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Hello all, new to the forum but not new to Mercedes.
I recently traded my c230 for a CL55 AMG .
I have been looking into cooling upgrades and have found a few,
-splitting the engine coolant resevoir/ ic line
-adding an ice box in the trunk
- adding a second resevoir in the engine bay somewhere a bit larger than the small bmw res.
My question is
am i an idiot for thinking the window washer fluid resevoir could make a good resevoir for my supercharging cooling system??
obviously i would lose function of the washer fluid- i dont care.
i know it is a low pressure res for the washer fluid- i am posting this assuming it would be thoroughly sealed with a pressure cap if need be.
let me know what you guys think!
i know this is a very vague question, i just figure theres a reason people dont do it.
thanks,
Kenny
You are right, it's not designed for pressure, and would absorb under hood heat. A custom replacement tank insulated with 1/2" neoprene would suffice. I had a custom inter cooler res. tank i my Lightning that replaced the washer tank, but had a small washer tank inside so I still had washers and a large inter cooler tank all in one spot. Could be done in a CL but a custom fabbed aluminum tank would be spendy.
thanks for the reply!
and badass car in your sig Matt
i work in the oilfields and there are many shops around here that could probably tig me a tank together if i was to take dimensions from my washer fluid resevior- i will definately keep that idea in mind.
I have not studied how the washer res works exactly,or what else there is to it. i know that it looks like there is a little more to it than one on a "normal" car.
is it logical to think i could have the tank dipped in some kind of sealant or something (i will research to find out what could work) and then on top of that wrap the tank for insulation and possible stick with the same stock design res for the inter-cooling system? i would have to add spots for lines to enter or exit possibly but im confident i could handle that.
sorry, but im stuck on this idea after trying to figure out where i could add a resevoir just to realize i have a perfectly good one sitting right there that i don't even use- washer fluid lights been on for a month lol
thanks!
kenny G
I think it's really a good idea to convert that to an intercooler resivor, other than the heat issue. After adding my killer chiller I can tell you the HVAC intake plenum is pretty big, and it is somewhat insulated from the engine compartment heat. It might be an option to custom make a tank and put there if you are not adding a killer chiller. If I didn't already put my killer chiller there I'd seriously consider a custom tank in that location. Then you can keep your washer tank and use it to hold your Meth/water mix when you are ready to really drop IAT's by adding meth/water injection.
I think it's really a good idea to convert that to an intercooler resivor, other than the heat issue. After adding my killer chiller I can tell you the HVAC intake plenum is pretty big, and it is somewhat insulated from the engine compartment heat. It might be an option to custom make a tank and put there if you are not adding a killer chiller. If I didn't already put my killer chiller there I'd seriously consider a custom tank in that location. Then you can keep your washer tank and use it to hold your Meth/water mix when you are ready to really drop IAT's by adding meth/water injection.
Speaking of methanol there is an abundant supply of it at work lol we use it on most locations for the injection lines coming from our big compressors going down hole. love the smell of that stuff when its leaking onto the ground.
thinking about it, i guess we use it for the opposite reason at work because we use it to keep the high pressure lines from freezing.
anyway,
when you say the HVAC intake plenum, do you mean where the cabin air filter is?
i saw how one person on here took that out and added a res, but i live in the dusty *** new mexico desert so this isn't really much of an option... and also explains why i'm so worried about ugrading my cooling system- temps are nice right now- around 85 degrees today, give it a month and we'll be in the hundreds for the rest of the summer.
I want to move back to Alaska
Kenny
Passenger side, behind the fiber wall separating the engine from the cowl area you will see a plastic grill with a rubber seal around it that seals to the hood so you only draw air from outside into your heating system. That is a big plenum designed to keep water and debris out of the HVAC system of the car. Ill take some pics of it in a few hours for you.
Got my ic pump in the mail yesterday and ive got two days off work so i decided to pull the washer res out and figure out how im going to seal it.
Ill post pics and ifo as i figure out how im going to do this.
And also ill be trying to find out how to fool the level sensor for the washer fluid res, unless i just keep it for a coolant level sensor actually!
This wont work after thinking about it, it wont hold enough pressure. So out with all the sensors.
Ive been looking at differents typs of dips and seals but havent found what im going to use yet.
Any advice is much appreciated!!
Kenny
I will be adding a drain at the bottom with a line and a valve that is easily accessable to drain fluid at the track of it were to get hot.
I have to find a u to reconnect the coolant line with the washer fluid heater line bypassed, but thats easy.
I will be fitting a cap somewhow and im wondering is if i need some type of pressure cap like a radiator or a vent at the top or maybe both ?
Kenny
Wanted to add some more pics
This works great. From looking at my torque app, my intake temps have dropped from 130-150f to 77-90f bring the highest ive seen.
*update- intake air temp up to 147f after idling for 20 mins with ac on with dash showing 68f ambient air. I figure this is because i still have the washer fluid res heater hooked up, this wool be removed asap.
Just drove 3 hrs and kept checking the blower it never got too hot to keep my hand on top of it. Much better than before when i couldn't touch it at some points.
I replaced the ic pump at the same time with the bosch 10.
I sealed all the holes in the washer res with bolts and nuts on the inside. it works, but could be done better by someone with better resources and more time than myself.
No leaks.
I figre it holds between 1.5 and 2 gallons, but i could be wrong.
Before i left today i topped the res off with some cold water, i drove 3 hrs and the water was still abnormally cold . This is great. I can being going 80 and the power i have is unbelievable ,not like before when it would have to shift up to really go.
So far, i havent found a downside of using the washer fluid resevoir to keep the ic system cool, besides not having washer fluid to spray. Its great, and im not sure why more people dont do it!!
Im about to drive another 3 hrs, when i get home first thing i will grab my thermometer and check temperature of the washer fluid res.
Kenny
Well someone has to be the first. You have me seriously considering a custom, dual purpose tank similar to what I did with my Lightning now. It had a small washer tank, held about a quart, the rest of the tanks was a was an inter cooler reservoir. I'm thinking of spraying some of this on my inter coolers: http://www.lizardskin.com/car-ceramic-insulation.html It might work good on your tank as well.
This isn't a bad idea honestly. Just hope the washer tank holds up to the pressure of the I/C system. Personally I can't do it because I run my methanol out of here and I can't go without any washer fluid.
That being said A+ for thinking outside of the box and the effort. But I do have to ask, you didn't wanna just run a FTP Engine Bay Tank? I know it's more expensive but at least you can keep the system relatively stock.
This isn't a bad idea honestly. Just hope the washer tank holds up to the pressure of the I/C system. Personally I can't do it because I run my methanol out of here and I can't go without any washer fluid.
That being said A+ for thinking outside of the box and the effort. But I do have to ask, you didn't wanna just run a FTP Engine Bay Tank? I know it's more expensive but at least you can keep the system relatively stock.
Thank you!
I thought about adding a tank in the engine bay but i wanted something at least 1 gallon in size, and didn't want to see anything out of the ordinary.
I live in the new Mexico dessert, 110f days in the summer and dusty as can be, so messing with the cabin air filter is unacceptable for me. Plus my washer fluid level light had been on on the dash some i bought the car, i never used it.
I would have ran a trunk tank, but I've got a blow through box back there with 2 jl w6 12s and my girl wouldn't like it if she had to ride with the baby stroller in her lap. Lol
I did this very inexpensively, under 100$, and i got all my parts at the local parts stores ( 5 of them)
As soon as i get home im going to bypass the washer fluid res heater and see how my intake temps are after , compared to having hot coolant cycling through the lines.
One other thing i have thought about, and i would absolutely be stealing a page from the killer chiller book, if i could split my ac lines and plumb them into my washer res heater, making it an ic res cooler?
Matt i saw that lizzard coating you posted, ill see about ordering some tonight!
Thanks!
Kenny
I just thought I would chime in since this thread currently seems to be a bit more active than the intercooling thread. I have been going through the same process of trying to decide how I am going to upgrade my intercooler circuit on my S600. Lots of options out there...and I was very close to trying to implement a killer chiller style setup, but ultimately decided against it for now. I have refrigerated intercooling in my other car and it works great, but there are lots of very specific and inconvenient modifications to make it so effective.
The reasons I decided against it on the Benz being the complexity of the system and the sheer amount of energy it takes to chill the water. I think it makes a lot more sense up in Alaska, or the UK where it's relatively cool ambient anyway...but trying to get enough performance out of the A/C condenser when it's 100 degrees and humid just doesn't seem likely (I have a hard enough time just cooling down the black interior on a hot day, let alone if I was trying to chill my water).
What I ultimately decided is to upgrade the ambient heat exchanger for normal driving, and to add a trunkmount ice box and bypass loop for the heat exchanger for racing. I will eventually be building my own that will fit inside the spare tire itself (will have to relocate the tool kit) so I can still actually carry a full size spare, and have all my trunk space)...but for now, I just got the frozenboost one (for $80 who can complain). The distinct advantage ice offers is the phase change cooling. 1 lb of ice will absorb 144 BTUs during the melting process before the temperature even changes a degree. So you literally get 144x the heat removal capacity of the equal mass of water. I calculated it's going to take roughly 1 lb of ice per 100 hp to keep your temps right around freezing for an entire 1/4 mile run. That's an oversimplification but it's an easy figure to remember and is close enough. 6 lbs of ice may sound like a lot, but it really isn't. Water is 8lbs per gallon and ice only expands like 4% or so, so you're talking about being able to squeeze enough ice for a pass into a gallon or so reservoir, and your final water temp is still going to be in the mid 30s F.
The problem with killer chiller type setups is that you are getting no active cooling during a run, so you need a ton of system capacity to maintain decent temps for a full 1/4 mile, even with pretty cold starting temps. At least with an ambient heat exchanger, you are actively dissipating those BTUs as they are being removed, but with an AC based chiller, the AC isn't running at WOT so you're just depending solely on the thermal capacity of the water in your system (which is fine if you've got several gallons, but if you've only got say a gallon, the temperature rise will be pretty extreme). It really just depends on what your goals are and what the acceptable temp rise is. 1 gallon system capacity (since we're comparing to 6-8lbs of ice, which is around one gallon) might result in a 60 degree F or so temp rise during a 1/4 mile (500hp average output for 10 seconds, 200 degrees of cooling). If your starting water temps are 50 degrees you may end up at 110. If that keeps your intake temps lower than the point the computer pulls timing/boost and that was your goal then that's great. But the air density difference between 110 F and 32 degrees F is around 14% so there's definitely still a lot of power to be had from intercooling beyond the basic requirements. Granted, that's at the same pressure and to some extent you will have lower boost at cooler intake manifold air temps...but also less parasitic loss from the supercharger and pumping losses through the engine.
I haven't given up completely on the A/C setup, but I just decided that it's going to take more planning and work and research than I have time for right now...I kind of want to just get something in place so I can actually hit the track this year. Here's what I have in mind for my car as a temporary setup. I am pretty sure I can actually get slightly bigger tank capacity in a reservoir that fits inside the spare tire itself, so when I have the time I will be building a custom tank for sure...but I should have some results/feedback of the frozenboost tank install within a few weeks time (still waiting on some of the fittings/parts).
Zeph, you do know that the CL has the same A/C system as the S class, which comes with a separate evaporator for the rear seat passengers even though the CL does not have that second evaporator. May be why the Killer chiller may work better on a CL than on some other cars whose A/C system is not able to handle the extra load as well. I'm going to try and add some phenolic spacers under the intercoolers and spray them with Lizard shin thermal barrier coating too. I think that will improve my Killer Chiller function even more.
Zeph, you do know that the CL has the same A/C system as the S class, which comes with a separate evaporator for the rear seat passengers even though the CL does not have that second evaporator. May be why the Killer chiller may work better on a CL than on some other cars whose A/C system is not able to handle the extra load as well. I'm going to try and add some phenolic spacers under the intercoolers and spray them with Lizard shin thermal barrier coating too. I think that will improve my Killer Chiller function even more.
Yeah, I have been pleasantly surprised by the capacity of these variable displacement A/C compressors in the past (on my other car) so it wouldn't surprise me if the compressor was up to the task, but either way the condenser is going to be a huge limitation with the ambient temps that I have (unless I spray water on it). I really like the idea of A/C based chillers for practicality/having it function all the time (be able to generate your own icy cold water), but there are a ton of hurdles and drawbacks as well.
Even without worrying about the limitations of the stock system, the argument for ice is the same. It's hard to ignore the phase change cooling. It literally takes 144x the mass of water to endure the same heating for that 1-degree during the melt. If you start a run with 32 degree intercooler temps on an A/C based setup, you are going to get a significant temperature rise during the run. Now if you've got 3-5 gallons in the system it's going to be pretty small, maybe 10-20 degrees. If you've only got one gallon though, it might be 60-80 degrees. The time to cool back down is going to be the same kind of curve. More capacity keeps you cooler during the run, but takes a lot longer per degree to chill back off. So it's definitely a balancing act.
It would be great if a portion of an A/C chilling setup could actually create ice. The setup in my Buick certainly created plenty on the original evaporator core, but there wasn't a whole lot of surface area to melt it as quickly as the water was heating up. Designing a separate exchanger with pure water, and mixing a little antifreeze in with the main system would allow you to have differential freezing points and be able to generate ice (if you could get your system to operate to that low of a temp...may be a challenge on 134a) and take advantage of the phase change cooling in an A/C based setup as well. Of course the same penalty applies when freezing the water as well...it would then take a LOT of energy to get your system below that 32 degree point.
By the way, thanks for the lizard skin idea. I was trying to decide how to best insulate my intercoolers in a space-efficient manner, and that looks like a winner given the space constraints.
One other thought is to relocate the washer reservoir to the trunk.
Install a coolant reservoir in place to service the heat exchanger. The material is more durable and will not leak as quickly as the WW tank.
The WW tank is likely to leak from from the washer pump grommets and fill cap.
My CLK trunk is a busy place like the CL so keep any possible spills away from the electronics.
Took the car back to the track yesterday,
With the eurocharged tune, new intercooler pump, and the ice box setup in the washer resevoir, i dropped over 1 full second.
Last week i couldnt get under 14.4 seconds.
This time i drove an hour to the track and the ambient temp read 85 most of the drive. As soon as i got to the track last night i did a run with no ice and ran a 13.4, then i added ice and ran at least 8 times with consecutive 13.3, every time except for once i ran a 13.2.
My 60 times are down to 2 now!
I didnt experience heat stroke once. When i would get to the end of the 1/4 mile to turn around last week i would have no power, this time i could turn the corner with the tires spinning every time!
I was getting ice to last me two runs before it was all melted.
I talked ro the guy i bought the car from yesterday and he said he's got a set of pullyeys he had on one of his kompressors a few years ago and if i want them to look up the price online and he'll give them to me for a steal.
Guess i know whats next, maybe he'll just add it onto my tab😂
Kenny
Great improvement! So you were able to run ice in the windshield washer reservoir and it worked alright, huh? I've got some questions for ya.
1. Was this in a completely stock loop otherwise, or did you bypass the heat exchanger?
2. Is your pump controlled by the factory logic or do you have it wired to run whenever the car is running? Not sure if the control scheme is the same on the V8 vs the V12, but the V12s the pump only runs when the intake temps get above a certain value. In that configuration I could see the ice lasting a lot longer, but obviously the charge temps would not be as low.
I'm surprised the ice is lasting so long if your pump runs all the time and the heat exchanger is still in the loop. Considering the capacity of that tank is what, a gallon and a half? I would think the ambient heat exchanger would melt it in a hurry. I guess that goes to show either how ineffective the stock heat exchanger is, or just how powerful a cooling agent the ice is.
I was looking at your pics again, and am a bit confused as to how it is set up on those cars. So the factory setup is just a T into the intercooler circuit from the reservoir? That would explain the ice lasting a lot longer. It seems to me like it would have a drastically reduced rate of heat transfer between the ice and the rest of the circuit if there is not any significant flow through the ice box.
I'm assuming since there is only one line, it more or less functions like an expansion tank for the system and the only flow through it is going to be as a consequence of the smaller air bleed line. Still a ton better than stock, but I'd love to see what the difference would be with a flow-through ice box. Do you have any data about your intake temps with ice in the tank vs just ambient?
Great improvement! So you were able to run ice in the windshield washer reservoir and it worked alright, huh? I've got some questions for ya.
1. Was this in a completely stock loop otherwise, or did you bypass the heat exchanger?
It is completely stock form, i followed the video on how to split the ic system, just plug the one coming from the bottom of the engine coolant resevoir and reattach it at the bottom of the washer fluid resevoir where i added a 5/8 output for it.
The 1/4 in nope you see is for my bleeder line, run down towards the ground with a valve to drain hot fluid.
2. Is your pump controlled by the factory logic or do you have it wired to run whenever the car is running? Not sure if the control scheme is the same on the V8 vs the V12, but the V12s the pump only runs when the intake temps get above a certain value. In that configuration I could see the ice lasting a lot longer, but obviously the charge temps would not be as low.
I have not changed the pump to key on power yet, but from what I've read that is the way to go with these also.
I'm surprised the ice is lasting so long if your pump runs all the time and the heat exchanger is still in the loop. Considering the capacity of that tank is what, a gallon and a half? I would think the ambient heat exchanger would melt it in a hurry. I guess that goes to show either how ineffective the stock heat exchanger is, or just how powerful a cooling agent the ice is.
I'm headed back to the track right now to run brackets, if i can make some cash maybe I'll buy that bluetooth puck that i haven't been able to justify purchasing yet lol
Thanks
Kenny
I was looking at your pics again, and am a bit confused as to how it is set up on those cars. So the factory setup is just a T into the intercooler circuit from the reservoir? That would explain the ice lasting a lot longer. It seems to me like it would have a drastically reduced rate of heat transfer between the ice and the rest of the circuit if there is not any significant flow through the ice box.
I'm assuming since there is only one line, it more or less functions like an expansion tank for the system and the only flow through it is going to be as a consequence of the smaller air bleed line. Still a ton better than stock, but I'd love to see what the difference would be with a flow-through ice box. Do you have any data about your intake temps with ice in the tank vs just ambient?
Your exactly right! This is just an expansion tank and tbh when i was installing it i was not really convinced that just hooking one line up would work, i was thinking there would have to be one line in and one line out.
This way would be much more efficient i believe . Watch the video i posted above and it will make more sense.
I do not have info on air intake temps with ice yet, my phone died after my first run 👎👎
I'll be at the track in an hour and I'll do some logging and get back with you!!
Just adding the resevoir dropped my temps from 140s to double digits for the most part. Ill let you know!
Kenny
Your exactly right! This is just an expansion tank and tbh when i was installing it i was not really convinced that just hooking one line up would work, i was thinking there would have to be one line in and one line out.
This way would be much more efficient i believe . Watch the video i posted above and it will make more sense.
I do not have info on air intake temps with ice yet, my phone died after my first run 👎👎
I'll be at the track in an hour and I'll do some logging and get back with you!!
Just adding the resevoir dropped my temps from 140s to double digits for the most part. Ill let you know!
Kenny
Very interested since I will be trying to get my ice tank going for next weekend's midnight drag strip event. It's going to be a stretch to get the trunkmount tank up and going but a washer fluid tank I could set up pretty easily very quickly if that's all that's really needed for good results. Mine is leaking at the pump anyway so I haven'thad working sprayers for a while now. I must admit, I really like the idea of replacing the engine coolant loop in there with an AC chilling coil...although that doesn't really provide much heat transfer area it would be a pretty elegant solution utilizing stock parts/space in a different way.
Also, for my pump hotwire I just added a wire to the ground trigger of the relay and ran it to a nearby ground in the engine bay. Essentially the pump now runs whenever the ignition is on. I need to redo it more professionally but it works and took like 2 minutes to hook up. I literally just unplugged the relay, wrapped a bit of wire around the trigger terminal, plugged the relay back in, and ran that wire to a ground. Super easy to rig up if you want to try that at the track tonight.
05-09-2016, 09:46 PM
