cntlaw

- There is no replacement for displacement
- Bounded to be the killer/gentleman in Hugo Boss suit
- Low revs high torque gentle exhaust sound = peace and quiet
- 4 doors over 2 = Accessibility ( good for packed dense rainy city )
- Roomy backseats no catch hell from mother-in-law and kids

cnt
p.s. Even that bothers me less and less now as I get used to ease the gas on bumpy roads, I am still not convinced a supersport C55 is that more 'comfortable'....

KompressorKev

i appreciate the M3's motor and its race-derived configuration of inline six with individual throttle bodies, nikasil coated cylinder heads, variable valve timing, 8000 rpm and forged crank, con rods, and graphite coated pistons, but....

i like your first statement: no replacement for displacement. both M3 and C55 are great cars but the torque man...C55's looking very good now. a black c55 is just butter

neoprufrok

Good points... I like point no 5 the best though. My in-laws were here this past weekend and squeezing them into our C-Coupe was difficult at best. They didn't like it at all - and I got an earful for it.

M&M

Well both cars have the strengths & weaknesses, but the displacement story is bull****. I think it has been proven that an M3 vs C55 is a driver's race. One the day either one could win, both being stock.

TAXFREE

Both are good cars, I was looking at a C55 for something bigger than my M3, but you know to each his own.

But every time I drove a C55 and got then back into my E46M3, I knew the M3 was the right choice, Ill buy a SUV for more space.

I'm not saying the C55 is better or worse, I prefer technologies that do not exist in the C55 namely SMG, shift lights, 8000 rpm and an arm rest big enough so I'm not banging my elbow on the pillar. Nothings is sweeter than banging a 6th to 3th downshift and hearing the engine rev match in .060 of a sec with your foot to the floor and your then your a missile. Yeah I wish I had more torque, but who dosen't.

- There is no replacement for displacement, What is this the 50's again? The german's have found a better way


Plus, I do way too many track days to turn the tide toword a C55. I've driven at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, NHIS, Mt Tremblant and Road America with local chapters of the BMWCCA, this one aspect has allowed me to meet a bunch of great people I'm friends with off the track.

cntlaw

By no means of into a debate, you are right but that's 1972 not quite the 50's



and this is from 2005's:


Has the German really found the 'better way'?

MAYBACH 57 ENGINE
Type: twin-turbocharged and intercooled V-12, aluminum block and heads
Bore x stroke: 3.23 x 3.43 in, 82.0 x 87.0mm
Displacement: 336 cu in, 5513cc
Compression ratio: 9.0:1
Engine-control system: Bosch Motronic ME2.7.2 with port fuel injection
Emissions controls: 3-way catalytic converter, feedback air-fuel-ratio control, auxiliary air pump
Turbochargers: 2, KKK
Waste gate: integral
Maximum boost pressure: 18.9 psi
Valve gear: chain-driven single overhead cams, 3 valves per cylinder, hydraulic lifters
Power (SAE net): 543 bhp @ 5250 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 664 lb-ft @ 2300 rpm
Redline: 5800 rpm
DRIVETRAIN
Transmission: 5-speed automatic with lockup torque converter
Final-drive ratio: 2.82:1

cntlaw

Absolutely. Let me say this for the rest of the group.
Have we ever suspected AMG engineers' ability to turn stones into gold ?
It is the MB's smart brains in the marketing and finance department think anyone deserves to drive a MB like a Playstation Rally would have to be one with plenty of luck and fortune.






For those who want more innovations from MB:-

cntlaw

SL73 -> SL55 -> SL65 -> ?


Yes! Is that true that the displacement will be difficult to be managed down if we are talking about 'street cars' ?

Jon200

two nights ago I took a ride in my boss's M3 coupe 6 speed with 19". Not the first time I have sat in one. He gave me a run down of all the technologies in that car because hes an absolute car fanatic.

I must admit the M-engineers have put a TREmendous amount of effort into that motor, the only downside to it, according to my boss, is the engine is made from cast iron which is a little heavy, well thats what he thinks anyway.

IMHO if the C55 has all the technologies that the new 3.5L V6 block has, it should be hitting well over 430bhp

Thai

Forgot another major weakness of AMG...no LSD...a big no-no for trackers. When will AMG learn, especially when their engines have so much torque???????

noka

Any idea if they will ever add LSD to the lineup? I'm considering AMG after owning many BMW's but wouldn't do it without LSD and I don't want to go aftermarket.

Thai

Not anytime soon...i have a newly published brochure for the AMG cars, including CLS55, SL65, CLS65, SLK55. None of them have LSD. What a waste of engine power!

FrankW

when was the last time they made the car that was appeal towards the track? ppl who want track car doesn't buy AMGs or the Ms or the Audi S for that matter. They could pick up a Miata and have way more fun on the track than the Germans.

I can assure you 90% of the ppl who bought the M3 simply because it's the M3. They bought it because ppl recognize it, most importantly chicks recognize it. Believe it or not there's ppl w/ Ms come up to me and ask "what's an AMG?"

I guess that's how 2500 units per yr vs 6-7000 units per yr differs.

Thai

Sorry, that's called supply and demand. Just like my G-wagen, it took forever for my dealership to get rid of 2 G500's. If there's no demand, then the supply will be low. BTW, my MB dealership is not going to order many more G's in the future...too low of demand and thus cost them too much to have on the lot. Simple economics.

There are more M3 produced than C55 because there's more demand for it. More demand = more supply = more $$$$$. Why wouldn't BMW take advantage of this?? I would. AMG could/would produce that much IF demand was that high...trust me, they could/would! And don't tell me that they can't...because these "exclusive" AMG mechanics are now able to make AMG engines for both AMG AND Chrysler!

LSD is not just for the track. It also serves to put power to the ground more effectively...like when launching. Maybe that's why C32/C55 is a tad slower than M3 in a launch?? Maybe that's because ESP can't be shut off?? You also don't need to track your car to "feel" LSD's effects. When you go around a corner at high speed, LSD can also give you a more positive steering feel. With traction control, you just pray that it does not cut engine power. Or how about when you get onto the street from a dirt road and your rear tire slips?? With traction control, it cuts engine power...making you a sitting duck for on-coming traffic.

Don't forget that none of MB cars can shut off ESP completely. The only way is the dyno mode which also turns off everything else, including ABS.

There's no excuse for AMG not supplying LSD. None. You look at other brandnames...most other sports car has LSD as an option or standard equipment. Miatas has Torsen LSD as an option. Ford Cobra has 'em. Lexus IS300 has Torsen. Caddy CTS-V has LSD. Subaru wagons have LSD...so, it's not just for track...Lsd is also good for all-weather driving, especially when combined with stability control systems. Now...why can't AMG have it too???? Don't forget the premium that AMG charges!

neoprufrok

You're wrong about the supply and demand part. While its true that there is a higher demand for M3's and S4's, there is still a high demand for AMG's. Here where I live people were still paying MSRP or higher for the AMG versions of certain cars. The problem lies inthe fact that the AMG factory can only put out so many engines at a time, as each one is handbuilt by one technician. MBZ also chooses to keep these cars more exclusive for a reason - its partly why we pay a slight premium for it. You may think its easy to ramp up production, but its not at all. And furthermore, you don't htink the demand for Ferrari's and Lamborghini's aren't high? They are, but they will not compromise the namebrand by building tons of them. They make more of a profit by keeping the car exclusive, than whoring it out like the S4 and M3 - and I see so many of them it makes me sick.

About the LSD - AMG cars can be used on the track, but its not necessarily for that purpose. I track my A4 - but I know that I can't beat other cars on the track - but at the end of the day, my car is more comfortable to get back and forth between the track and my home than an EVO is. If you wanted a dedicated track car - get one. And M3's get eaten alive on teh track LSD or not by Evo's, STi's, Vette's, Porsche's... etc.

I've had many cars with LSD's, and none of them have impressed me that much in aggressive street driving situations. At the track, this may be an issue - but come on, how many people track a 4 door sedan designed for luxury first with the side benefit of taking out 97.5% of cars on the street? I'm not sure how you think that you're driving at 10/10ths on the street - that' ssimply dangerous and if you have tracked and autocrossed you know that you never come close to that on teh street. Street driving is 9/10ths at best and thats where the AMG cars are geared to.

Simply put, you have a choice. If you don't like the fact that AMG doesn't try to fake a "track" persona, don't by one. By another car that has an LSD. Me, I'll be enjoying are upcoming C55 without LSD and feel comfortable with the fact that I have a kick *** car - and I can take my heavily modded A4 out to Thunderhill, Sears Point, and Laguna for 10/10ths driving thrillls.

FrankW

SRT-6's getting the left over engines from the C32/SLK32. It'll only be in production for couple years at less units than the C32/SLK32 at their peak. Unlike the M cars that are put together along side the regular BMWs, the AMGs are assembled at their own small factory. Only one guy works on each individual engines and only few people work on putting a car together.

LSD or not, the C55 runs the same time as the M3 on Nurburgring from what u said before.

Thai

Pontiac Aztec can be considered "exclusive" too. So can my G-wagen. Even i admit that the G-wagens don't sell well...thus, it's "exclusive." I just hate people blaming the M3 for being around too much. THINK. M3's are STILL selling near or at MSRP. When i got my M3 in 4/03, everyone was paying MSRP. So, how is BMW not making as much profit as AMG/MB???????????? Am i missing something??

You mentioned Evo, STi, Porsche, Corvettes...well, ALL OF THEM have at least AWD or LSDs. You just compared the M3 to the top track cars in the world...THANKS. Evo and STi have BOTH AWD and LSD's! I thought that we were talking about M3 vs. C32/55??

C55 AMG is basically a C230 Sport with a big engine to go down a straight road?? If you think so, then you won't get an argument from me. I agree. So, is AMG only mean engine power?? I thought they messed with suspension (shocks, springs, sway bars)?? If so, then for what purpose???

Another point...with AMG cars having TREMENDOUS torque/power, i sincerely believe that LSD's will help you get power to the ground more effectively. Traction control is a dumb, half-assed way, especially when it cuts engine power!

If you are in self-denial about the lack of LSD, then so be it. Why did you buy the C32/55 in the first place?? If you want comfort, then you should have gotten the Caddy Deville!

AT LEAST, M cars try to keep it's racing heritage. AMG is the one that is "faking" it to their owners.

As for your A4, i think that it up in the air. A heavily modded M3 can easily hang with you. As some magazines have pointed out, the M3 (in stock form) can hang with or even beat S4 on the track...even on a wet track! So, LSD is pretty nice, isn't it??

Thai

However, i thought that the M3 are made in a different plant...just look at the door sticker on all M3's. AMG technicians can make more engines if they wanted...thus, SRT-6 are getting the C32 engines, which means that there are ENOUGH technicians to make BOTH C32 engines and C55 engines, among the other AMG engines...assuming that the engine is the limiting factor in making AMG cars.

I thought that AMG cars are made alongside regular MB cars...except for the engine?????

FrankW

only for cars sold in South Africa. All other cars are assembled in AMG's own facility w/ the only the shell provided by MB.

just check out the pictures on this page http://eurocarsintl.homestead.com/amg.html

you can see that there ain't that many technicians. at least from the picture.

ultraseven

It seems that the M3 VS C32/55 forums just never die, and the flames are well, sometimes fun to read

I am going to take the neutral route and I can tell u I don't swear by either brands, period. I am an owner of an 04 C32, and I think it's a wonderful car for what I need, with LSD or without. I am not planning to take it to the track, and even if I bought an M3 I wouldn't do it either. However, it's almost amusing as to hear from someone who somehows tries to convince me that the M3 is a better car, in every way, shape or form. It's a great car, but if you swear by it, more power to you.

My reply is, "I will just take a 911 Carrera S/Turbo with its 'technology'". The perfect reply is, "well, the former costs 30K more and the latter cost more than twice the price."

To that reponse, I will kindly bring up the Corvette C6. It uses springs from medieval times and yet it can do this (quoted from TopGear with the Stig's power lap times ):

Chevrolet Corvette - 1.26.8
BMW M3 CSL - 1.28.0

neoprufrok

Not sure why you want to take it personal. I'm not here to argue with anyone, but for you to come here and make statements that reflect a lack of understanding of the different type of customers that the M3 and the C55 tailor to, is not helping the discussion.

As I've said, and continue to say, an AMG is not a car designed only for the track. It does well on a track, but I would take an M3, modded A4, Miata, etc to the track before I take an AMG to the track. Why are we buying a C55? Because we want a fast car with reasonable handling capabilites at 9/10ths driving on the street. I have modified my A4 to a high level - I have no doubt that an M3 can still hand me my *** on the track - but that doesn't mean I don't have fun with my car. I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you.

AS for exclusivity, it is a factor for some people. I think an M3 is a great car, but I won't buy one because I don't want a 2 door and because I like the fact that my C55 is fairly unique, even here in the Bay Area - where there are more german cars than hondas/toyotas where I live. It's my opinion on this, not yours, so you won't change my mind.

AS for profit, reread my post. I said they make more profit if they produce less. I wasn't comparing to the M3's profit margin. Mercedes has determined the point at which it is most feasible for them to make a profit on AMG cars - while using the AMG line to showcase the ultimate Mercedes in each chassis designation. Of course BMW and Audi make more profit on the S4 and M3, but they need those cars. The A4 and 3 series are the highest volume cars for Audi and BMW respectively - they will sell as many as they can build. Audi and BMW don't have the lineup that MBZ does in the upper range, and thus cannot rely on profit at that level - thus, MBZ does not have to worry too much about selling as many AMGs as possible.

I mentioned the STi, EVO, Vette, Porsche, etc because it illustrates the fact that you can always find a car with more "track" equipment than another car. These cars are developed on the track. Why doesn't the M3 ride lower I could complain. Why isn't it lighter? Why don't they use a bimetllic rotor? You can always complain about a car not having enough "track" in it.

I never said the AMG was only about engine power. Clearly, its not simply a C320 sporot stuffed with a bigger engine. It has upgraded suspension for the precise reason of giving a high level of driving enjoyment at 9/10ths driving. Çlearly at 10/10ths its harder to drive as fast as an M3 - but i tcan be done as evidenced by its Nurburgring times. I can live with this as I won't take the C55 to the track. Having an LSD helps maybe at the highest level of handling on a track. I've employed a Quafie LSD on my previous B5 S4 - and it only helped in extreme cornering maneuvers. Why would AMG put that in and charge more for it when it doesn't really add that much? I agree that it would be nice to have an LSD - but it isn't necessary and that's not going to keep me from buying it.

As for why I'm choosing an AMG? Our family needs a high powered 4 door sedan with mercedes quality, looks, great performance in a small package. Our only other option is an S4, and we don't like it as much. I could ask you why did you buy an M3 and not a Porsche? Why did you buy a G Class and not a Hummer? Its ridiculous for you to imply that a C55 is anywhere close to a Deville.

I'd like to see where you pulled the "M3 can hang with an S4 even on a wet track" business. That's just crazy talk. Quattro in those conditions is dominant, and no M3 will hang with an S4 on a wet track. My A4 won't take out an M3, I acknowledge that. But I wasn't going for that route.

It seems like you're trying to rationalize your M3 more than anything else. If that's the case, why don't you just be happy you have a great car? If I wanted a 2 door german coupe - I'd get one too. But I don't, and most on this board don't either - so attacking the C55 really doesn't do much other than to show us that you need your ego stroked.

dsC32

There are a lot of MBZ owners who track their cars. Many of them are on this board (NormC32, CarlC32, etc.) I ran my C32 at Indianapolis Raceway Park twice, Summit Point, Heartland Park approx 9 times, Mid-Ohio, Virginia Int'l Raceway, and BeaverRun twice. These events were sponsored by MBZ clubs, BMW clubs, Audi club, Porsche club. I have considered getting a track car, because a dedicated car can always run away from the big sedans, whether an M3 or C32/55, as can Porches, Evos, etc, especially in the turns. Its what you want to drive that counts, there is no right or wrong.

oggle

The M3's ride is one of the most unpleasant things to sit through. The C55 is still quite comfortable. Considering the fact that 99.9% of any car's time is spent on city roads and not the track, it sure pays to have a more comfy ride. Plus, on the track the M3 doesn't exactly beat the C55 either. Think of the LSD as a "handicap" for the M3.

noka

I don't think I was being fair when I said I would not consider a car without LSD. It's just that I've owned so may with it, I thought it was a given that most cars would have it also. My E36-M3 and E39-M5 both had LSD. Did I need it? Certainly not for tracking because I never did that. I always thought it would be better even for normal driving in certain situations (e.g. wheels catch the edge of the road and lose traction on one side, hit a patch of ice and limits wheel slip on that side, etc). I'm new here, never having owned MB but considering it for a variety of reasons (one being that the new BMW's are so damned ugly :-) I'm not sure I see the logic in MB not including LSD since the additional cost would not be that much and it would only add to performance IMO, even normal stret driving.

Rgds,
Norm

Thai

I am not taking it personal...since i don't own the M3 anymore. It was a great car while i had it. I am sure that the m3's ride is not as cushy as the C55...but i didn't care much because the tradeoff is it's excellent handling.

There was a european (British i think) magazine test a few months ago showing that the M3 was slightly faster around a wet track than S4. I will try and find it for you.

Your other comments are very true...much clearer than what you said before. The only thing i disagree about is the profit margin for AMG. Like any company, profit margin is everything...you think that MB cares about your image or exclusivity factor??!! Why do you think C230 Sport has most of the body kits of AMG, including the perforated brakes?? They don't care. PROFIT RULES. AMG is no different than any other car company. Ferrari and Lambo...maybe, but then i don't many millionaires around. Supply and demand.

Your argument about AMG not having competition is true for SL65/55, CL55/65, and maybe even E55 too. M5 is getting rave reviews, which should take some profit away from E55.

The C55 is another story. C55 AMG is in the heart of competition. Think about it: M3, S4, CTS-V, Corvette C6/Z06, and many more to come. This is gonna be a big battle. Competition is heating up. Why do you think AMG went with 5.5L V8 instead of sticking with supercharged 3.2L V6 until the model run ends??? Competition is heading for big displacement. Same goes for the next M3...with it's V8 engine. And don't forget the few potential owners who went with STi and Evo.

Therefore, AMG would gladly get more profit if it could...but competition is strong and the profit pie is being cut up into many pieces. BMW M is losing money too. Only the newcomers are getting more profit, like CTS-V.

Oh yeah, sorry about the Caddy Deville comment...just illustrating a point. :p