kevm14

On mine things seem pretty well integrated until the oil warms up fully. Then it's kind of a mixed bag.

CaliBenzDriver

You are sensing performance being limited by oil at operating temp.

It is a BIG transition for piston rings to go from dry-lubed to wet-lubed... rings are being cleaned up to seal compressions.

Both your engine block and the ECU appear to be moving along well.


When engine oil + tranny ATF climb into high heat then performance gets noticeably lumpy. This shows you first hand how closely regulated oil temps must remain.


The runaway spray RPM is a vicious cycle you want to stay on top of to preserve burning oil on partly dry pistons below 2500.RPM.

​​​​​​The performance improvement is only just the beginning of the ECU realizing it can now inject better.... patience it's all incremental.

Enjoy MOD-2.0.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

These are my usual temps when in Sport mode. Interestingly, the oil temp is usually 7°-10°F hotter when in Economy mode. Tranny temp does not go above 180°F.

CaliBenzDriver

Nice setup!
Guess why E runs hotter than S... it runs engine at lower RPM where spraying gets marginal.

I am not sure the cluster display are computed or from oil sensor. The fact oil is NOT colder than coolant leads us to believe oil is actively spray cooling your engine. A cause for celebration in sizzling hot DC summer.


> Available solutions...
- Run tranny in -S- mode for higher RPM shifts
- or manually shift into higher spraying RPM
- or find a way to spray oil at normal driving RPM.... that's what I favor for rock solid driveability.


Under good temp control the engine/tranny performance doesn't degrade when heat climbs -

To preserve stable performance from ECU, we CAN NOT let heat runaway as with MOD-0 or MOD-1.
​​​​​​
When engine begins to seriously improve, it's only the beginning of more power being handed out !
I know it seems pretty unbelievable transformation just from serious oiling.

Is this reality begining to make good sense now that you are experiencing it ??

++++ MOD-2 ++
When I saw that runaway heat dropped viscosity, I corrected it with booster shots to stay away from heat vicious loop.


+++ AMAZIN' OIL FLUFF +++
Just this morning Master Surya reminded us that fresh LM-5W40 is thinner than old Mob-0w40 that's known to be a heavy W30 perfect for dry-lube.


thin old 0w40 is better than fresh...


To that end then MANY THANKS TO JUAN for introducing me to the true oil viscosity of Mot-5w40.
It dropped my engine heat in ways I could never dreamed of so I understood what good viscosity could do.


Without some of us focused on common goals we would still be burning smokey oil and blowing up pistons as expected. Thank you all!

S-Prihadi

Jet,

Our M276.xx engines, be it the turbo version like yours and mine, or NA 3.5 Liter version ...they do not have oil temperature sensor.
The oil temperature is a software modeling oil temperature as explained in M276.8 WIS.
So be careful when using it as a reference if and when you drive the car really hard.

The only engine I know of between M276.xx , M278 and M157, only M157 has a true oil temperature sensor at the oil pan.
As for what sensors our M276.8 has, you know how familiar I am with the them physically and wiring wise.







=============






=================





+++++++++





.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I know the calculated oil temp has been brought up before. Besides displaying a value, I wonder how the ECU uses the information to make any adjustment to operating parameters. I assume that the algorithm that calculates/derives the oil temp has been tested to be accurate. I would also assume that the reported temps are not just for cosmetic purposes. But those may be a bad assumptions.

S-Prihadi

I can't comment on how accurate or how "doctored" the engine oil temperature is, if based on a software modeling.
I think at worst case scenario it is only OFF by 10-15C.

If VVT mechanism is what MB seems to be concerned about on the said software based oil temp modeling ,
I think once above true 65C / 149F engine oil temperature it is good enough to be called warm enough oil.
Most important to MB surely is the coolant temp to be within proper ranges, as to not overheat... as there is nothing anymore to do when and if the
oil cooler is cooled by the same coolant ....as long as the coolant passage inside the cooler plates are not clogged.

If the oil cooler is air cooled , that is a different story and can't be easily modeled using software, I am sure.

All you need to watch more closely is you coolant temperature.
Now, have you ever verified your digital numeric coolant temperature is a true ECM raw output...or the also "doctored-lowered" value used by Instrument Cluster for the analog needle ?
This is more important to know .

To verify : It is easy to make your engine coolant be as hot as 100C / 220F stationary, as long as your ambient is not too cold,
rev and hold it at 4,200 RPM soft limiter for approx 3 minutes after engine already warmed up to a true 85-90C.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, I am perplexed that Mercedes does not put oil pressure and oil temperature sensors in our engines (generally) since both are critical to proper and safe engine operation. Knowing the culture of Germans about being precise in what they do, I am forced to believe the calculated values are reliable.

OldManAndHisCar

While I do not disagree to a point...assuming that other folks are correct that the water temp is more important (as it cools the oil)...and, there really is no way to control one (water) and not effect the other (oil) - well, it would be a protection of a second level concern. The key concern being water temps. Monitoring both could be seen as enabling paralysis by analysis and adding to complexity of the ECU if it was trying to monitor and control both independently.

W205C43PFL

Except isn't the water temperature also fake? https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...inda-liar.html

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

It's interesting that my tranny fluid temp never exceeds 180°F (or at least displayed as such) and we know that the tranny fluid temp is a measured temperature. I need to hook up my scan tool and measure the ECU reported temps and compare them to the displayed temps in my instrument cluster. And we know the coolant temps are actual within a certain range. My coolant rarely goes above 198°F, though the displayed oil temps do spike to around 208°F. I need to take some measurements with my IR temp scanner and see if they match the display.

PeterUbers

Every product I've purchased lately I've unplugged the solenoid .... blender... roomba,.... oled tv.... it only makes sense

W205C43PFL

thesaintusa

I suspect that the transmission fluid reading is fixed at 180C until it overheats and then you get a temperature reading depicting a catastrophic situation.

Most people don't like to see the temperatures fluctuate while driving.

On my 911, the water temps were static at around 190, and programmed to not be linear. I was able to code the water temps to read 1:1 and it is impressive how much it changes under various driving loads. Does it actually change anything for me? No, but I like to know that the sensor output is being reflected in the dash. I can imaging that many drivers would freak out and be making calls/visits to the dealership if they saw the continuous fluctuations in values.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Me, too! That's amazing!

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

OK, here are some interesting observations. My car was stationary and at idle when I took these readings.

The first is tranny temp at startup. TCU reads 27°C (80.6°F), display shows 88°F. Difference of about 7°F or about 9%.




The next is coolant temp. ECU shows 79.5°C (175°F), display shows 192°F. Difference of about 17°F or about 10%.




The last is oil temp measured with two different touchless (IR) thermometers. The thermometer readings were of the oil pan at or near the drain plug. Thermometers show 186.4°F and 179°F, for an average of 182.7°F. The display shows 183°F. Difference is 0.3°F or about 0.2%!





So, according to my empirical observations, the oil temperature display is far more accurate than the two systems that have actual sensors!

Hmmm, what shall we do?

W205C43PFL

Those are indeed interesting observations

S-Prihadi

If you log your coolant temperature raw data via OBD2, you will get more surprises sometime when the MAP controlled thermostat in M276, M278 and M157 starts to take advantage
of a cooler ambient temperature. Assuming you are at 30-34C ( 86 - 93F ) ambient temp and then rain comes or you go to higher altitude and get cooler ambient temperature say by 5 - 10C.

This is a typical MAP for our thermostat with the R48 heater assist. The WIS does not have any information on such temperature MAP table. It only tell you of R48 heater at thermostat housing.




In Farenheit


--------

Celcius boys typing Farenheit, you sometime see the typo .









Link of the thermostat information ,Farenheit version.
https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/me.../mo-2-1013.pdf


EVENT 1
Year 2020. Here I am seeing for the very first time, because I log the trip OBD data all the way...... the MAP thermostat in action.
My coolant was at 90C / 194F before the rain and the moment the rain started, the ECM took the opportunity to heat up my engine to 105C / 221F for approx 5 minutes and then it yoyo the temperature a bit.
The ECM knew from the ambient air temperature that the available cooling power is now higher with the lowered ambient temperature by the rain and how effective rain water will
cool down the radiator.





EVENT 2 , same trip, same master log file
When I was at higher altitude and driving so slow because cars in front of me slow ( 1,500cc only , no turbo), the ambient temperature came down from approx 30C / 86F to 23C / 73.4F and
the ECM again took opportunity to go as close as possible to 110C / 230F.





.
Here is the whole log file of the 2 events above . At this point in time I was still using Torque Apps on my Android tablet with a OBDLink LX model bluetooth OBD2 dongle. This one https://www.obdlink.com/products/obdlink-lx/




===============


The next year 2021 I went to higher altitude and cooler ambient temperature of 21C / 70F
This time I have Banks Gauge data logging but the system is not as complete (more sensors ) as in mid 2023.
The ECM keeps pushing coolant temp above 98C / 208F and up to 108C / 226.4 F





=======================



Year 2022, January. This is a 30C ambient temp. At the track. I was not driving very hard, but aggressive enough with RPM to heat up the coolant. I was just having fun with my cousin.
Here the ECM knows the ambient temp is too hot for it to do the MAP thermostat thingy. Thus you can see, max highest I hit is only 104C / 219 while at speed

2 + 2 + 2 laps or 3 sessions. The idling RPM between session 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 is a pit stop driver change. This is a 1Hz data point.
Engine running decently hard and then to idling-stationary, usually coolant temperature will rise by approx 3-4C for 2 minutes, the heat soak.





M276.8 3.0 TT standard is 0.8 BAR of boost only. If at 30C ambient temp and 80%+ humidity, I loose easy 5% of the claimed horsepower.




So there you go, you now seen.....the MAP controlled thermostat in action on my car, when and if the ambient temperature plus yada yada.... fits the ECM target profile.

I wonder how does this MAP thermostat thingy behave in a country with say long months with 20C / 68F ambient temperature ?
Are you guys often seeing true/OBD/ECM coolant temp of 105C up / 221F up on casual driving and not hill climbing or the like ?

.

S-Prihadi

Jet,

Those infra red gun is not too accurate on shiny surface and is distance + angle dependent too, what is distance to spot ratio on your unit ?

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

About 5". That's why I used two different thermometers. While not exact matches, they were in the same ballpark. Certainly not a 10% deviation. I did wait until the readings stabilized.

S-Prihadi

Ohhh no................. not good news Jet.

Your AMG digital gauge is using the same doctored data as the needle gauge

kevm14

When in doubt, unplug. Ask questions later.

kevm14

That's right.

kevm14

Two things.

1) I should go look that up for my W221 which had an overheating event recently, when the upper radiator hose popped out of the radiator (that'll do it). I have definitely noticed most Mercedes do that 90C thing and I'm not surprised it's a lie.

2) Does an actual AMG also fake everything? I feel like I have seen deviations between the analog gauge and the menu that shows coolant and oil temp (I don't have transmission temp but would like it). So maybe mine is not faking (aside from the needle gauge)?

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

All this is saying is that the (analog) gauge shows actual to 176°F. After that, the gauge stays steady at 90°C until the temperature reaches 115°C. And then the gauge goes and stays at 95°C from 115°C to 120°C. Lastly, above 120°C, the actual temperature is displayed on the gauge. This is different than what is displayed digitally in the IC. The digital display using the AMG menu shows the temperature as it rises and falls across all temperature ranges. You need the AMG menu enabled to view this on a non-AMG car. @BenzNinja can do this for you.

While the gauge pointer may remain at 90°C, the digital display will change with the measured temperature. It is just coincidental that I took pictures when the temp was at 192°F. My temperature gauge is showing a little under 90°C, which matches the 88.89°C that you calculated.