2014 E63 S Wagon, stock stock.
Killed again front inner edge on tires.

If you improved and/or cured your inner edge front tire war, can you please share toe setting you use on front, and out of curiosity on rear?

Thank you.

P.S. on other AWD performance cars, I use 0 front and rear TOE, because,
As car rolls down the road, front wheels are pushed toward Toe-out position by the road-pressure
Driven wheels pull, and when they pull they toe-in.
The two close to cancel out, so setting 0 toe seems to work well.

On RWD cars front should be toed -in a bit, since these cars just need to balance out the road-pressure against tires, pushing them into toe-out position.

 

CAMBER also canwear inside or outside tread.

Need proper alignment and current measurements to know where you stand.
NOte Camber is not really adjustable from factory.
Hundreds of threads on here about camber adjustment and inside edge tire wear for every MB car/SUV.

 

How long did your fronts last?

What air pressure are you running?

 

these cars are notorious for that front and tire wear.

Mine are extreme example of Michelin PS4S with 20,000 miles that I put on in 2020.

I haven’t tracked the car in like three years and honestly just completely forgot how high the mileage got on these until slow leak finally happened a couple weeks ago which I’m lucky the tire didn’t just blow out considering how bad it’s worn

 

Thank you all for your replays and interest to help.

Car is stock, as stated, aligned to factory specs, before alignment, and after still.

If you have mitigated your tire wear by some toe setting, and get 30-40K miles out of the fronts, what Toe do you run?



There is nothing to see here, it is all within specs,

I took out a bit of toe in.

As I said, I have and have had AWD cars, and align them to 0 toe always, on occasion Toe Out, for better turn in.
And they are all 50/50 drive, so they put "some power" through the front, E63 Wagon is 33/66 or something like that- hence it puts a lot less power through the front. And it is 50% heavier then the AWD cars I drive with 0 toe. That weight may impact toe - having more road resistance etc.



If you have good tire wear, please share your toe settings.
Camber is what it is, it won't change, and it has been proven that camber is not main culprit in the inner edge wear, I run -3.5 on AWD cars with 0 toe and the tires wear well.


Thank you,

 

toe zero

Camber can get messed up if and fixed depending on how you tighten the 2 strut bolts.
Also, you can try crash bolts for 0.3 degrees less camber or Kmac for ~2.0 degrees of adjustment.
My car was lowered 2" with and i was at -1.3 camber and zero toe.
No bad tire wear

 

How many miles do you have on your tires in that config? 4,000 isn't going to do it. Some folks on here don't put that many miles on their cars.

I had that type of inner wear, though my right front has excessive front right negative camber. I can't figure out what it is though I may try making a strut adjustment to reset it for less camber. Also something in my front end makes a popping noise in certain scenarios (have heard it under hard braking, but also when turning the steering wheel at low speeds). I can't find a single thing wrong with anything and neither could the alignment guy.

Back on alignment theory, negative camber is going to be a compromise between even tire wear and the way you drive the car. A normal car alignment will wear well under regular, highway use. But if you drove it hard it would chew up the outside of the tires since excessive load will be taken up by the outer tread under cornering. That's why we use negative camber, to adjust the contact patch under cornering loads. However, if you adjust to this more performance alignment, then tire wear during mundane driving circumstances will chew up the inside tread. Also, with negative camber, the FASTEST way to chew up the inner tread is to use toe-out. From what I have studied, some toe-in can help spread the load across the tread when you have negative camber. If you think about the mechanics of the tire, it makes sense. I'm a little surprised and skeptical that zero toe is the best for bad inner wear.

 

Kenny,

Toe Zero

Thank you. I know you know, so I really appreciate your input and advice.

May I ask where is your rear toe?


I am close to zero, at 0.01 Total Toe front, and 0.01 Total Toe rear.

 

I think I have a few tips that may help bring wear closer to
I am no wheel alignment specialist but our simple W212 front suspension is easy to understand


McPherson setup... no wishbone!

The alignment numbers hardly reflect the reality of the tires wear - Numbers look ok... so why so bad??

What's chewing the inner edge in normal non-track driving is POOR DYNAMIC GEOMETRY.

Obviously the toe angle moves around much more than the hot quiet/soft tires care for.
Most of the contact forces are concentrated where the wear is!! You have a nice wide tire mostly used over 1Inch

The outcome is seriously unstable handling plus poor mushy brakes stressing 1In. of rubber.

At the end of the day every angle needs to be tightly guided by
both control arms with
lower BJ plus
strut bushing.
Wheel bearing needs to be adjusted and
steering rack tie rods
stabilizer links + bars

​​​​​​Guess what else directly affects dynamic geometry??
It's ride height vs. rack height as follows:

> Tie-rod angle vs. neutral spindle:
We need to realize the chassis ride height directly interact with the front toe to chew tire edge.
When the suspension travels up, the outer tie rod describes an arc of circle. Thats the bad news as neutral bias becomes rapidly negative.

The factory stock chassis design has the optimal toe near neutral with a tiny bias towards stability (toed-in).

When the old springs sag,
when weight is loaded with 4x passengers,
when cornering hard
when braking,
when 4Matic is lowered
...
The front axle becomes toed-in way too far from near zero total angle.

The best toe adjustment is for the average driving position near neutral angle.

When chassis is lowered steering rack needs to be raised to keep bias around neutral zero. Then with a super small suspension travel, the toe is less impacted regardless of it being away from factory neutral location.


Chassis "Ride height" is like engine "AF mixture" the absolute best setting is neutral. Special settings only serve best fewer restrictive cases.

Proceed by elimination or all at once better.

 

Thanks, but my car is standard ride height.

Mercedes designed the 2014 E63 as ultimate expression of their engineering ability. I have to assume that they dialed in the steering rack height with respect to upright tie-rod arms.

I do agree with you that all the many components participate in "dynamic toe",

The toe is measured on alignment rack, with all the weight on the tire, so at least most of the mass is already acting on the suspension.

I am sure that the acceleration, but especially hard cornering and hard braking, move toe-measurement.

For now I won't do any changes, as I am near-zero TOE as Kenny recommended. I will try next set of tires to see "where it goes".

I will carefully review the condition of the bushings, and see what else could be installed as replacement that may "limit" movement/toe change, but importantly without significant NVH impact. No Poly.

 

yes we all agree we want a near zero static but the tire wear is showing that's not where it is dynamically

Consider how each arm dynamic travel affect the neutral toe... Our corrective actions need to help keep spindle at its default position most of the time or as much as possible.

I think the big strut spring and especially the soft stabilizer torsion spring are in this for something.

If your chassis is boucing around a lot, lets make that motion stop:

• stab links F+R
• stabilizer torsion bar spring itself

the basic usuals are :

• Front caster control arm
• (Camber arm) + ball joint
• Strut top bushing!

The shocks are the big-ticket sell for suspension but the Mercedes soft torsion bar is an unsung VIP hero that does a lot to keep spindle steady at neutral spot.
Once it's way too soft it helps to overheat the oil inside the strut that then can't do much dampening with hot lower viscosity hydraulic oil. The strut oil react negatively to heat.

Have you noticed your car bounces less when cold than when shocks got hot ??

 

CaliBenzDriver

With all that you said, if I go to an alignment shop, what should I tell them? What do I want?

I am not going to 3D scan the E63 to try to prove Mercedes design "subprime", nor do I really expect to find that: I have E350 Wagon 2014, and it does not wear tires so unevenly.

Empirical testing is proof of theoretical concept. Anyone who has successfully managed to maintain good tire wear through 30+k miles can offer their toe value and am sure it would result in same good tire wear for my car too.

 

Yes that’s right a prestige make but OEM there is no Front Camber or Caster and no Rear Camber adjustment.

New car industry’s best kept secret. All to do with cost cutting and ever increasing speed of new car assembly lines STOPPING TO ADJUST - IS NO LONGER AN OPTION.

Often quoted re assuring Full Front & Rear ‘4’ Wheel Alignment - is now only basic Toe directional adjustment !

Yet Camber is essential to resolve Costly, Premature Edge Tire Wear - by allowing to adjust tire contact angles - spread load more evenly. Excess edge load can also lead to ruptured side walls and rim damage.

With situations encountered in day to day commuting - high cambered roads with “excess passengers side” edge wear. Wheel squat through extra passenger loads or lowering. Fitting wide profile tires and no longer “ongoing adjustment” to cater for curb knock damage.

FRONT AND REAR CAMBER HAS NOW ONE SET POSITION - TO SUIT SHOWROOM HEIGHT CONDITIONS.

Dealers having no remedy ( but trying to placate) advising at “showroom height” - is within factory specs !


SEE SPOILER




AUDI to VOLVO - Experience Resolving OEM Suspension Shortcomings (and costs) Since 1964 !

 

K-Mac,

You always post the same marketing jargon.

If you are posting in this forum, as expert, would it not make sense to offer valuable technical input before any marketing?

 

I am sorry my English wasn't clear:
There's nothing wrong with your wheel alignment that need to be set to preserve your tires.
Your need suspension parts replaced ahead of alignment check.

What your trying to do is like tuning an engine with a bad injectors...
You chassis need PARTS, not an adjustment!
Your suspension need OEM quality parts replaced, you'll then see chassis becoming stable and handling will be restored to factory grade.

My best guess is :

1. the F/R stabilizer spring bars + links
2. forward control arm and
3. Front strut bushings
4. optional alignment check afterwards

When you drive the car you can tell how it handles and how suspensions parts are working. Every part has a job. That tells you exactly what parts are tired besides consideration for age + mileage wear.

The SPRINGS + BUSHING + BJ's are the early wear items.

 

Yes - agree but there’s volumes of technical input over numerous forums !

It all comes back to many owners of the belief “surely” such an expensive make - simply must be Full front Camber and Caster along with Rear Camber. Especially performance AMG models. Allowing to adjust tire contact angles spread load more evenly.

Not helped by dealers maintaining the mis-conception of stating “Will carry out a Full Front & Rear ‘4’ wheel alignment” - to find it is only basic Toe “directional” adjustment !

Then to be told “THAT IF IT WAS AT SHOWROOM HEIGHT” (with even load) it would be within factory specs !

Simply not in the real world of “varying road and load conditions”.

FRUSTRATINGLY OBVIOUS - putting onus back on owners “to prematurely fund” the cost of new tires !



AUDI to VOLVO - Experience Resolving OEM Suspension Shortcomings (and Costs) Since 1964 !