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One thing that disappoints me (for probably completely irrational reasons) on my '18 E63s wagon with CCB is the downsized 1-piston rear brake caliper versus the older 4-piston CCB rear caliper.
Anyone done the swap just for the rears for the older style gold 4-pots? I would really like to do that to mine if its feasible.
I wouldn't be surprised if its not feasible, but does anyone have info on this? I can tell just from pictures that the mounting style of the caliper *appears* similar.
It would be really excellent if the rotor diameter and thickness was the same, and you could just swap the rear calipers and bleed the fluid and be done.
I can't imagine there's more than 1 rear carbon ceramic rotor spec, however looking at the photos below, they do look slightly different
Anyone have a junk <2018 4pot rear CCB caliper I can test fit?
Research I've done so far:
The W213 rear CCB caliper uses a side-mounted caliper (bolts through ears in the caliper).
Which looks similar to the R197/SLS rear CCB caliper mounting point
and the W212 CCB rear:
Last edited by subiefiles; 03-19-2021 at 01:35 AM.
subiefiles, I couldn't agree more and want to do the same thing to my future W213 AMG. It bothers the fck out of me that AMG dropped the 4 pot for the 1 pot rear caliper. The only consolation is that the rear caliper on the current M5 is worse and made even more so by the fact that an M2 gets a 2 pot rear. I would sooner accept a 2 pot over the single but the 4 pot is far more manly.
I've searched for info regarding AMG's decision to drop the 4 pot rear and watched a video on brakes from the AMG Youtube channel (subtitled) and have yet to get ANY explanation. There is one big consideration to keep in mind if you make the swap; what are the service and warranty ramifications? I'm betting that if you have a strong relationship with an MB Service Dept they'd probably do the work but not under warranty and God forbid if they determine other service issues were the result of the mod. I'm betting extended warranties might take issue with the mod as well.
Has anyone reported a problem on the 2018+ E63s with rear braking performance or bias?
At the AMG Academy at Laguna Seca they used the E63s for the braking exercises. The cars all had CCBs. They got used repeatedly for full maximum effect braking by each of the groups as we rotated through the events. I don't recall anyone noting issues with rear brake fade or lack of stopping power.
The problem I've had on some cars is too much rear brake bias during heavy braking with any kind of turning input leading to the rear of the car wanting to come around. This is pre-ESP equipped cars. Can't say that I've put the E63s into that kind of situation yet but I think the ESP would probably step in and help at that point.
Motorcycles have massive brakes up front with dual rotors and six pistons whereas the rear brake only gets a single rotor and one piston. When racing you rarely use the rear brake because there is so much weight transfer to the front that the rear wheel is barely on the ground and sometimes actually lofts off the ground during the heaviest portion of braking. This and the combination of engine braking means the rear brake is mostly just extra unsprung weight along for the ride. Dirt bikes are another story and the rear brake actually gets used a lot to help turn the bike.
The biggest use of the rear brake on the E63s is probably from engaging during traction control events to help limit rear wheel spin. If it needs any extra capability it's probably there, not for actual braking.
Has anyone reported a problem on the 2018+ E63s with rear braking performance or bias?
At the AMG Academy at Laguna Seca they used the E63s for the braking exercises. The cars all had CCBs. They got used repeatedly for full maximum effect braking by each of the groups as we rotated through the events. I don't recall anyone noting issues with rear brake fade or lack of stopping power.
The problem I've had on some cars is too much rear brake bias during heavy braking with any kind of turning input leading to the rear of the car wanting to come around. This is pre-ESP equipped cars. Can't say that I've put the E63s into that kind of situation yet but I think the ESP would probably step in and help at that point.
Motorcycles have massive brakes up front with dual rotors and six pistons whereas the rear brake only gets a single rotor and one piston. When racing you rarely use the rear brake because there is so much weight transfer to the front that the rear wheel is barely on the ground and sometimes actually lofts off the ground during the heaviest portion of braking. This and the combination of engine braking means the rear brake is mostly just extra unsprung weight along for the ride. Dirt bikes are another story and the rear brake actually gets used a lot to help turn the bike.
The biggest use of the rear brake on the E63s is probably from engaging during traction control events to help limit rear wheel spin. If it needs any extra capability it's probably there, not for actual braking.
Bias is not an issue anymore on modern cars. They pretty much all use EBD (electronic brake force distribution) instead of a brake proportioning valve. EBD regulates the brake force going to each individual wheel to maximize stopping power and improve stability. The rear brakes are actually used quite a lot on modern cars with EBD during normal daily driving. The rear brakes engage first to avoid/minimize noise diving and increase passenger comfort. Light braking often only engages the rear brakes. Something that's common when using DISTRONIC for example. It's not unusual for the rear pads to be worn first these days. The rear brakes are also used for torque vectoring when understeer is detected to induce an additional yaw moment, and to help the locking rear differential with the torque distribution.
Has anyone reported a problem on the 2018+ E63s with rear braking performance or bias?
At the AMG Academy at Laguna Seca they used the E63s for the braking exercises. The cars all had CCBs. They got used repeatedly for full maximum effect braking by each of the groups as we rotated through the events. I don't recall anyone noting issues with rear brake fade or lack of stopping power.
The problem I've had on some cars is too much rear brake bias during heavy braking with any kind of turning input leading to the rear of the car wanting to come around. This is pre-ESP equipped cars. Can't say that I've put the E63s into that kind of situation yet but I think the ESP would probably step in and help at that point.
Motorcycles have massive brakes up front with dual rotors and six pistons whereas the rear brake only gets a single rotor and one piston. When racing you rarely use the rear brake because there is so much weight transfer to the front that the rear wheel is barely on the ground and sometimes actually lofts off the ground during the heaviest portion of braking. This and the combination of engine braking means the rear brake is mostly just extra unsprung weight along for the ride. Dirt bikes are another story and the rear brake actually gets used a lot to help turn the bike.
The biggest use of the rear brake on the E63s is probably from engaging during traction control events to help limit rear wheel spin. If it needs any extra capability it's probably there, not for actual braking.
I said it was irrational! I like the look of the 4pots WAY more than the small 1-pot. Functionally... I have no input, I'm sure its been very well engineered to be perfectly adequate. But for a $130k+ car, it really seems silly to downsize the rear brake like that. Even an opposed 2-pot would be more reasonable than a silly sliding 1pot
Originally Posted by superswiss
Bias is not an issue anymore on modern cars. They pretty much all use EBD (electronic brake force distribution) instead of a brake proportioning valve. EBD regulates the brake force going to each individual wheel to maximize stopping power and improve stability. The rear brakes are actually used quite a lot on modern cars with EBD during normal daily driving. The rear brakes engage first to avoid/minimize noise diving and increase passenger comfort. Light braking often only engages the rear brakes. Something that's common when using DISTRONIC for example. It's not unusual for the rear pads to be worn first these days. The rear brakes are also used for torque vectoring when understeer is detected to induce an additional yaw moment, and to help the locking rear differential with the torque distribution.
I find that interesting, and semi-believable even!
I've found full sets on eBay between $15k and $17 but haven't really searched around that much. I'm looking for a full set because new orders for cars spec'd with CCBs aren't getting filled because of some crazy stupid EPA issue with the brake pad material. Not sure if that means dealers can't get them here in the States and I've also heard the supply is much reduced.
It's funny how something seemingly so insignificant in appearance for most can disrupt ones psyche so much.
I'm looking for a full set because new orders for cars spec'd with CCBs aren't getting filled because of some crazy stupid EPA issue with the brake pad material.
My car was built 2 weeks ago with CCB's, why does this issue keep coming up? By the way I agree with the rear caliper size.
No, but if someone had one that was damaged that I could test fit, I'd pay a couple bucks for it
Then once i have any evidence its worth doing, I'd go through the process of trying to source a usable pair
I found 1 single W212 rear caliper... debating buying it just to compare in person. unless someone else wants to: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224387651224
I just realized something very obvious and silly. These W212 4pots dont have any provision for the electronic parking brake (the unit that is on the back of the caliper)
What did the W212 parking brake look like?
EDIT: tried to research it and it appears the W212 classic foot-actuated parking brake with drum brakes inside the rotor.
Last edited by subiefiles; 08-26-2021 at 08:21 PM.
They look dumb with those tiny calipers. Lol very cheap of Mercedes. Always cost cutting on the wrong models.
Agreed... it seems petty to have ditched the proper 4-piston calipers. Porsche has not done so, and it's just sad that MB, Audi and BMW have. IIRC the initial MY18 brochure stated that the 'normal' steel AMG brakes had a 1-piston, but that the CCB package still had 4-piston. By MY19 that changed to reflect the 1-piston, but it was part of why I paid so much for the CCB upgrade is that I did not want the cheap-looking 1-piston rears.
There's a subtlety lost in 24Hours point about Porsche using the 4 pot. I've driven my aunt's Cayanne GTS, several times, and it uses an eparking brake WITH the 4 pot rears. The mod gets more complicated because if you test a 4 pot with ebrake it'll then have to be painted the exclusive MB bronze color and decal-ed accordingly as well.
I can't imagine Brembo going to the trouble to manufacture the 4 pot caliper with AND without the ebrake provision.........but then I'm not a mechanic or have spent any amount of time under either a Porsche or a Mercedes.
This just in.............Brembo now makes a 4 pot caliper with integrated e-brake.
It's called Extrema and it's been showing up on new Ferraris (Capt Obvious). The complexity of this upgrade is the caliper mounting bracket, matching the AMG specific CCB color and having the requisite AMG decals applied.
On a similar note, I noticed that the soon to be re-released SL63 has a new rear caliper with the CCB option but I've not seen any specs or information on the new component. This may very well be the easiest change to make to the current 1 pot caliper. I learned in the search for info on the forthcoming CCBs that there is a small electric motor on the backside of the 1 pot caliper that is the e-brake system. So it's possible the new Extrema 4 pot caliper would utilize the same motor and electrical connection.
It's even possible that AMG has been listening but time will tell. I'm encouraged that there is a viable replacement for the 1 pot.........at least in appearance.
Cool! Thats neat news, thanks for sharing. I found a few videos of the new SL63 online and here is what the rear CCB caliper looks like. oddly it is low mounted.
I can't tell if its a 2 piston sliding caliper, kinda looks like it, but it does at least appear larger than the E63 single piston.
This thread cracks me up. The rear caliper is definitely too small. I have an M5 too and that caliper is just as bad. Having said that - I think you’re insane trying to swap it out. If it ain’t broke. 😉
03-19-2021, 01:15 AM
