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I unplugged. It did zero, nothing, nadda. Except my oil leak, which I think is the left valve cover, is much worse. Plus a code complaining about it, but no change in power, response etc.
Tried with the tune first, then oem, still no change. I'm completely baffled that anyone sees any kind of power increase.
I unplugged. It did zero, nothing, nadda. Except my oil leak, which I think is the left valve cover, is much worse. Plus a code complaining about it, but no change in power, response etc.
Tried with the tune first, then oem, still no change. I'm completely baffled that anyone sees any kind of power increase.
Hmmm that is strange... Is yours a 2 stage or one stage oil system?
Hey Guys Yesterday I was unplugging the oil pump solenoid on my 2015 CLS 500 4-Matic with 9G-Tronic and M278. Tha car has a Stage 1 Software and Airfilter lift kit and some Exhaust mods.
The car is much more alive, it revs better, the shifts are smoother at cold Engine and cold Transm.
W205C43PFL; I have the two stage, hence the plug :p
Not strange imo. What is strange is why it would change anything. All these claims about more power are completely baffling to me.
Maybe it's psychological? Like when I was a kid the first thing people would do is get a loud muffler and insisted there was a big gain, but in reality it was just louder.
On my car, the throttle responds differently all the time. Usually it's rather laggy, but sometimes it's almost as crisp as a carburetor. So maybe one person did it and on that day his throttle was crisper, so it must've been unplugging. Maybe the same happens to another, who confirms this. Maybe the people who had that happen are the most vocal about it, and those who saw no gains don't mention it, so you see a lot of positive mentions. Many BS products are due to successful marketing, and marketing can influence reviews. Like Slick 50, or Liqui Moly, for example. Or those tornado intake thingies, or FlowMaster mufflers, which I call FlowCloggers. Marketing made FlowMaster, not the product. People buy into that crap.
The gist is; unplugging should change nothing, I expected nothing to happen, and nothing is what happened. Now if someone can data log the two, like I did, and show something different, that would be awesome. I'm totally open to it, but I cannot see it happening.
W205C43PFL; I have the two stage, hence the plug :p
Not strange imo. What is strange is why it would change anything. All these claims about more power are completely baffling to me.
Maybe it's psychological? Like when I was a kid the first thing people would do is get a loud muffler and insisted there was a big gain, but in reality it was just louder.
On my car, the throttle responds differently all the time. Usually it's rather laggy, but sometimes it's almost as crisp as a carburetor. So maybe one person did it and on that day his throttle was crisper, so it must've been unplugging. Maybe the same happens to another, who confirms this. Maybe the people who had that happen are the most vocal about it, and those who saw no gains don't mention it, so you see a lot of positive mentions. Many BS products are due to successful marketing, and marketing can influence reviews. Like Slick 50, or Liqui Moly, for example. Or those tornado intake thingies, or FlowMaster mufflers, which I call FlowCloggers. Marketing made FlowMaster, not the product. People buy into that crap.
The gist is; unplugging should change nothing, I expected nothing to happen, and nothing is what happened. Now if someone can data log the two, like I did, and show something different, that would be awesome. I'm totally open to it, but I cannot see it happening.
It is not more power to be specific, it is the feeling of more power. Put it simply, after disconnecting the gas pedal is more responsive. It is also not just in my head, I had passengers a few times and they commented on why I drive so aggressively now and I replied, I have been driving the same since I always did. There are all the other benefits that was mentioned that we also don't see or feel until later on.
It is not a tune after all, horsepower and everything is the same.
Edit: Another thing to note is that, some engines react differently to the unplug, if it is a turbo charged engine you won't see much difference, NA engines is different.
For my turbocharged engine however, I do notice a clear difference in turbo lag, or maybe it isn't turbo lag that changed but the fact that now the 2 seconds it takes to go from low pressure mode to normal pressure mode when flooring the vehicle is gone hence why it felt quicker on top of the more reactive gas pedal. The car just goes whenever I step on it instead of waiting 2 seconds to respond.
Last edited by W205C43PFL; 06-23-2024 at 03:00 PM.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
@Chevota I have said several times that I felt the stock performance change mostly with my NA M276. This was immediately after unplugging. Now, after 7 months, I've gotten used to the change. Or did the ECU and TCM just adapt to my driving style. Regardless, the effects are positive.
With my turbo M276, I have a tune that clearly benefitted from unplugging with respect to drivability. Again, I have pointed out that I was having Stage 2 drivability issues that caused me to revert back to Stage 1 until such time that @VividRacing generously took on fixing the problem by rewriting the tune to eliminate the drivability issues and backing off the aggressiveness of their Stage 2 tune. I called it their Stage 1.5 tune (which I think has become the only tune they are offering now). For kicks and curiosity, I loaded the Stage 2 tune after unplugging the solenoid and immediately had a more aggressive tune without the drivability issues.
Bottom line, unplugging has improved the performance of both of my cars.
Not necessarily saying you Red, but in general. And I believe you, I just don't know how or why it's possible.
I once thought maybe it was a power drop programmed in to be safe off idle with the lower psi, but people are putting in dummy valves so the ECU still thinks it's there and psi low, yet people still net the bennie. Wth?
VVT is the only thing that would physically change, that I'm aware of, but it would be a small change imo and not enough to matter. I can change my VVT to anything I want, including eliminating the idle settings so it's already at the non-idle position. It doesn't help... If anything it made it worse, but I also tried quite a variety of other settings, that made more sense, and nothing helps that off idle response much at all. For that reason I leave my idle and low rpm settings more or less stock. So imo there is zero bennie with the VVT having more psi.
So a quicker throttle is the only thing I can think of to cause this, and is the only thing that makes my eng respond quicker. But why would that change, especially for those who put a dummy valve in?
Again, I'm open to whatever it may be, but apparently the explanation will need to be spoon fed to me because I can't see it and nobody has a realistic reason. My guess is nobody knows, so my theory of it being imagination is as good as any since I don't have a better theory. Then there are people that I'm sure know better, like yourself, so I don't know what to think.
Whatever it is I'd love to have it because when mine does respond like a carburetor, it's awesome. Alas, >95% of the time is does not, and I can't figure that out either. I've been trying, because my off the line really sux and it upsets driving in general, but no luck so far. Unplugging made zero difference is how often this happens, btw.
When in Park, and it's delaying, I can floor it and let off as fast as I can, and idle will go from 650 to maybe 850, sometimes less. If not delaying it'll hit the rev limiter I have set at 2k. It's not always on/off either, it may go to ~1000, 1200, or even higher. Usually, however, it's <1000, or rev limiter. There is also catalyst mode that delays engine response, but I disregard the test if in that mode.
I can also adjust the throttle, like those pedal dealies they sell, except I have infinitely more adjustability. I can make the throttle do anything I want, except open quicker >: |
W205; From a start I have no boost, so that's not a factor. Obviously, and I assume what you meant, is it has something to do with the programming. From my perspective, based on peoples descriptions, is they had the throttle lag like I do, then they didn't. No actual power gain like you said, just faster throttle, right? I always assumed that's what everyone meant, but one guy said he had way more low rpm grunt at a steady gas pedal position, making things even more confusing for me. I know what he means because I have adjusted mine to do just that, the problem is it doesn't actually work out for the better, it just makes more power where you don't really want it.
It's rather frustrating because not only do I want this gain, my brain is not one to simply accept that something works, I must also know why. You know, one of those kids that takes everything apart.
Not necessarily saying you Red, but in general. And I believe you, I just don't know how or why it's possible.
I once thought maybe it was a power drop programmed in to be safe off idle with the lower psi, but people are putting in dummy valves so the ECU still thinks it's there and psi low, yet people still net the bennie. Wth?
VVT is the only thing that would physically change, that I'm aware of, but it would be a small change imo and not enough to matter. I can change my VVT to anything I want, including eliminating the idle settings so it's already at the non-idle position. It doesn't help... If anything it made it worse, but I also tried quite a variety of other settings, that made more sense, and nothing helps that off idle response much at all. For that reason I leave my idle and low rpm settings more or less stock. So imo there is zero bennie with the VVT having more psi.
So a quicker throttle is the only thing I can think of to cause this, and is the only thing that makes my eng respond quicker. But why would that change, especially for those who put a dummy valve in?
Again, I'm open to whatever it may be, but apparently the explanation will need to be spoon fed to me because I can't see it and nobody has a realistic reason. My guess is nobody knows, so my theory of it being imagination is as good as any since I don't have a better theory. Then there are people that I'm sure know better, like yourself, so I don't know what to think.
Whatever it is I'd love to have it because when mine does respond like a carburetor, it's awesome. Alas, >95% of the time is does not, and I can't figure that out either. I've been trying, because my off the line really sux and it upsets driving in general, but no luck so far. Unplugging made zero difference is how often this happens, btw.
When in Park, and it's delaying, I can floor it and let off as fast as I can, and idle will go from 650 to maybe 850, sometimes less. If not delaying it'll hit the rev limiter I have set at 2k. It's not always on/off either, it may go to ~1000, 1200, or even higher. Usually, however, it's <1000, or rev limiter. There is also catalyst mode that delays engine response, but I disregard the test if in that mode.
I can also adjust the throttle, like those pedal dealies they sell, except I have infinitely more adjustability. I can make the throttle do anything I want, except open quicker >: |
W205; From a start I have no boost, so that's not a factor. Obviously, and I assume what you meant, is it has something to do with the programming. From my perspective, based on peoples descriptions, is they had the throttle lag like I do, then they didn't. No actual power gain like you said, just faster throttle, right? I always assumed that's what everyone meant, but one guy said he had way more low rpm grunt at a steady gas pedal position, making things even more confusing for me. I know what he means because I have adjusted mine to do just that, the problem is it doesn't actually work out for the better, it just makes more power where you don't really want it.
It's rather frustrating because not only do I want this gain, my brain is not one to simply accept that something works, I must also know why. You know, one of those kids that takes everything apart.
Mhmmm, precisely, the pedal is just more sensitive now and no longer soft and as mentioned earlier there is no longer a delay due to not having to switch from low oil pressure to normal oil pressure if I quickly accelerate or if I do kickdown maneuvers. Keep in mind this is on a biturbo M276.823 engine 2017 C 43, YMMV for sure for that reason.
As for making power when you don't want to, I don't find that be that case in my experience, again ymmv.
Haha, brings back memories, when I was a kid, I love taking things apart.
It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe the VVT works better, especially at lower rpm, with more oil pressure. We have also documented what the oil pressure reduction is under various conditions. Many have also mentioned simpler improvements such as a smoother idle.
All that said, it also seems like different cars react different to unplugging and you are definitely not the first to say "I don't really notice anything." But many of us do. It doesn't mean you're wrong to say you don't notice anything. It also doesn't mean you're right to say we are all making it up. I think both of these things are true.
I just logged my adjuster actuals vs commanded but have not done so with the solenoid plugged in so I can't really use that data for anything yet.
It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe the VVT works better, especially at lower rpm, with more oil pressure. We have also documented what the oil pressure reduction is under various conditions. Many have also mentioned simpler improvements such as a smoother idle.
All that said, it also seems like different cars react different to unplugging and you are definitely not the first to say "I don't really notice anything." But many of us do. It doesn't mean you're wrong to say you don't notice anything. It also doesn't mean you're right to say we are all making it up. I think both of these things are true.
I just logged my adjuster actuals vs commanded but have not done so with the solenoid plugged in so I can't really use that data for anything yet.
Yup this sums up the experience for everyone with different engines and certainly a YMMV type of thing. I also didn't not agree with the "don't really notice anything" quite opposite in fact because I do believe them, it really depends on the engine, the application (what vehicle...), the mileage, even the engine oil type and viscosity, although MB doesn't recommend additives some still do add those so that is another factor.
One theory is cars that don't really see an improvement may have higher native oil pressure than ones that do. This is testable and we could plot the results to check for correlation but we don't have that data because logging oil pressure is quite a PITA.
One theory is cars that don't really see an improvement may have higher native oil pressure than ones that do. This is testable and we could plot the results to check for correlation but we don't have that data because logging oil pressure is quite a PITA.
The pump has a high pressure relief but there is no feedback/control for minimum oil pressure. It is what it is. Oil pressure is dependent on oil viscosity (which is itself driven by a lot of factors), journal bearing tolerances/wear and oil pump tolerances/wear. There may be other factors, as well. But it isn't necessarily JUST a low vs high mileage thing. I also keep assuming that Mercedes couldn't have released these cars like this - like unplugging on day 1 shouldn't change anything, right? Cali would say the pistons getting sprayed on day 1 will result in better lifetime ring sealing which could be true. And also better control of piston temps through all driving conditions.
The pump has a high pressure relief but there is no feedback/control for minimum oil pressure. It is what it is. Oil pressure is dependent on oil viscosity (which is itself driven by a lot of factors), journal bearing tolerances/wear and oil pump tolerances/wear. There may be other factors, as well. But it isn't necessarily JUST a low vs high mileage thing. I also keep assuming that Mercedes couldn't have released these cars like this - like unplugging on day 1 shouldn't change anything, right? Cali would say the pistons getting sprayed on day 1 will result in better lifetime ring sealing which could be true. And also better control of piston temps through all driving conditions.
I hate the fact most MB engines now lacks : oil pressure sensor, real coolant temperature sensor, real oil temperature sensor as forum member CaliBenzDriver discovered.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by W205C43PFL
I hate the fact most MB engines now lacks : oil pressure sensor, real coolant temperature sensor, real oil temperature sensor as forum member CaliBenzDriver discovered.
Apparently, MB (either the bean-counters or the engineers) have decided to build these engines to operate safely without real sensors. But as I discovered, the displayed oil temperature is within the tolerance of my IR thermometers when measuring the oil temperature at the drainplug. So, whatever algorithm they use to calculate oil temperature, it seems reliable. It also eliminates a component that may fail and one that certainly would increase manufacturing costs.
WRT performance improvement, I neglected to reiterate that I also did not notice a significant change on my turbo M276 engine upon disconnecting the solenoid. I remember @S-Prihadi making a similar comment regarding turbo M276 engines. The real improvement was noticed after I loaded the Stage 2 file. Also, about that time I had @BenzNinja code my transmission to add the Sport+/Agility mode, last mode selected keep, and throttle control tweaks, all of which were significant in changing the drivability and perceived performance improvement.
Apparently, MB (either the bean-counters or the engineers) have decided to build these engines to operate safely without real sensors. But as I discovered, the displayed oil temperature is within the tolerance of my IR thermometers when measuring the oil temperature at the drainplug. So, whatever algorithm they use to calculate oil temperature, it seems reliable. It also eliminates a component that may fail and one that certainly would increase manufacturing costs.
WRT performance improvement, I neglected to reiterate that I also did not notice a significant change on my turbo M276 engine upon disconnecting the solenoid. I remember @S-Prihadi making a similar comment regarding turbo M276 engines. The real improvement was noticed after I loaded the Stage 2 file. Also, about that time I had @BenzNinja code my transmission to add the Sport+/Agility mode, last mode selected keep, and throttle control tweaks, all of which were significant in changing the drivability and perceived performance improvement.
Good to hear the algorithm works, if I recalled correctly, forum member CaliBenzDriver mentions there are so many variables to calculating the temperature including the RPM, ambient temperature, throttle threshold/input and driving style, drive program (comfort or in sport+), coolant pump activation interval and speed, amount of braking (say stop and go traffic) etc.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by W205C43PFL
Good to hear the algorithm works...
I was quite surprised that the oil temperature taken at the oil pan drain plug and what was displayed in the AMG menu matched within a few tenths of a degree of each other, on the average of two IR thermometers. What also surprised me was the difference in temperatures between the coolant and tranny oil displayed versus reported in the live data in my scan tool, as much as 10%. The AMG menu display was higher than the scan tool.
I was quite surprised that the oil temperature taken at the oil pan drain plug and what was displayed in the AMG menu matched within a few tenths of a degree of each other, on the average of two IR thermometers. What also surprised me was the difference in temperatures between the coolant and tranny oil displayed versus reported in the live data in my scan tool, as much as 10%. The AMG menu display was higher than the scan tool.
Mhmmm I was surprised too when I read your posts on those, I appreciate you sharing your observations too.
Good to hear the algorithm works, if I recalled correctly, forum member CaliBenzDriver mentions there are so many variables to calculating the temperature including the RPM, ambient temperature, throttle threshold/input and driving style, drive program (comfort or in sport+), coolant pump activation interval and speed, amount of braking (say stop and go traffic) etc.
this is especially true for oil pressure. It is highly dependant on temperature, age, RPM, grade,...
Its very easy to measure a meaningless number because of test conditions. If all the reasoning is based on numbers then reasoning conclusions are misleading ie. not useful.
It's a bit easier to measure existing results after the fact than to collect numbers to reason your way to a solution.
By now I think I am operating in the higher end of pump pressure near idle. So it's pretty much guaranteed that pressure is maxed out at lower RPM.
I don't exactly care about idle pressure or max pressure RPM (2500) - What I care about is effective cooling at actual driving RPM (~1750).
The best way to look at this is to consider the overall envelope profile.
Just like Master Surya's test drive plots.
Look at how values interact.
Singles values are not too useful.
> HERE:
-- realize what you are trying to measure is an ELASTIC number! Then you understand why numbers are easily meaningless without strict lab conditions.
-- Realize measuring oil is not trivial. Even SAE society uses flow + viscosity range to qualify their products.
-- It's easy to measure numbers that make no sense of reality because in fact the pool of variables make this meaningless.
So don't limit yourself to numbers to understand what's happening because too many variable interactions to track meaningful solid results.
Indeed engine oil does have a pressure and a given temperature at driving RPM but not knowing these numbers is totally OK! Grasping a range is a valid approximation because value keeps changing.
I think using the right oil chemistry package with the right viscosity is the most important factor for effective pistons cooling.
Getting better ECU response relies on pressure for stif tensioners and stable VVT so HPFP prop valve doesn't lose track of lobes timings ie. fuel pressure.
The ECU tracks HPFP to capture lobes timings knows when prop-valve control is in closed or open loop control (not Lambda/O2 but HPFP).
When this is too jittery, basic injection timings are used instead of rich powerful multi-shots.
Besides my mixed "6w42" viscosity the only other things different that I have are reworked ISM + ESP which instantly canceled CAN-C latencies responsible for delayed tranny shifts.
If you provide viscosity conditions and ECU doesn't enable kick-*** GDI timings after things settle down then consider canceling ESP/ISM solderless chaos to get 100% satisfaction you deserve.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 06-24-2024 at 05:38 PM.
this is especially true for oil pressure. It is highly dependant on temperature, age, RPM, grade,...
Its very easy to measure a meaningless number because of test conditions. If all the reasoning is based on numbers then reasoning conclusions are misleading ie. not useful.
It's a bit easier to measure existing results without using numbers for reasoning.
By now I think I am operating in the higher end of pump pressure near idle. So it's pretty much guaranteed that pressure is maxed out at lower RPM.
I don't exactly care about idle pressure or max pressure RPM (2500) - What I care about is effective cooling at actual driving RPM (~1750).
The best way to look at this is to consider the overall envelope profile.
Just like Master Surya's test drive plots.
Look at how values interact.
Singles values are not too useful.
> HERE:
-- realize what you are trying to measure is an ELASTIC number! Then you understand why numbers are easily meaningless without strict lab conditions.
-- Realize measuring oil is not trivial. Even SAE society uses flow + viscosity range to qualify their products.
-- It's easy to measure numbers that make no sense of reality because in fact the pool of variables make this meaningless.
So don't limit yourself to numbers to understand what's happening because two many variable interactions to track meaningful solid results.
Indeed engine oil has a pressure and a given temperature at driving RPM. Not knowing it is A-OK!
I think using the right oil chemistry with the right viscosity is the most important factor for effective pistons cooling.
Getting better ECU response relies on pressure for stif tensioners and stable VVT so HPFP prop valve doesn't lose track of lobes timings ie. fuel pressure.
The ECU tracks HPFP to capture lobes timings knows when prop-valve control is in closed loop or open loop control. When this is too jittery, basic injection timings are used instead of rich powerful multi-shots.
Besides "6w42" viscosity the only other things different that I have are ISM + ESP whick instantly canceled delays over CAN-C.
If you provide viscosity conditions and ECU doesn't enable kick-*** GDI timings after things settle down then consider canceling ESP/ISM solderless chaos to get 100% satisfaction you deserve.
Appreciate your detailed explanation as always, TIL a lot thank you : )
03-21-2024, 08:49 PM
