would like to add about oil pressure sensing port prepared by MB.
01. I honestly do not know if it is before of after the oil filter, I believe it is after the oil filter. But someone need to verify this.
02. The oil pressure at the VVT sprockets is not as high as the oil pressure sensing port, that is a guarantee.
I only have this oil pressure data from Isuzu designed diesel engine made by a Chinese company, and not MB petrol engine.
Attached is a white paper from a VVT manufacturer, Schaeffler.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by S-Prihadi
======
ADD INFO : This is M276.820 3.0 Turbo engine and is only 329HP of E400 W212, not M278 or M157. JettaRed engine is M276.825 3.0 Turbo but at 367HP I believe. SL400 chassis.
======
Nope, factory output for my 2015 M276.825 is still 329HP. But, I have a tune.
01-03-2024, 08:53 PM
