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Before I retired, I observed other vehicles with an issue similar, when the car would stall no CEL, I had a first gen Snapon Modis was brand new at the time so that was between 2005 and 2008 when I owned it, running live data, CEL would pop up when the fault occurred then immediately disappear. These were some of the hardest faults to find as you never got to see what code as it would not retain the code in KAM, so reading manufacture data and schematics and testing everything was a must. One ended up to be rodents chewed on wires under battery above transmission, another was a previously repaired collision where harness to PCM was not put back properly and rubbed the frame till bare wires resulted and was intermittently shorting the bare wires, another was a brand new crankshaft position sensor from Toyota dealer, another shop had installed and two other shops gave up trying to fix including dealer, hours of scope captures on all related sensors, the offending sensor was eventually found by comparing known good captures from Pico forums, otherwise would have easily passed any inspection yet would have continued to stall.
Of course many other reasons to stall, I mainly told these to show the extent of non normal stalls can occur and the hours spent tracking down that which was not obvious. Like others have said, the issue may be there already, unplugging just amplifies the fault to the point of stall, but may not be the root cause, it could be the software reacting, but too many variables, especially having a tune, which makes diagnostics much harder, but more testing is required. For all we know, the PCM may have oil in it from wicking in harness, and when unplugged, the PCM looking for an amp draw of the solenoid but end up causing unwanted complications due to oil intrusion and shuts engine down on purpose. Probably not, but it could happen.
Testing and information to prove theory of fault is the only sure way of fixing fault, because then you can not only prove the fix but guarantee the fix without doubt. No guesses or throwing parts at it, wasting time and money, possibly making matters worse.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by Lotty
maybe you just need the connector with pins instead of the dummy and get the same result. Can u try it?
Nope. The ECU needs to see the solenoid or it will throw the code.
BTW, all of this has been discussed previously in one form or another. Have you read through all the previous posts and linked threads? If your head has NOT exploded or you have NOT lost your mind, then the answer is "No".
Surya, is this capture after solenoid delete, right?
- What kind of oil viscosity grade are you running lately in Jakarta??
Here we can learn similarities between multiports and GDI at cold startup. ECU rushes into low RPM in open loop
Yes it is after oil solenoid defeated, but the high RPM duration at COLD start strategy is the same even when oil solenoid not defeated.
I am running same old same old Mobil 1 0W-40. Oil of choice to 229.5 standard is a very limited choice in my country.
Either Mobil 1 or Liqui Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40 which you know I have tested and dislike its oil pressure at high oil temperature.
I find it interesting the M157 is having like only 30 seconds higher RPM above Idle for its COLD start strategy.
I thought same MED177 ECU family would do same COLD start strategy.
=========
Below log is before oil solenoid defeat : Same 50 seconds higher than idle RPM is the strategy.
This is new oil just filled up after I drained the Liquid Moly, and then back to Mobil 1. That is why you see the shaky shaky oil pressure and a bit of delay, oil filling up the cooler and oil filter takes time after each oil change.
Here you can see the as-is untouched oil solenoid is given a COLD START strategy too by ECM, which is the high oil pressure of the first 35 ish seconds at every COLD engine start.
Prihadi; on mine the high rpm/load for 30 seconds is just enough to get the O2's working, which I think is the whole point for emissions reasons. Other than that I don't see any point in doing it longer or shorter. I think of it more as a thermal stress test for misc parts, and super annoying.
I probably mentioned I killed that function on mine because I both hate it and consider it rude to wake the neighbors before 5AM. Starting it normally, cold idle ~700, it takes the O2's take 90sec to 5 min to kick on. I think the time diff is due to what the fuel trims happened to be when I turned it off?
My eng rarely gives me a code for the oil solenoid, so either it rarely does, or it goes away on it's own pretty quick. It's been disconnected for a couple months and I can only recall seeing the code maybe five times? I check before I shutdown, almost every time, so ~100 checks since I unplugged.
Yes it is after oil solenoid defeated, but the high RPM duration at COLD start strategy is the same even when oil solenoid not defeated.
I am running same old same old Mobil 1 0W-40. Oil of choice to 229.5 standard is a very limited choice in my country.
Either Mobil 1 or Liqui Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40 which you know I have tested and dislike its oil pressure at high oil temperature.
I find it interesting the M157 is having like only 30 seconds higher RPM above Idle for its COLD start strategy.
I thought same MED177 ECU family would do same COLD start strategy.
=========
Below log is before oil solenoid defeat : Same 50 seconds higher than idle RPM is the strategy.
This is new oil just filled up after I drained the Liquid Moly, and then back to Mobil 1. That is why you see the shaky shaky oil pressure and a bit of delay, oil filling up the cooler and oil filter takes time after each oil change.
Here you can see the as-is untouched oil solenoid is given a COLD START strategy too by ECM, which is the high oil pressure of the first 35 ish seconds at every COLD engine start.
Master Surya:
-- Does your M276-TT have twin HPFP with quad lobes: 2x4 or 1x4 ?
Then you have not gotten your money worth out of our MOD discovery yet -- See incentives at the bottom
Right now you only benefit from unlimited cylinder oiling and normal cooling but not much from good VVT timings. We can remedy that easily.
Let's not complicate this...:
Your engine VVT's NEED HIGHER VISCOSITY TO WORK BETTER.
A 0W-40 oil is wasting your engine excellent low end torque mixtures.
I guarantee you, whatever 10w-40 you run in Jakarta, you won't be looking back at a 0w under tropical heat doing WOT's.
Oil experts are gonna yell at you
I can't find a great Motul in 10w-40 ... only 5w-40 so here is an available selection : Oil candidates in 10w-40 viscosity
> Engine Relies On Viscosity:
Not to offend anyone, everyone's welcome to keep their favorite oil. I am just shining the light on opportunities discovered on my MOD Journey.
We are all familiar how this engine response sucks on 0w40, right?
We've seen how sensitive it is to oil pressure, yes?
> WHAT DOES THAT TELL US....
-- We know that near RPM all that's available is low pressure.
-- Away from idle where our opportunity for enhancement are to use with pump pressure.
-- With MOD we get earlier pressure increase with an improved pressure slope compared to stock.
With former 0w40 around 1300.RPM = BAD!!
With my current 5w40 around 800.RPM = NICE!
With future 10w40 around 650. RPM = NICER??
Oil viscosity is a big deal for enhanced performance
With good oil viscosity the ECU is able to jockey the VVT position at lower RPM.
> VVT -> ECU+TCU:
The mixtures around 1500.RPM are very important for engine-tranny driveability. WOT not affected
When ECU is confused so is TCU. Everything you do to please ECU, TCU gives it back in output performance.
-- When the mixture below 1500RPM is unreliable, the shifts are unpredictable and hardly coordinated.
-- As a result gear 1,2,3 act weird and ultra short.
-- Currently my engine holds 1st and 2nd up to 2000.RPM with normal throttle demand. Very co-ordinated shifts are executed with throttle matching RPM. Not sloppy slippery shifts.
-- Stock used to shift them back to back and end up in the wrong gear for demand.
> VVT ROAD TESTING:
With limited 0w-40 viscosity, you can feel the VVT shifting position outside idle when available pressure become sufficient.
I am sure a lot of you noticed this new behavior with MOD. You feel a bit of fish-bites jerking outside idle.
Accelerate gently from stop like you are driving in 30mph traffic. Repeat accelerations from stop.
Can you feel the engine sort of multiple hesitations ratcheting back to back each time at around 1300RPM - That's your VVT actuating late as viscosity allows it to unlock.
Well that's ridiculously not good, we are going to do better. This should be done at much lower RPM.
> VVT LOCK PIN:
Above we just saw how our VVT wake up from low pressure condition. Ultimately we want that to happen ASAP near idle for better timings.
There not much we can do about idle pressure. VVT do get locked when pressure does not allow ECU to shift camshaft timings and counter the steep HPFP LOBES.
> VVT PIN STRESS:
I am not concerned with VVT lock pin wear with MOD.
VVT gears do lock based on lack of pressure.
I think when we lock lower, we have extra brownie points compared to stock because we do not drive below 1000.RPM: reduced lock counts.
When lock pressure is met at 1500 RPM, that is within driving RPM ie. more frequent locking in/out.
Effective oil viscosity matters.
++++ INCENTIVES +++
Whith better oil viscosity cold start RPM is lower and shorter. As soon as ECU is satisfied with VVT pressure it rushes towards low idle in open loop cold lambda. That's is truly amazing for us who grew up on carburators.
With stiff tensioners for exact camshaft timings, the ECU times the HPFP proportioning valve such that rattlesnake injection phases out as engine heats up. Your engine deserves that badge.
With perfectly timed camshafts and smooth VVT actuation enabled, the chassis kicks butt right from idle.
The above effectively cancel the legendary lag for you.
++++ MUST HAVES ++++
Tips to benefit from normal oil pressure performances:
Disabled oil pump solenoid
5W40 or 10W40 viscosity grade
Newish chain tensioners
Somewhat clean lambda sensors
Reduced blow-by with sealed rings
Somewhat smooth engine
MBWorld active account
++++ From VVT to TENSIONER +++
Ok, we've seen practically that tensioner require oil viscosity to start shifting the bank-1 intake camshaft. yes, clear ?
Then we can be concerned with tensioners oil stopping the camshafts fwd motion.
Having VVT on their top game, guarantee we also have stiff tensioners, HPFP + camshafts valves can't squeeze through leaky seal.
Having smooth cam rotation is a huge deal for timings: Win-Win!
+++ HANDS ON TEST+++
-- Use better oil viscosity when you think your engine condition has recovered enough from carbonated rings.
-- Test drive your engine to figure what RPM your VVT begins actuating.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-03-2024 at 06:24 PM.
Once i change my oil last year too 5w40 Shell GTL AP SN+ (SP) i get code P06DA00. Before i used Petronas S/7000 0w40 Sn w/o any Code on Scanner. Maybe it's a coincidence.
every time i check my used oil filter by service. I cut it and the filter was every time clean.
2moro i will go to Mercedes and buy some stuffs Dummy is ready soon and will upload some pics to install the dummy.
Prihadi; that cold start can be anything they want, and they do differ somewhat eng to eng. There are a variety of preset conditions in the ECU, so apparently, rather than set it manually, they can say this eng gets Config #12 for idle. There are 30 different possible preset idle configs for my car, just for idle in neutral, 30 for in gear, plus others that override those when cold, and more than can override those. Of course they can change any of those if they want, just like I do. I was unable to find the specs for your car, cams included, but I'm sure someone somewhere has it so I'll keep an eye out.
I set all my idle settings the same so it doesn't matter what overrides what or any other funky stuff going on. They also base the cold rpms on time and temp, no oil involved in idle. VVT has it's own conditions, which I showed you. The only oil involved in VVT is a PID control for it that adjusts for oil temp changes between 14 and 248F. The adjustment is so small I don't even know why they bother. I adjusted that out so there is no change with temp, and lowered the PI response to slow it down a bit.
I too am surprised you're running 0wt oil. My cold wt is more like 20-25, and you're warmer than I am. My cold start is usually ~60F, that's 15C for that newfangled measuring system you use
Cali, I can never tell if you're serious or not when it comes to this oil solenoid.
Since you brought up oil wt, I wonder if people will chime in to state; "Use what the Mfg suggests" "Don't use additives" "You think you're smarter than the Benz engineers" etc etc.
I will stick to Mobil 1 0-40W. Easiest for me.
The 0W is not important to me, what is most important is the Vicosity Index which Mobil 1 is 186, which is awesome.
That tells the actual viscosity at 40C and 100C and how good/stable it is.
I do not have fish bite misfire whatsoever and my throttle to tranny downshift modulation been improved ever since the new all 4 oxygen sensors.
I can choose to drop 1 or 2 or 3 gear down from 7th as I please with ease of foot modulation on throttle, with great accuracy and speed. I love it.
This car today at 39,000KM is better than in May 2018 when I first got it at 10,000KM in terms of throttle to tranny response in E mode.
Chev,
Thanks for the IDLE information
I guess MB chooses M276 3.0 to have that extra 20 seconds 900RPM idle over a V8.
After unplugg should be 4 bar right? Can i test it with scanner how many bar i got after unplugging?
Your engine is M133, this one ...correct ? : https://www.glaowners.com/attachment...ine-pdf.27120/
You have no oil pressure devices, so you cant read any oil pressure information. Sorry.
You must install a stand alone oil pressure sensor and gauge.
I will stick to Mobil 1 0-40W. Easiest for me.
The 0W is not important to me, what is most important is the Vicosity Index which Mobil 1 is 186, which is awesome.
That tells the actual viscosity at 40C and 100C and how good/stable it is.
I do not have fish bite misfire whatsoever and my throttle to tranny downshift modulation been improved ever since the new all 4 oxygen sensors.
I can choose to drop 1 or 2 or 3 gear down from 7th as I please with ease of foot modulation on throttle, with great accuracy and speed. I love it.
This car today at 39,000KM is better than in May 2018 when I first got it at 10,000KM in terms of throttle to tranny response in E mode.
Chev,
Thanks for the IDLE information
I guess MB chooses M276 3.0 to have that extra 20 seconds 900RPM idle over a V8.
.
.
As I understand it in basic terms, I know there are many more factors involved, but speaking plainly, lower viscosity = faster flow, higher viscosity = slower flow.
As I understand it in basic terms, I know there are many more factors involved, but speaking plainly, lower viscosity = faster flow, higher viscosity = slower flow.
Yes Rick: you viscosity law is right on !
Our engine oil is used to advance or retard the camshaft. Bank1 Intake has tremandous forces against it. All other 3 camshafts have easy drive.
low viscosity for faster flow vs. higher viscosity yield slower flow
The Oil viscosity characteristics are directly affected by heat a great deal hence multi-grade formula.
With low viscosity the ECU is unable to position VVT gear where it should be. See previous post.
With low viscosity the chain Tensioner allows B1Intake camshaft to jerk ahead using chain slack.
It's a big deal because the affected range from 750 to 2000.RPM is the range used in city and Hwy on high gear.
We remember spongy accelerator pedal with stock limited oil. vs. the rock hard accelerator response MOD provides, yes ?
I found something really obvious to some:
the VVT + Tensioners are affected by viscosity.
Without sufficient viscosity the engine has a weak bottom end. Many ppl are stuck right there because of mismatched oil grade.
This is entirely caused by the ECU disliking the jittery camshaft timings. This is easily fixed by a better oil viscosity.
Master Surya says he doesn't like his Moly selection because viscosity is unstable across temperature. That's a real viscosity issue, just what we are looking at solving here!
We are looking for an oil that can give us a strong W40 viscosity for about 5kMi.
Most oils warm viscosity is affected by their low viscosity index.
Meaning a 10w40 has a more stable viscosity than a 0w40... pretty obvious now, right?
Let's test what reality shows:
I came from the popular 0w40 then a great MOTUL 5w40 then going to try a Moly:10w40 then perhaps a 15w40 afterwards if the 10w40 Moly is too weak.
Practical test results are what speak the truth. My quiet luxury trim now accelerates in 2nd and 3rd like a sporty Bimmer.
None of these steps are rocket science - Now you know how power is disabled by OIL.
I proved that a M276-NA in good shape can run enhanced timings given proper viscosity.
Please PM me if you have a good 2x HPFP and want to try 5W40, 10W40 viscosities as well.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-04-2024 at 11:01 PM.
Our engine oil is used to advance or retard the camshaft. Bank1 Intake has tremandous forces against it. All other 3 camshafts have easy drive.
low viscosity for faster flow vs. higher viscosity yield slower flow
The Oil viscosity characteristics are directly affected by heat a great deal hence multi-grade formula.
With low viscosity the ECU is unable to position VVT gear where it should be. See previous post.
With low viscosity the chain Tensioner allows B1Intake camshaft to jerk ahead using chain slack.
It's a big deal because the affected range from 750 to 2000.RPM is the range used in city and Hwy on high gear.
We remember spongy accelerator pedal with stock limited oil. vs. the rock hard accelerator response MOD provides, yes ?
I found something really obvious to some:
the VVT + Tensioners are affected by viscosity.
Without sufficient viscosity the engine has a weak bottom end. Many ppl are stuck right there because of mismatched oil grade.
This is entirely caused by the ECU disliking the jittery camshaft timings. This is easily fixed by a better oil viscosity.
Master Surya says he doesn't like his Moly selection because viscosity is unstable across temperature. That's a real viscosity issue, just what we are looking at solving here!
We are looking for an oil that can give us a strong W40 viscosity for about 5kMi.
Most oils warm viscosity is affected by their low viscosity index.
Meaning a 10w40 has a more stable viscosity than a 0w40... pretty obvious now, right?
Let's test what reality shows:
I came from the popular 0w40 then a great MOTUL 5w40 then going to try a Moly:10w40 then perhaps a 15w40 afterwards if the 10w40 Moly is too weak.
Practical test results are what speak the truth. My quiet luxury trim now accelerates in 2nd and 3rd like a sporty Bimmer.
None of these steps are rocket science - Now you know how power is disabled by OIL.
I proved that a M276-NA in good shape can run enhanced timings given proper viscosity.
Please PM me if you have a good 2x HPFP and want to try 5W40, 10W40 viscosities as well.
I’d do an oil analysis every 3 to 5k with the heavier oil, make sure you’re still lubricating all the bearing efficiency.
The bearings benefit from viscous padding. The ECU uses the heated thermostat to dial engine temperature hence the oil viscosity. Bosch guys on the MB team.
How many of you can contribute experience and recomendation using a viscosity 10w40 oil or higher ?
Not long ago I thought every great oil company produced all viscosities - It is totally the oposite: every brand has its own target niche.
MOTUL 5W40 is such a well formulated oil, I really wish they had a 15w40 product. I haven't seen that...
I really think AIR is the enemy of hydraulics - Again nothing new to most of us.
The accelerator is so responsive it moves 2Tons hunk of steel as if weightless from 900.RPM - With a twin turbo the transition must be glorious.
Prihadi; I checked idle (stock tune) at one cold start (70F) and it went to 1300, then drops slowly/steadily to 1100 by ~40sec. At that time it dropped to 900 in ~2sec, and the spark retard (-30deg) stops. That loud mess is the O2 & Cat heating mode. The O2's kicked in at 28sec. It stayed at 900 until ~2:10, then droped to 650 in ~2sec, which is normal neutral idle.
When I set it it starts at 1000rpm for ~30sec (spark 0deg), then drops to 900 and slowly drops to 700, which is my neutral idle speed.
Regarding oil; I no doubt mentioned before that I see 0wt as a bad idea, pushed on us by the EPA. Now I feel like everyone is brainwashed to think 10wt is thick. I'm not saying it isn't good oil, I'm just saying I believe most others are better. For example, you wouldn't run 0-16 would you? What if I put some corn starch in it to make it 0-40? Because in my mind that's all 0-40 is. For warm areas like us I just don't see the point. It's a band-aid fix for people in very cold climates, and we don't need to make that sacrifice. And think about cold starts, where I have more oil left on parts and passages, and what's on those parts is much better. I suppose it could be extreme enough that my passages and filter stay full and 0wt all drains out. Maybe a stretch, but at some point in viscosity it would be true.
Fyi my SAE 60wt (actual oil) has a VI of 168. Not far off yet a much better oil.
OldMan; Ha! You were thinking it weren't you! :p
For the oil and VVT; if both end up at 40wt then I don't see the difference.
Thinner viscosity will flow faster, but makes less pressure, and more rpm dependent. So the only way to tell which is better is to measure psi at the VVT itself and calculate if it'll be faster or not, which nobody will do. If I had to guess I'd say the thinner would move the VVT faster, but again, it isn't really thinner is it? Or just look at the cam position data, like do, except it's so fast I wouldn't be able to see such a small change. Just like I was unable to see any change with the solenoid unplugged. If you recall, I adjusted my cams to already be in the run position, no idle mode to transition from. Cant be any faster than that, and it does not make more power. I do still need to lock the cams at idle and see how it runs like that. I suppose I could also make them change to each extreme back n forth really fast to see what that does. I bet that gets a response...
The cam can't be jittery unless there's air in the VVT.
The ECU can put the cams where they need to be, regardless of viscosity, but again it's not different is it?
Why would the ECU care if the cams are off target for a few milliseconds? What do you think the ecu is doing in this crisis?
I'm still at a loss how anyone sees a power gain, but if it is VVT then my eng is completely immune to whatever problem others have.
I know you know 0-40 is more stable, which is another example of why I can never tell if you're serious or not. I feel like 1 April will roll around and you'll tell everyone you were joking about this whole thread. Do I have to wait until April?
I am here to help with what easy enhancements are practically possible. I can't waste anyone's time arguing how what I've accomplished is impossible. It's big yet extremely basic.
People who understand know where to go and how to get there.
Chevota:
Recently, I helped diagnose the faults in your chassis reports. I recall the engine had severe case of imbalanced cyl. contribution. This needs work.
The irregular rotation prevents getting any better timings. Nothing else is possible until the ECU gets satisfied by smooth timings: "Nothing less, nothing more!" - (TM).
There is a growing need for GUIDANCE TO SEAL RINGS in engines without cylinder damages.
This contribution could be a genuine help for on-boarding mod'ers stuck in conditions you are familiar with.
I have no bone or any unbalanced engine to test this topic. My engine cleaned and sealed by itself given normal cylinder spray.
I have no practical opinion about using special cleaning seafoam type of cleaners. I do like "high mileage" oil formula.
Try a gamut of different products aimed at the same problem for progress. Treat individual cylinders through the plug wells.
It's great fun to get amazing results.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-05-2024 at 02:49 PM.
03-02-2024, 08:16 AM
Dummy is ready soon and will upload some pics to install the dummy.
