I.T. Guy

Catch cans are a dime a dozen in other worlds.
Is it really so complicated on this engine to install one?

zukmeister

Yeah I don't get it, I run one on my f150 ecoboost and ran one on my supercharged mustang. That thing would collect a couple of ounces of oil vapors before every oil change.

I.T. Guy

For the C
https://www.zacmotorsport.com/en-ca/...dual-catch-can

I just asked a guy I know that is big into turbos to design one for the M177

theboogers

Do you think a vented catch can would do its job and reduce pressure build up in the system taking pressure off the RMS?

I.T. Guy

Yes and IMHO If the oil separators didn't get clogged there would be no blowing out RMS seals either. The oil separators should have been designed to be easily serviceable, like a PCV valve or something easy to maintain.

I.T. Guy

Also with a vented catch can I feel the oil separators may even clog even faster, seeing as there would be a lot less pressure moving stuff through them if the vented can is sized and placed properly. Or perhaps since hardly anything is blowing through the separators they'd stay clean. Who knows!

The $64,000 questions are how bad are clogged separators if running a catch can? Can they just clog up and not cause other issues?
And just how will the computer freak out from which sensor data that will be out of spec?

chassis

If a catch can is installed it would be best to remove the separators to avoid plugging, albeit with reduced flow/demand on them, and collateral damage.

graphitegreyamg

The one undergoing R&D has the design of ease to put back to stock for inspection purposes. I would write off a fix from MB. The M177 LS1 and LS2 air separators have design differences. This will not translate to part no revisions. The first part of development was to access the EPC to see whats been changed which I was shown and now its on to fitment and thereafter testing.

Also the aftermarket sol’n incorporates the current design in place which means no sensors will be bypassed and anyone wouldnt be any wiser to pass the system for emissions unless MB (and a smart MB tech at that) looks around. The ZAC version causes a code. Any solution that protects the engine is a thumbs up in my books emission certified or not regardless.

HBerman

OK, you've peaked my interest. Just how will this new part work? What is LS1 and LS2? If the modification is reverted for inspection purposes, what stops the RMS from blowing out during the time when the mod is removed? I certainly have no knowledge of how many M177 engines are affected by the clogged separators, but it's probably a statistically small percentage. Also, since there was a design change to the RMS, did that mitigate the oil leaks (not sure when that part was first introduced into engine production) enough to just address the repair events that might occur?

graphitegreyamg

I wish I was one of the engineers but the words flimsy and plastic-y were heavily used on the air oil separators that compounds carbon blockage issues throughout the oil separators. M177.LS1 was the first iteration of the M177 which since has been changed to M177.LS2. Again I am no engineer and just tried to follow along the discussion on the retrofit to isolate the problems that plague the separator so it stays functional and doesn’t fail.

From MY understanding in the past AMG’s it is also crankcase venting systems that clogged from carbon build-up since it is mostly a passive system based off of pressure differentials in the engine. It’s not like a “PCV can burn off carbon” and this trickles down to every system that follows the track past where the pcv was reintroduced/ rerouted in the intake.

I probably would just leave the system in place as one of the discussion I keep asking is having it LOOK OEM and other than emptying the catch can itself it shouldn’t really affect ant other parameters throughout the electrics and emissions so it is essentially “unknowingly” there. As you had said every time the catch can is rerouted back straight to the separators the system is at risk again

whoover

Just had mine done. Extended warranty covered it. The PTSS case is 163209 for people who can access that system. It does look like the oil separators were upgraded. The part numbers are 177-010-87-12 and -88-12. -87-12 seems to be a replacement for 177-010-50-03.

ffejnotrom

What if I just drove around with the oil fill cap off 😂???? ill put a little screen or coffee filter with a rubber band over it to keep large amounts of oil from spraying all over the engine bay, and that should reduce internal pressure?!?! .....I kid, I kid....

Pop the hood on my 200,000.00 G63..... "whats that coffee filter for?" .... "shhhhh, it's a prototype... custom... you wouldn't understand"

Sunbeltgolfer11

Is your extended warranty through Mercedes?

sixfive

good to know parts used on your repair were upgraded items! I need to check my recent receipt to see if mine were the same numbers or not . . .

whoover

Yes. Bought it when I bought the car new. (Talking about the extended warranty.)

TDoug1

I came across the attached document from MB that explains the difference between the LS1/LS2 motors.

Sunbeltgolfer11

Thanks for the response. There was someone earlier that had it done under factory warranty and it seemed like they wouldn't include the oil vapor separators at that time. I plan on keeping my 2021 so I'm going to pick up an extended warranty sometime soon, just in case.

Sunbeltgolfer11

Thanks for posting. It is an interesting read and one I haven't seen before.

HBerman

Definitely a good idea! The factory extended warranty covers all the parts that were originally part of the initial warranty except for appearance and wear and tear things ( brakes, etc). There is a question about the oil vapor separators as to whether they a under the warranty in general or a part of the emissions warranty. The emissions warranty is only for 80,000 miles AFAIK.

chassis

Interesting. I reviewed some of this document, and note that the M177 LS2 has many identical architecture details as the Porsche/Audi EA825 4.0TTV8. And fewer details, but strong resemblance to the Porsche/Audi EA839 3.0T/2.9TT V6.

MB and VAG engines both have:
- CSO (V8s)
- camtronic/shiftable cam
- 2 HPFP (V8s)
- no separate cylinder liner (V8s, Porsche V6 has iron liners)

I will keep working through the document. Pretty cool what tech docs you can find.

AMGTorn

Alright, story time and this might be fun one for those wondering if the RMS fix is one and done.

In my case, it was not (and I haven’t even bought it)

Context: So currently in the market for a 2019 E63s sedan, and found one in the spec that I want at a local dealer. Service history looks good, but just before the warranty expired in late June 2023, the car suffered the infamous RMS leak. Dealer had the service invoice for this. Both oil separators and RMS were replaced under TIPS DOCUMENT: GI01.20-P- 074257.

Replacement parts were:177-078-54-00 OIL SEPARATOR

177-078-55-00 OIL SEPARATOR

012-990-50-04 CAPSCREW W HEXAL

DRIVE

177-010-37-08 CRANKCASE COVER

13 000000-001144 HEXALOBULAR BOLT

1 Q-1-03-0005 G 40 ANTIFREEZE

2 002-989-06-03-12 TRANSMISSION FLUID

CORE CHARGE W

1 177-201-09-00 ELASTOMER MOLDED SEAL

012-990-50-04 CAPSCREW W HEXAL


Work on this was completed in July 2023 and put on the lot.

Fast forward to now (December 15) and just before I finalized paperwork, I had the car brought in for a PPI.
Car since July had about another 1000km put on.

PPI found that the RMS was leaking. Again. Service is looking to replace it all again via the same parts above, which obviously has thrown a wrench in my plans.

So I ask my fellow denizens, do I just cut and run from this deal and car and never look back at this point?

Cause anecdotally, it might be a new ball game now.

Thoughts?


Warranty service invoice July 2023 (1st RMS)

RMS replacement for Dec 2023 part 1

RMS replacement for Dec 2023 part 2

HBerman

I'm confused. Did you already purchase the car? You state you hadn't finalized the paperwork? If the dealer stills owns the car, what's the issue of having it repaired again? Perhaps the first repairs omitted a necessary step. Why would the separators need to be replaced after 1000km? Doesn't sound correct at all. Also, the part numbers for the separators have been superceded. The whole thing doesn't feel right. These parts don't fail in 1000km. So, either the work wasn't done originally or it was not done correctly. Me, I'd be walking away from the car and the dealer.

AMGTorn

Luckily enough, no. I was in process of finalizing the purchase, but with an SA that’s been pretty open about sharing details. They have a refundable deposit and that’s it at this point.

Maybe the repair the first go around was dog poop for all I know. The quote (picture 2) does have tech notes that the RMS did go out again with a note that they were replaced earlier in July.

What is the new part number for the updated separators and would that be a permanent fix?

whoover

Unless they use the new parts, I'd say no way. Even this MB site shows the separator updated.
https://mbparts.mbusa.com/oem-parts/...MTAtNTAtMDM%3D

chassis

Note the "Tips" document. I googled and didn't find it.

MB knows there is a problem, obviously.

The M177 is off my list of future candidate engines/vehicles, primarily because of the vapor separator issue, but also because of a handful of less egregious but no less annoying other problems.

This rules out all current MBs for me, when also ruling out the failed 48V system.

VAG and BMW current V8s seem "somewhat" reliable. Much more so than the M177, M157 and M278.