CaliBenzDriver

Collecting engine data is a labor of love to produce meaningful results. A ramp from idle is as good as it gets to watch numbers react under ECU control.

Surya has already produced many great graphs that led us to understand part of this topic.

Most data are a little bit skewed, not entirely perfect but still really meaningful. You oil temp thermocouple is perfect to compare with more of its own data and not factory sensor. It will show the same exact trend with slightly different numbers. No problem!

Right now the unique opportunity is to use your TT instrumentation as a MOD-1 BASELINE before you experiment sealing your cylinders with a more stable "MB Approved" oil of your choice.

Collect necessary "original" data with Mob1.0W-40 before changing lubricant.


> What we know is related:

• CPS position vs. RPM
• Oil pressure + Temp vs. RPM
• Coolant vs. RPM vs. speed
• ....

> What we don't know yet:

• VVT Solenoid PWM vs RPM. (pressure correlation)
• Intake MAP (+ MAF) vs. RPM (seal correlation)
• Brake booster vacuum at idle (seal correlation)
• ....

-- We are interested to measure at what RPM does what oil spray cools pistons at driving RPM under operating temp?

-- Other questions like: how much additional torque can sealed cylinders produce?

-- Other question: how to spot a good/lazy oil/coolant thermostats ? (High heat can waste/prevent progress).

-- Other question is what oil with stable viscosity are suitable for MOD useage?

Data analysis is the nerdy corner of engine transformations and MS is the chief!


++++ Limited viscosity = Limited improvements
-- Ppl in MOD-1 with thin dry-lube oil still get limited spray-cooling and limited engine improvement from unchanged rings condition. MOD-1 is not really a good place to stand because of limitations.
It's cooling above 2750.Rpm which is better that 3500.Rpm but far above where necessary around 1500.Rpm.


-- What would be really helpful is to compile a short list of recommended MOD-2.0 oils.
All "MB Approved" oils are good but more viscous "Approved" oil MOD better than other. Limited choices.

CaliBenzDriver

The pro is the viscosity is guaranteed to spray-cool very well and wet clean rings should seal really well at the same time.

Simplicity is an attractive use case to test higher grade viscosity. No uncharted oil blending involved. It sounds like a no-brainer upgrade...

I wonder is the VVT PWM positioning is compliant with high viscosity ??

What's your driveability experience like with the AMSOIL Signature 5W50??


A AMS/LM- 0W50 (lighter than 5w50) may run closer to "0W45" after 1500.Mi useage... a goodbway to get to close MOD2-1 target

Cifdig

im using a pretty accurate logger . I log everything . Stft/ltft, cylinder knock, timing . You name it o log it . Actual real live data . I can assure you I'd see it if something was off . Tuning 1k hp requires tedious time and a consistent running engine. If there were any deviations in my cam timing we would spot it instantly. My oil temps are consistent and stable .

It's accurate enough to see small deviation in timing peak based off my intake temps and engine temps after 5 back ti back hits. The oil viscosity being a 50 even 60 weight would be perfectly fine I've done them both .

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I think the problem is that you don't have the AMG menu that displays the oil temperature, do you? All I was trying to do was to determine the accuracy of the oil temperature displayed in the AMG menu.

Do you know which live data item provides the oil temperature in XENTRY. I tried looking in both the ME and IC modules.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

@S-Prihadi remember when I measured my oil pressure with the solenoid disabled that peak pressure was around 50 psi when stationary? It is good to see your numbers follow closely my observed oil pressure using a gauge.

CaliBenzDriver

Your logger gives you amazing power to look at historical chassis data. This is the only way to see good decisions made. The ECU own data acquisition sensors is fairly accurate to compute runtime parameters.

-- Can you help us identify what your data are showing. I am unable to read the graphs without names/scales


rich engine: lean trims

-- Your -20 LT-trims being maxed lean... what sort of pedal response during gradual accelerations??
Your ECU must be piggy backed with the real boss computer
At some point during WOT Lambda sensors are simply disreagarded and mapped.

-- Do you have bigger injectors or reprogrammed the resulting ECU is leaning out hard ?

-- Do you have your camshaft positions logged?

-- What about pump solenoid status??

-- "Running a W60 oil perfectly fine":
for what kind of driving application?

++++ I forgot: pressure !
What sort of pressure do you get running with w50 or w60 blends?
Nitus needs good cooling, no more burning oil ✌️

kevm14

I want API SP. That is still SN.

kevm14

I disagree. Surya showed 34-35 psi @ 1200 rpm in hot conditions. That is plenty to run the piston squirters, so nothing is "dry." And he's using 0W-40.

S-Prihadi

I never seen ENGINE oil temp data on my Xentry. Tranny oil temp, yes, sure. Perhaps if we are in developer mode or use Vendiamo, its there.
But me IT dummy , I will not enter the unknown. I have the Vendiamo, BenzNinja package set.

I dont want AMG menu on my non-AMG car without the complete AMG sensor. If there is a way I can install M157 B40 33-in-1 oil sensor and my ECM can get the temperature data by some smart wizard,
and the oil di-electric data and the fine oil level increment, that I want. US$1K is fine. That sensor is US$500 ish and esxclusive to M157.
Older cars like W203 has a lower data output B40 sensor using PWM only, this B40 of M157 is LIN based, so the data should be very fine.

Cifdig

requesting vs what's actually being used . I use alot of fuel . So the tuner must request the ecu to compensate my use. What you see if just my ecu knows how much fuel I may need. During a WOT run. Doing mean that's what's actually happening . That's why there's ltft vs stft. Much more then just that but that's a completely different thread lol. Stock
injectors. My point of that post was simply the log shows much more detailed parameters but That was just a small example. Cam timing can be read very easy through even a snap on hand scanner. Exhuast and intake cam adjustments can be seen together or even separate . It will show requested timing vs actual timing. Anyone can do this with a snap on solstice scanner going to engine sub section camshaft timing for either Exhuast or intake. The slightest variables can be seen . Since I switched years ago I checked these parameters when I first made the switch but off my head I can not remember . I do remember it staying perfectly in timing regardless of the oil viscosity. I'm sure one can dig further. But there's over 7 m157 running 5-50 from stock turbo to fully worked issue free going through much less oil then with mobil 0-40 .

kevm14

Maybe the smoking gun is for a requested vs actual cam timing graph with the oil pump solenoid plugged in and unplugged. And for my issue, I continue to deal with weird surging, especially when the oil is hot. But if I graph cam timings, then I can determine if it is misbehaving adjusters or something else. Assuming the frequency of the surge would actually show up clearly in the data...

CaliBenzDriver

we looked at this recently in this thread: surges do show up clearly.
This is necessary to keep an eye on.
The stock VVT positioning shows it is affected by pressure changes.
This is not top notch! It's a slow reacting mapped data. Without GDI pump camshaft would swing around loosely but now pump pump timings depend on camshaft accuracy.

-- This is a key issue we'd like to help cancel!
- Surging/jumping the camshaft timing is room for poor mixtures... misfires.
- Derailing the HPFP timing freaks out rail control

It's important to keep an eye on VVT position before/after. I am sure we're going to see surging being gone with MOD-1/2... at least 3500.Rpm.

That helps the HPFP PROPORTIONING VALVE timings provide ECU enhanced injection control.

- VVT surging is very much like weak tensioners randomly wasting timings. This must be prestine Rolex grade for exact GDI timings.

CaliBenzDriver

yep, that's all we're after.

kevm14

I couldn't see it well on my phone but I see it now. Do we have a clear before/after though? I don't know what a known good even looks like. I don't know if HP Tuners exposes this or if it would be a code review but I have a feeling that they dumb down the cam timing error detection when the oil pump is in low pressure mode. That would really seal the deal - they KNEW it makes the timing control worse. But this is just conjecture.

kevm14

Right, but you're saying things like "MOD 1 gives dry cylinders until 3400 rpm" which is clearly not true. Did I misinterpret?

CaliBenzDriver

I am sorry this has you wondering.
It is MOD-0 "stock" that produces limited pressure up to 3400.Rpm


This in depth research was made possible by Dive Master Surya's inquisitive mind at the bottom and top side... We like reliable gear.


This MOD disables the pump solenoid to unleash low volume constraints.

MOD-0.0: on Mob1. 0w40 ~ 3400.Rpm
MOD-1.0: on Mob1. 0w40 ~ 2800.Rpm
MOD-2.0: on MOT. 5W40 ~ 2300.Rpm
MOD-2.1: on Mix. 6W42 ~ 1700.Rpm
-----------------------
(5w50/10w60 ~ 500.Rpm)

-- Below spray RPM I call this "dry-lubed" because there's no squirting so cylinders/pistons do run dry lubed by chemistry package (Solenoid is also randomly enabled ON/OFF under the stock law.).

-- The spraying is what removes heat!
-- Dry-lube disables heat removal.


--- I found that when we spray-seal cylinders and the ECU is satisfied then unheard GDI timings hands out truly amazing transformation... a great side-effect bonus for me that I can share.

TripleDown

I find this to be more than a little bit of very hypothetical conjecture. Just because the oil jets are not spraying the bottom of the pistons, does not in ANY WAY mean they are "dry".
Those jets are for additional piston cooling during extreme boost scenarios. I'd challenge you to find ANY "dry" part in the lower end of any motor with oil sloshing about.

Remove the solenoid power feed and yes, you will get full oil pressure just like cars had before these variable volume pumps. But let's not get carried away with ourselves. These pistons are not "dry" and we have zero concrete data to say that "once the solenoid is disabled your motor will last X times longer". We HOPE that it will, but we are also changing a variable in a very complex equation.

I am still on the fence until we get more senior MB techs to weigh in here. These are stupidly expensive motors to replace and even though it's pretty obvious that "more oil pressure is always better", with all that's going on in the M157 it's not 100% clear what else is affected when this solenoid is disabled.

My tech and I have been discussing this and we both agree that in theory it should cause no issues and generally help the motor with more oil pressure. But it's not like the motor is suddenly going to fall apart if we don't disconnect it either. I drive the car like a normal human (not like I stole it) and because of traffic around here I rarely get to let it off the leash.

Anyone have concrete data on how this affects the MPG ? What did MB actually save with these things ?

AMG__POWER

Anyone had any success running liquimoly molygen 5w-50? Also the blackboost coolant thermostat surely would help keep our engines cool along with this mod right?

kevm14

But he has 35 psi @ 1200 rpm with just "MOD 1" by your definition. So what does 2800 rpm represent here?

kevm14

Generally agree.

What we know is this solenoid is another component that CAN get stuck and fail (the numbers seem low but they aren't zero). Furthermore and what blew me away in the beginning is all of the benefits (some more proven than others) of unplugging even if your solenoid was working just fine. Personally I find it a stretch to believe that these oil pumps supply "too much" oil pressure (like an engine-damaging amount) so they went through the trouble of designing an oil pressure reduction system to tame it. Nonsense. There is a high pressure relief valve. Rather, I think this was a calculation of "technically, we only need 20 psi under these conditions, and 35 psi is wasted energy." I am not comfortable with living on the ragged edge just for some theoretical 0.3 mpg improvement or whatever. These oil pumps start life as a barely adequate vane-type system with an aluminum housing, and Mercedes wanted to reduce oil pressure with NO FEEDBACK on that (in almost all applications)?? No thanks.

As we have discussed, the system as designed has the following characteristics:
- Variable oil pressure with no feedback - it's just preprogrammed and goes by throttle position/load and RPM, plus coolant/oil temp.
- Piston squirters disabled generally during oil solenoid activation - is this dire? Maybe not. And under true hot idle conditions, we may not have squirter operation even with the solenoid unplugged. But there are a ton of conditions, even just cruising down the highway, where the system is in reduced oil pressure mode.
- Cam adjuster operation is reliant upon consistent oil pressure. It's jerked around all over the place with the 2 stage solenoid system. This probably exacerbates some top end issues we have seen all surrounding the cam timing system. Tensioners, check valves, adjuster slop, and ultimately cam lobe/bearing failure. I don't fully understand the failure mode here but I believe it is real. This surfaces as drivability issues on many (but not all) cars in a stock configuration. Unplugging often (but not aways) reveals improved throttle response and low speed torque. That is proof enough for me that I have no need for the oil pressure reduction mode.
- Incrementally better fuel economy?

We can and have speculated beyond these things but I believe these are core.

CaliBenzDriver

I don't think so... let's have a look at it.

All we want is to spray at driving Rpm to keep rings sealed, pistons cooled and HPFP on ticks.

We've seen 30PSI as being the spray pressure... I think MS! added that opening ball-on-spring squirters is not enough to reach actual targets.

So even though each individual squirters open at 25Psi on bench, there's a different pressure necessary to practically cool every piston all the way to #4/8 or #3/6 - That what needs to be measured.

juanmor40

I can tell you something: I consider myself extremely conservative when it comes to modify engines, and their systems. That is likely the reason (besides procrastinating) I joined around December, and not earlier (which retrospectively I should have).

I also discussed this "super-thread" with a design engineer that provides "turbo-related components" for these engines, and many other Tier-1 automotive manufacturers. His advice could be summarized as:
1 - Increasing the oil pressure up to the designed relief pressure should cause no damage, but improves the longevity of the engine overall (in particular the parts they build)
2 - he was unaware of the VVT improvements as a side-effects. I assured him, it was not a placebo effect from my side.
3 - he recommended increasing "cold oil weight" if possible but with MB-approved oils ONLY. Despite some thinking that there is no real difference between 0 or 5, yes there is. 5Wx has a different response curve from cold to hot than 0Wx at least for M1 and Motul.
4 - On the oil weight, he mentioned that I could find a 10Wx with MB approval, he confirmed their components are tested to such weights and that 10W would not harm the turbos.
5 - Be EXTREMELY careful playing with the oil-additive package, there is a specific "tuned material, surface treatment, oil additive package for each engine" (with its ranges) from the manufacturer.

On the dry-lube interpretation. I take it as "not actively lubricated", and not exactly dry. On a cold engine, the cylinder would be "approximately dry", and the ECU will force a higher RPM trying to wet the cylinder walls for a few seconds. From there on, unless we press the pedal, the oil would be doing what? : heating, perhaps some splashed oil ( which I cannot longer see with this crankshaft covers used these days) , and slowly coming back because of gravity. Perhaps some oil drips out of the wrist pins on the cylinder walls.

kevm14

I thought it was 20 psi, not 30. And anyway, he had 34-35 psi @ 1200 rpm.

CaliBenzDriver

I hear you, these cars are wholesome designs best serviced by factory trained specialists.

Mercedes products are so many things to so many people in so many diverse use cases.

Not all factory procedures have customers peace in mind. Changing oil early 5k or really early 3k is thought to be beneficial with MB Approved modern lubricants. Mixing oil additives is not recommended.

This MOD is an experiment by forward thinking individuals.

CaliBenzDriver

pls show me where you see "34-35 psi @ 1200 rpm"
this is spray-pressure from 1200.Rpm
this would turn into a strong 45Psi at 2000.Rpm
I don't think this in range for 0w40

Beware what exactly you are measuring and the meaning that it has...

"new squirters open at 22Psi, so my engine ok?"
Some of us know better... reality and theory are 2 distinct worlds.

This is experimental, go ahead test what you think is right