pinebaron

Anyone upgrade their front/rear/subwoofer/center dash speakers and drive them with their current HK Command system?

I am contemplating replacing front and rears with Focal speakers around $1000 installed. My goal is to replace OEM speakers with high quality sensitive speakers to provide an even better sound experience. One complication I can think of is locating 2 ohm speakers since I believe 2007 W211 uses 2 ohm speakers but I cannot be 100% sure.

Can someone also confirm this vehicle uses 5 1/4" front and rear speakers?

m.manguera

in the same boat...but going for nakamichi system. lets hope to find our answers.

amdeutsch

Keep in mind that the HK system is an equalized system taken the OEM speakers as well as the interior into account. Replacing the OEM speakers with others can be a dual edged sword.

pinebaron

There is certainly a risk of the entire effort being a waste of time and expense. A better method may be to use external amps using current speaker outputs as inputs for the amps (through adjustable line level converters).
One would still maintain current equalization, eliminate need for 2 ohm speakers (there is a much wider variety of 4 ohm speakers available) and above all increase overall volume output. I am looking for at least 25% increase in output where full volume is unbearable, requiring one to turn it down. The current system at full volume is fairly loud; yes just that. Its fine when the CD, radio or ipod provides a high output for a particular recording but useless for the average cd or ipod recording where one feels a need to crank the volume up to make it sound louder.

I think its fair to think a complete high quality audio upgrade to include all speakers/tweeters/sub-woofer, amps etc. will cost around 2k-3k at a minimum.
That will certainly do the trick. I am thinking now. A DIY job will save me several hundred.

born4sky

2 ohm sub ... I believe Memphis makes them.

I think you will have better luck with new amps though.

amdeutsch

And you are still running the risk that the equalization is going to mess up the sound of the new speakers. But again there is no guarantee it would.

pinebaron

I feel 2x2channel or 1x4channel amp and 4ohm component speakers (for front) and two way speakers for rear plus ofcourse a subwoofer and amp is the way to go. I am currently narrowing down my options/brands etc.

For equalization I can use Cleansweep components in addition to Line Level controllers etc.

Theroretically it is a relatively easy DIY job, besides the fact I am an electrical/electronic engineer and spent years in the home audio/tv industry though now working in IT; it certainly makes DIY much easier. I'll keep everyone posted on my purchase decisions. I will also attempt to build a complete pictorial installation since there is so little information around. I know so many want to upgrade without upgrading Command etc. but don't really know what to do or what will finally work to their individual satisfaction.

First step is to establish if I have 5 1/4" or 6 1/2" speakers. There is conflicting information around and I cannot determine if these are 5 1/4" by just peering through the speaker grills.

pinebaron

The rear door panel came off quite easily, though removing the speaker can be challenging. Step by step instructions for removing door panel only, are available in this forum.
I have not seen one for removing the speaker; I removed it anyway.

The speakers are 6 1/2" and much to my surprise these are fairly good quality speakers. 85mm x 15mm magnet which compare to some expensive after market speakers. Looks can be deceiving though; I have heard some people blew their speakers on OEM equipment.

As a first step in the upgrade, I will be ordering one speaker pair only. I will initially test one speaker on the removed rear panel prior to removing front door panel/s and installing these.

Choice of speakers: I am looking at Focal 165KRX2 or 165KR2. Focal is a premium brand. These speakers are not cheap but let me tell you why I selected these.

1. 165KR2 is rated 80W rms/160W peak while 165KRX2 is rated 100W rms/200W peak; both can handle considerable clean power.

2. Both speakers have a sensitivity of 93db. What this means is that these require a lower input signal to produce a louder sound output. Theoritically these speakers should sound louder than my OEM speakers. I will be the guinea pig.

3. Both are 2 ohm impedence; a perfect match for use directly with OEM amp. 2 ohm impedence will allow me to derive maximum power from an external amplifier, when installed (an external amp needs to be designed for 2 ohms); more of that later.

pinebaron

I managed to remove the front driver door panel; took less than 10 minutes. I will spell out the gotchas etc. when I do a writeup. The front speaker has comparatively less clearence than the rear speaker though it seems it will be enough for Focal K2 Power 165KR2 6-3/4" 2-Way Component Speakers which I ordered from Crutchfield today. I intentionally ordered one pair to check installation compatiblty; I have 30 days to decide.

For others contemplating a similar install, I want to warn you about cheap, fake Focal speakers being sold on the internet; please don't fall for that scam even from so called reputable online traders. I can provide details if anyone is interested.

My vehicle electronics is a little upset with two door panels missing; it will all come together soon . I need to complete the first part of the upgrade this week.

pinebaron

The Focal speakers 165 KR2 's arrived today. A test fit in the enclosure and temporary install in the front door with the window rolled down all the way confirmed the speakers will fit easily without enclosure modification or use of spacers. I think this is a very big victory. Crutchfield indicate the speaker will not fit since their information indicates 1.5" speaker depth available while in reality there is more than 3" depth available making it suitable for most aftermarket speakers. I will eventually publish a compatibility list; none exists to my knowledge though I could be wrong.

W211 speaker and speaker ring/enclosure is one unit even though the speaker is held onto the ring via four torx screws. The speaker ring has a two prong socket on the outside where the mid-range speaker harness is attached. On the inside of the enclosure, the socket terminals are soldered on the speaker terminals. The first step is to very carefully unsolder the terminals (a solder sucker comes in handy to suck the solder) without stressing the speaker or the socket terminals. After removing four torx screws holding the speaker to the enclosure, the speaker needs to be pushed out (using some force) out of the enclosure. I did that last night.

The Focal speaker is heavier due to a larger magnet, nevertheless it sinks perfectly into the enclosure. The new speaker holes line up fine though speaker terminals do not line up with the enclosure socket terminals; I will solder short pieces of #16 wire.

Next I'm working on enclosing the crossover somewhere in the door; I'll explain how in my next update.

I will be eventually publish step by step details with photos.

pinebaron

Here is an update. I have next Monday off for Columbus Day, I decided to order the amp from Crutchfield to keep me busy on Monday (this weekend is full of family functions )

Rockford Fosgate T600-4 150Wx4 rms into 2ohms; a lot of sound. I did not order a subwoofer amp yet.
Dynamat 10435 Xtreme Door Kit, 12 Sq. Ft., 4 Sheets+
StreetWires Power Stream Single Amp Kit, 4 AWG, Red
StreetWires ZN5450 Zero Noise 5 16.4-ft. 4 Channel Patch Ca
Scosche SLC4 Speaker to RCA Four Channel Line output converter

I will bring these into my narrative as I use them.
Rockford Fosgate T600-4 can be bought much cheaper on ebay or non-authorized dealers. I chose to purchase it from a dealer at a higher price

pinebaron

I installed the new Focal speakers and discovered these were lacking in response in the low frequency ranges. Even though Focals were incredible in midrange frequencies, the overall response was around 2.5 db lower than OEM and almost 5db down on 40-70 hz range; it is true to say that these speakers like to be driven. I like to hear base from my front speakers even at low volumes and I was not hearing enough. The speakers are packed and will be returned to Crutchfield tomorrow. I am in the process of ordering others; I will let you know what I decide.

rob13572468

thats because the oem mids are actually mid/midbass drivers... e.g. designed to play lower to compensate for the lack of output in the oem woofer...

The focals will sound great but you will need to use the cleansweep as you planned.. set the eq on the cleansweep so that the output is back to flat and then aftermarket amplification...

pinebaron

You are no doubt correct in your assessment of Focals but I like the bass from front speakers hence returned the Focals. I identified two component speakers that may satisfy my requirement, Boston Acoustics SPZ60 and JL ZR650-CSI. I am leaning towards the JLs for their response down to lower frequencies; again this needs to be verified in the car. I am very patient and will not stop till I get desired results.

In the meantime I've commenced rigging the amp though I have not decided where to install it. There's a nice open space next to the NAV drive; I may install behind the back seat for easy access.

I also noticed speaker wire colors were not all exactly as shown in STAR TekInfo wiring diagram, despite I managed to identify correct twisted pairs leading out from the AGW without removing it.

pinebaron

I only have one word to say guys: UNBELIEVABLE

As I reported in a previous post, I returned speakers I had bought. Not finding time during the week I only finished wiring one channel, front left through the new amp late last night and immediately realized tremendous potential of OEM speakers.

The good news is I finished wiring/cabling all four channels this morning and the sound I hear is 100% distortion free (even at full volume, set to level out at 109db of sound at center armrest postion to further prevent permanent ear and speaker damage) as opposed to OEM 102.5db at the same position for the same music cd I used before. 6 DB means 4 times the sound (3db is doubling)

The Fosgate 600-4 has so much more sound in store but my goal was to achieve a level of sound that would literally hurt my ears and it did; my ears are still hurting right now. The best part is the only change is to sound from 4 OEM speakers which handle the additional power I'm putting in; the OEM sub, front center speaker or any others that exist, are still being driven by OEM amp, all of which now sound great, together with sound amplification from four door speakers. I have not measure watts of audio driving door speakers but that is much less relevant than an ability to provide additional decibels.

DO NOT Underestimate OEM speakers; I find these are comparable to some high quality speakers out there though replacing them with Boston Acoustics or JLs is still an open option; I feel it is unnecessary for anyone just looking for more audio.

I wish I could get few of you hear the results and it may be several days before I confirm OEM speakers continue to stand the abuse; I have a strong feeling they will work out fine. I have absolutely no hesitation in ordering new speakers but I am excited and want to prove there is much left to derive from OEM speakers with a resonable amount of spend and some decent DIY skills. Even though I have an open budget, I don't intend to go crazy because I want others to learn from my example.

What is left now is to build a bracket or brackets to anchor the new amp in the space next to NAV drive. I continue to take pictures of all the work I am doing. Even though I am a qualified engineer, I did adequate research prior to each step or steps in the entire process. The most difficult part of the install was dealing with speaker cables coming out of the AGW because I did not dismantle or remove anything and I will show you how to do it; yeah I spent some time lying down in the trunk but that was not an issue; its because speaker wires out of the AGW are fairly tight and cutting them, installing insulated male and female crimp connectors (16 in all after wires are cut) in the confined space requires some patience; only once did I drop one connector behind the NAV and it took several minutes to retrieve it. But guys it is easy; I never refer to anything as being difficult.

By the way I still receive a full spectrum of sound frequencies (logic 7 or Stereo) though I will run detailed tests using a test cd. I did not feel a need for Cleansweep or digital signal processor; all controls continue through OEM Head Unit, nothing changed.

pinebaron

Upgrade is done for now and I will pause a while. There is absolutely no physically visible sign of an upgrade. No wires, no subs, controllers nothing; everything is put away next to NAV in the rear (see photo prior to beginning project and one when I was close to done). The only down side is everything needs to be preadjusted but I don't expect to change settings until and if I replace door speakers.

In the meantime, I will listen to the new level of audio, appreciate/critique quality of sound from OEM speakers and decide if I should upgrade door speakers. I don't really need more base but for those of you who cannot live without extreme base, you should just get an amp and initially drive OEM subwoofer to establish its capacity and durability. 10" subs are readily available.

I've taken loads of pictures but need to sequence them properly, add a little narrative prior to publishing them on my web site; give me a few days.

pinebaron

http://www.systembiz.com/W211Speaker...lifierinstall/

Let me know if you have any questions and I will explain or add more pictures to the site.

Kardacian

Pinebaron,

nice work and very helpful pictures, I am sure many will appreciate. COuple of questions for you.

1. Are you going to stay with the OEM speakers or change them out?

2. I am assuming that if I install an amp as you have I do not need to change the speaker wiring in the doors. Just insert line leveler and amp between the agw and door speakers? Depending on the results I may change the door speakers later.

3. Whats your plan on a Subwoofer?

if you have more pictures love to see them. Nice work!

pinebaron

Thanks.

1. I will stay with OEM speakers for a while until I have had time to digest the new sound levels; this may take a while since I don't use the car for my daily commute. I will almost certainly try JL ZR650-CSi and Boston Acoustics PRO60SE both of which are top of the line; it will be down to listening preference and hope one of these comes out on top.

2. You have the correct idea. Go with my choice of amp and line leveler. This will permit you to enjoy HK sound without sacrificing quality with once only line level and amp level/crossover adjustment.

3. I have not found a need for more bass just yet but I would go for Rockford T500-1bd amplifier and a Rockford Fosgate T110D2 Subwoofer.


More pictures added to original list
http://www.systembiz.com/W211Speaker...lifierinstall/

pinebaron

http://www.systembiz.com/W211Speaker...lifierinstall/

To take additional pictures I had to remove the side panel etc. and while I was at it, I increased the amplifier gain even more and OEM door speakers handled the extra power easily; it needs to be clean audio power. I have not had time to verify # of audio watts actually reaching each door speaker through Rockford Fosgate 600-4 amplifier, but experience tells me it is well in excess of 100W RMS per door, which is now extremely bad for your ears.

Even though OEM door tweeters are adequately handling additional audio power, I feel a need to turn them down a few DBs at higher volumes; I will soon publish comparitive output graphs . Since this thread is not about just replacing everything, not messing with or bypassing HK equalization and not installing additional audio equalizers, I will add an attentuator (easily done) to control tweeter output. Aftermarket speaker component systems usually come with adjustable crossovers that have slope and attentuation switches.

SterlingE55

pinebaron, do you have a wiring diagram for the AGW? Thanks for all the great pics and info. I will definitely be staging my audio upgrade differently now. I've already ripped out the stock subwoofer and added a clarion amp and type R sub, however, I will be redoing the sub configuration. This was just a temporary fix from what I had laying around. Right now I am leaning toward mounting two 10" Memphis s-lines on the rear deck. Probably overkill but I'd rather have too much and turn it down than too little and want more. Thanks again.

pinebaron

I subscribed to this link for a day which permits you to print pdf files.
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/home.jsp
Its worth $18 for a day because it gives you access to your precise vehicle wiring (using your vin #) amongst a million other things.

If/when I replace the subwoofer, it will be a 10" going into the OEM spot. I will however check out the OEM one's capabilities first. Limitations (at least in my 07 W211) are the AGW/amp and not the four door speakers. I intend to change the 3 1/2" front center speaker too but need to initially check physical space/depth limitations of that area.

SterlingE55

Thanks for the startek link. I didn't realize it had pdf's. I have been using epc online for a while now. There are some threads out there where members have measured the depth on the front speaker. It isn't much. I ended up just taking it out because I couldn't find a speaker I liked well enough to replace the OEM one. I've got the pdfs for the rear shelf removal and front speaker grill removal if you would like them. I'm sure you can look them up on startek though.

Kardacian

Service Manual.

I purchased this for my E350. It has lots of useful information and worth it since it has diagrams and procedures. It even includes schematics. I have found to be very useful in figuring out where things are.

http://www.mercedestechstore.com/w211.htm

emilner

I was looking to replace the center speaker to improve the soundstage on my 212. It is a 3.5" DUAL voice coil! Ugh. I cannot find anyone who makes one. Right now the soundstage is terrible, female vocals come from the drivers side mirror. I wanted a higher sensitivity two way 3.5 to increase the output, now I am stuck. Any suggestions?