Benz333

I am debating between leasing the cheaper C250 Coupe or ponying up the extra money for a new C350 4Matic Coupe. To any C250 users out there, how do you think the RWD can handle northeast winters, especially with snow tires? Do you think the 4matic is a significant enough difference to be worth the investment?

cswang

Northeast is a big area. Here in South Jersey, I was driving summer tires year round with my 335i (benefit of being able to work from home). I was able to drive as long as there was less than 1/2" of snow which was most of the time. I think I'll be able to manage better with my RWD 350 with its touring tires. Just not enough snow to justify snow tires here.

Sportstick

Michigan gets some significant snow (near Detroit), and I have two MBs, one rwd, one 4MATIC. I put winter tires on both and do just fine, although the 4MATIC sometimes gets going a bit better, but the differences are small, and braking/turning are indistinguishable. This past winter, it was so mild, I never put snows on my C300 Sport (rwd) and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus did the job on very light snow. However, for planning purposes, you don't need to carry around the performance and fuel-robbing weight of 4MATIC all year, but I would plan on swapping tires for Blizzak WS70 or similar in case significant snow shows up.

acr2001

4Matic does not add any considerable weight. I wonder how much actual HP is lost compared to RWD.
I actually prefer 4Matic because I can apply power quickly in nearly any situation without losing it due to wheel spin.

C350 Sport Sedan Curb Weight (from mbusa.com) 3,615 lbs
C300 4Matic Sedan Curb Weight (from mbusa.com) 3,737 lbs

Sportstick

This may be a matter of perspective, as 122lbs may not seem like much, but to an automotive design engineer, that is huge, both for the weight, per se, as well as for the distribution. Engineers work at the gram level, as weight has a cascading effect, as by the time a heavier component has to be accelerated, braked, and suspended, it creates higher mass components for those tasks. Take a look at this article and realize this success is all over about 61lbs for vehicles in the same class as our C Class.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...e-bmw-3-series

I personally realized the difference when given dealership loaners. Discounting the difference in feel for an automatic vs. manual transmission, the weight effect, especially concentrated in the front, is noticeable and was not an improvement. The weight shift forward does increase the tendency to understeer and adds to a more ponderous steering feel. The C 4MATIC feels just like a smaller version of our E 4MATIC, while the rwd C feels much more nimble, responsive, and fun to drive, attributes likely even more valued in a coupe.

If the OP's concern is driving in snow, that benefit does not seem to justify the cost. I understand the sense of security you have for quick power applications, but I have not experienced any wheel spin during WOT unless on a low mu surface, such as rain or snow, where a more judicious throttle is called for in any event. A C250 certainly should not have that problem either.

Bottom line to OP: drive both and see which one you enjoy the most for driving most of the time. A second set of winter tires (tirerack.com will send them to you mounted and balanced on low cost rims, so you're just a lift and 20 lug nuts away!) will take care of the other season.

Breitling65

Cheapo, strange and very risky opinion, NJ getting snow and ice every year I am leaving here for 12 years. Last winter doesn't count but one before was horrible for snow and ice. Ricky because driving on summer tires while winter you could kill yourself and also someone else driving or walking near by you. Also would never understeand people spending 50k on car and save on good tires or gasoline grade etc
You don't like winter tires for winter, just get good all seasons instead of summer.

cswang

As I said, I work from home and park it with anything more than a dusting or so and then only if I need to go out. With the heavy snow a couple years back no one should be out snow tires and awd not withstanding. And Michelin PS2 Sport runflats were $400 plus per tire, hardly cheap. How much are yours?

DinB

Don't be a cheap ****, put some real rubbers on it when it gets cold!

jctevere

Will you "get around" in the winter in a RWD with winter tires, sure. I just hope you are a skilled driver and don't think you can just mash the brake/accelerator. However, with that said, pony up and get the 4Matic, you will be happy with the v6, but not only that, I LOVE how my C300 4matic handled versus my RWD C250. It is SO much better in the rain/wet too, tires remaining consistent. Overall, I like the ride of 4matic much better - get it!

Sportstick

No great surprise that our history of opposite answers continues!

However, the high level of driving skill you attribute to us rear wheel preferrers (without false modesty on my part) was fairly widespread for generations before you...all wheel drive in cars is a fairly recent addition in automotive history from the larger perspective. For quite some time, we've done more than just "get around" on winter tires...ask a parent or grandparent!

Let's be sure we are talking about the same attributes. I suspect your reference to rain suggests you are specifically discussing traction, and not overall vehicle handling. Yes, all things being equal, taking a constant amount of torque and splitting it into four can produce superior traction at the contact patch, as the tendency to exceed the tire's capability is reduced. This mostly helps in getting started from a stop. However, there are no principles of physics which allow for adding over 100lbs of weight to the front of a well balanced car and improving transient steering response and understeer/oversteer balance.

I think your strongest point may be about the 4 cyl vs. V6 engine. I have not driven the 4, but have certainly read mixed reviews and the car mags have not been a fan. It seems BMW's new N20 engine has been a far better received execution of a 4 cylinder turbo based on a dozen or so review articles.

So, the question remains....is it worth carrying around the extra weight with it's consequences all year long for a few weeks when changing to winter tires (which we know you are unwilling to do) will more than suffice? Either outcome will work to one degree or another, as you and I both have experienced...one just has to convince themselves of which solution they will enjoy more. Of course, if MB made a V6 rwd coupe with a stick, the answer would be much easier!

mis3

I live in Toronto and visit Montreal often. I drive a w209 for the past 7-8 years and 4-matic was not offered for w209.

I get by with dedicated winter tires and wheels. When there is a snow storm, I work from home.

I like the ride and feel of my RWD and I have never driven a 4-matic. I always thought that the extra weight and feel/ride would be different.

Breitling65

Summer tires are stone hard when temperature drops below 50F day time, either you drive little or lot it is still same dangerous for people around you. Run flats are original equipments for bmw, purchasing such horrible tires to replace original would be another huge mistake, besides P/S2 are $250 max in TireRack unless you are driving exotic sizes ...
I normally own two sets of tires/rims on any of my cars, Blizzaks for winter and anything I like for summer.

jctevere

Hey Sportstick, good to see you around these parts in the Coupe forum. I got a C250 RWD now, haha. But in all honestly, I miss the 4matic I used to have... I just feel "safer" driving it. I can mash the pedal anytime I want and never lose wheel traction, dry or wet. Also, 4Matic does greatly help out with going around turns during the wet/snow (preventing fish-tailing). The extra weight is virtually un-noticeable if you ask me, you do feel it a bit in the steering, but I liked the "heavier" steering wheel feel on 4matic then the lighter RWD feel, felt sportier.

I was also lucky this winter as we got NO snow... But that probably means this next upcoming winter season will be harsh!

The bottom line is this, physics behind me or not - my pants in my seat and my feeling while driving the vehicle is that 4matic is much better than RWD - at least for the aggressive style that I drive, winter, rain, and about even in the dry. I would highly suggest getting 4matic - especially on a lease.

Sportstick

Thanks...I missed our debates on the sedan side, so I was lucky when I became a moderator that I got the entire 204 as my "beat", sedan and coupe! I'm here to fight for truth, justice, and rear wheel drive manual transmissions!

mis3

I love the ride and feel of my 2004 CLK320. It feel heavy, solid, centered and secure at low and high speed.

For example, I drove a Mazda-3 recently and I was literally all over the roads. Probably I was not used to the car, I had to make steering corrections all the time. After driving the w209 for many years, I did not feel safe in this Mazda at all. My previous car was the last generation of Honda Prelude (200 HP). It was a fun car at the time but the ride and feel were lacking especially when compared to a w209.

I am wondering if being nimble and sporty mean that I would loose this safe feeling. Sure I can schedule test drives for both cars but it is hard for me to judge in 30 minutes drives.

Another point is I tend to drive the car for many years. I am probably old school, I think a 6-cyl is more reliable and last much longer than a 4-cyl.

Sportstick

I understand the gist of your comments, but I think you are blending different issues to cause your concern.

Platform rigidity (literally the resistance of the basic architecture, floor pan, etc to twisting) and mass are major contributor to the sense of solidity you enjoy. A comparison between a MB and a Mazda 3 (essentially a Ford Focus clone) is a bit unfair, as the Mazda/Ford platform is quite good for its segment versus others such as Civic, Corolla, Elantra. I think your experience only shows that you are not a customer for entry level C segment (small economy) vehicles.

However, if you compared to a BMW 3 series, you would find a car more nimble and sporty than your MB, but without any loss of the sense of solidity and security, although pure ride comfort might deteriorate, as their chassis calibrations are more taut. Within MB Class, you can sense some of this kind of difference between the Sport and Luxury models, both derived some the same highly rigid platform, but with struts and springs calibrated to deliver a more sporty versus more comfort oriented ride.

Then, in addition, we have the entire issue of steering response. The complexities of type of steering system, fixed versus variable ratio, amount of boost, and how the nominal spec of chassis set-up contributes to feel and feedback can fill a text book. MB has taken the path of a more highly assisted (easier to turn) power steering system which is somewhat more isolated and has somewhat less feedback than BMW. The two companies' engineers have different philosophies on what feels/works "best". But, for any given system, as one adds weight to the front of the car, such as the 100 or so pounds of 4MATIC, the ability of steering the car to immediately change the path of a higher mass object deteriorates. (Recall...an object in motion tends to stay in motion...particularly on its original path!) So, a car with additional weight up front doesn't "feel" as if it responds as quickly. A car without that weight doesn't feel less safe as its nimbleness (ability to change direction quickly) improves...some would argue the opposite, in fact.

As for engines, yes, that thought is old school from the idea that a 4 has to "work harder" to keep up. Engine durability is such that, barring design defects, and if well cared-for, I know of no current data which separates engine quality or reliability based on number of cylinders. Of course, one can get into databases where issues such as folks who buy the bulk of 4 cylinder cars have lower economic power, and spend less on maintenance, with predictable consequences, but those variables simply muddy the water. All modern engines are developed with common and high levels of durability. The engineering durability/quality/reliability objectives, for one example, at the car company where I used to work, did not vary between 4 vs 6 vs 8 cylinder engines.

mis3

Thanks Sportstick. I read your post a few times and I learned something. I never understood the term platform rigidity meant until your definition (resistance of the basic architecture, floor pan, etc to twisting) and how it contributes to the overall ride and feel.

To clarify, I made a lot more steering corrections in the Mazda because the car felt light and "not centered". As for the C-class, I had many C sedans loaners before and I did not mind the ride at all.

Maybe I am getting old, I do prefer the comfort ride now. Coming from a w209, maybe the E Coupe is more suited for me.

I remember when I took driving lessons many, many years ago, the instructor said never buy a 4-cyl with air conditioner!

jctevere

Hey Sportstick - just out of curiosity, have you driven a C204 coupe yet... I find it handles and rides SO much better than my 2009 C300... The ride is much smoother and the steering is much "stiffer".

@mis3 - I know exactly what you are talking about, I like the feel of a heavier steer, although its "harder" to make turns, etc, I like that on the highway it stays straight and won't just turn the wheel over a bump. Having 4Matic improved this positive feeling (for me), now having RWD it is a bit "lighter" and I don't like it as much.

As far as 4cyl vs 6cyl - I would go for the C350, I like the 4-cyl, but it just isn't the same as a v6, and the fuel economy isn't much different at all. Not to mention, if you keep your car for a while, the 4-cyl has a turbo which as we know, can complicate things down the road. Lastly, you can only get 4matic on the C350 coupe!

mis3

Really? The gas mileage of C250 and C350 are similar? I guess if you drive with the turbo on all the time, the gas consumption will not be good.

I have not driven a 4-MATIC before but I highly doubt if I would buy one. I always have dedicated summer and winter tires. For the few snow-storm days in Toronto, I would simply work from home.

jctevere

The turbo is always on when the car is on, there is no option to turn it on or off. MPG for the C250 is 21/31, whereas the C350 is 19/28. Not a big enough difference to really justify sacrificing a v6 for a 4cyl + turbo... With that said, I would still get the C350, you don't have to get 4matic either if you will have dedicated tires for each season. I would do it for the dual exhaust tips alone... And to say nothing of the fact that the price difference (at least in USA) is marginal at best, especially if you were planning on getting the premium package anyway...

Sportstick

The driving instructor probably had a good point back then, as I recall. I took driver training in (ahem) 1970. But, things have come a long way from an "Iron Duke" in a Chevette!!


I haven't driven a new 204 Coupe, but sounds like fun, and it makes sense. Marketing probably shouted an order back to the kitchen to spice it up a bit for the coupe psychographic, and engineering whipped up some new bushings, spring rates, maybe even dialed in some more steering effort, among all the other platform improvements which get swept up in a mid-cycle renewal.

mis3

Again, I am old school. The older turbo only would kick in after certain RPM. I remember I tried a Saab turbo back then and the turbo only started at over 4K RPM (if I remember correctly).

In Canada, the price difference of the two base C coupes is $10K. And the E350 coupe is another $10K more.

Sportstick

You're both right. Think of the turbo like a windmill, in essence, always "on" in that it is ready to spin when a wind comes along. The heart of the turbo is a small windmill, which spins more as exhaust gases pass through, in turn creating pressure for the fresh air/fuel mix going into each cylinder. As the car goes faster, the turbo spins more and reaches the point where its effect is very noticeable. In older days, the rotating blades were larger and heavier, requiring more engine speed, to create enough exhaust, to spin the blade to create the turbo boost, which was then felt quite suddenly, as in Saabs. Now, with smaller and lighter blades, turbos spin more easily at lower engine speeds, providing smoother and earlier assist. The turbo, itself, does not consume any additional fuel, but an eager right foot looking for the feel of the response, will.

samin1972

I remember those days, and I remember my dad having a 4 cyl and when you put the AC on you can feel the drag on the engine - I remember someone saying that the AC can take as much as 30% of the engine power....could have been crap - those days these things were relatively new.

However, I think things have changed. I have the C250 - and with the AC on there is a little difference, not enough to be pissed off, but doubt it is 30%, of course there is a MPG sacrifice.

I came from a 04 Audi A4 Quattro (1.8T 4 cyl), and before that I had a Subaru Legacy AWD - so this is my first RWD in awhile, and to be honest the first I will ever have had in the snow. I test drove the C350, and the C250 - and in Canada/Toronto - an 10k difference is not as easy to convince yourself to make the plunge.

The C350, as everyone said, does have a more linear acceleration, and the C250 kicks when the turbo kicks in. There is one thing that I noticed, from my initial test drives of both cars - the C250 on corners, if taken "hard" can get loose on you - something I did not notice on the C350 - and that is on dry roads! Fun, but on wet/snow, you need to know what you are doing.

I have yet to purchase a set of Winters for my car (just got it 1.5 months now), but as the car came with 17"'s I want to get 19" summers and 17" winters, and probably sell the stock tires...going to cost me 3500 + tax, so as soon as I can convince the wife, it shall be done!

On another note, great forum guys, I learn a lot here, and really turn here as my first source of information! Thanks.

BEH

I have a 2006 BMW 330i that has dedicated 17" Snow Tires mounted on Wheels (Purchased from The Tire Rack).
I live north of Toronto in the snow belt and only time I have ever been stuck in snow is when I try to back through the snow bank at the end of my driveway after the snow plow goes by. (the car gets hung up)
The MB salesman told me I will have the same traction and control with the rear wheel drive C350 and not to bother with the 4matic.
Too bad the 17" wheels I have won't fit the MB so I will sell them next fall.