Buellwinkle

Evosport did the dyno and I pretty much got what I expected. This was done with no air filter, everything else stock, 16" wheels and stock exhaust. Temperature was 24c, dew point 16c, barometric pressure 29.97 (based on OC Airport, 10 miles south)

edvpt

Thats very impressive, +30 HP, +25 Torque. Any idea what the A/F ratio was?

Mike T.

Wow, your rear wheel HP for the stock car seems quite high - at 192 nominal HP, the drivetrain loss according to your results would be under 13%, which seems quite low.

The dyno results are pretty phenomenal for the pulley'd car. It must be a rocket now. How has fuel economy been affected?

Buellwinkle

Edvpt, the A/F is the primary reason I did the dyno because of issues I've heard of on other pulley kits with a leaner than normal A/F ration. Yes, it's lean at about 14:1 (before was about 12.5). A chip should clear this up and get you about 15hp more from what I've heard. My guess is that Kleemann did not run into this issue because of the altitude in the Denver area. High altitude makes you car run richer than normal. The ECU measures the O2 sensor and adjusts fuel delivery in theory. In real life I've found otherwise, both as a pilot and as one that had a summer home at 5,000' vs. my sea level home.

Mike T., My results on the stock dyno are average. One magazine got 176 stock. I've seen from a low of 159 to a high of 176. Every car is different, every dyno is different and the conditions that you run the dyno is different.

young

isn't there a type of dyno that compensates for varying conditions? (like temperature, humidity, etc)

are you saying that the dynos posted by kleemann and others are still affected by ambient conditions? or that those dynos were not the type that compensates?

wow, a 159 - 176 hp range seems to be quite large. is that range normal amongst cars? is your car automatic or manual? i was told that automatics like mine lose more hp at the wheels than manuals. my car feels like i have about 174hp but that is a total SWAG.

Buellwinkle

There was no correction factor entered as that setting is fairly neutral. Kleemann used a correction factor as he should of for his altitude. That corrects for difference in altitude on HP, what it doesn't correct for is if his car ran richer in Denver than our cars do closer to sea level.

My issue with all pulleys on the coupe is that it will make your car run leaner. I wasn't pinging so it's not damaging the motor but it is leaner than stock and it may ping on a hotter day and may not. 14:1 is not extreme. Vadim was nice enough to drill a sensor into the exhaust pipe before the cat so that he can get accurate readings. Most dynos use a tail pipe sniffer.

My recomendation to you Young is to plan on a chip. To maintain your Renntech warranttee it should probably be a Renntech chip (you don't want them pointing fingers if feces happens). No matter what you do, get a dyno with a A/F measurement to double check.

peterrrrrr

What are the warranty issues? What will the dealer say when you bring the car in for the next service interval with a larger pulley ?

Brandon @ Kleemann

What were the results with the air filter?

BTW- you will probably never hear your car ping unless there is a serious component failure where timing control is shut off or runs a fixed value. The last 1000 rpms of your dyno are tanking- going down sharply. They should platau- this may be the reult of timing being taken out. It may come as no surprise that when the ECU starts to "hear" detonation it will retard timing to the point it can then trim fuel and open the bypass/close the throttle. This looks to be happening on your dyno- giving you a very lean indication on the probe, but the car is under greatly reduced load.

Iceman's C230

I got couple questions. Was the dyno run tested at sea level? Also here in Calgary i run at Race City Speed Way which the elevation is 4000FT above sea level. Now with this (ASP) pulley set up my car would be running Richer at these alltitudes, would this harm my C230 let's say at a HOT day at the track where some times get Humid.

I am asking because i was concidering getting the pulley from ASP. I had a ASP pulley on my Supercharged 96 Mustang which i was very happy with. But i am little concerned without the Chip upgrade if it is a good idea to just have the pulley installed on a Supercharged car. Without the Chip how does the car figure out the proper Air and Fuel mixture?

Buellwinkle

Remember when you said that the the air filter doesn't make a difference? Well it does, 5.9 hp and 2 ft-lb torque worth. My filter was really dirty and that may account for it. I hope that the ITG air filter will get close to the filter free dyno results. I can see why some of the pulley kits come with an air filter.

I know that above 5,500 rpm power tanks but that's what's unusual about yours, it doesn't. But every single dyno I've seen with a pulley kit is more like mine than yours. The only things that I can think that is different with you is that I've heard you have a Kleemann exhaust and that maybe helping in that high rpm range or the altitude is getting you a richer mixture.

Buellwinkle

Yes, in Huntington Beach, CA at Evosport. That's near the beach and as close to sea level as you can get.

In theory, the ECU reads the O2 sensor for air fuel mixture and the ECU then adjusts fuel delivery to compensate. This is necessary as you change elevations as the air is thinner at altitude and the ECU would lean out the mix to keep it the same. At the track, with carburators, you would take a couple of jets with you and lean out the mix that way. The ECU is probably not as adapt at going the other direction and making it richer than normal for sea level. In your case you are on the good end of the equation, by going to higher elevations you will be able to run richer. Of course the downside is you'll lose HP big time, about 3% per 1,000' of altitude for any motor.

The aftermarket chip designers alter the fuel and timing curves to take advantage of the boost by adding more fuel when needed and advancing timing at times in the curve that allow it and retarding it in places where it would likely ping and pull back timing anyway.

Spyke

A dyno doesn't "compensate" for anything. And the dyno isn't affected by ambient conditions either. (Well, ok, that's not entirely true; they do need to be calibrated, but stick with me here...)

In general, the only thing a dyno does is measure torque. Some are fancier than others and can motor the engine and vary load levels and stuff, but it's main purpose in life is to measure torque. (Though some dynos don't even do that!)

It's the ENGINE that's affected by ambient conditions. And these days it's the software that compensates for anything. When people talk about the dyno compensating for something, what they really mean is, the calculations made to report horsepower are "corrected" to estimate what the engine might have done under "standard" conditions. The further you are away from those conditions when you do the run, the more suspect I'd be of the numbers. With all the electronic games the ecu's play now, there's no telling what all changes when you go from Denver to Death Valley so trying to correct from one to the other isn't an exact science.

Dynos are best at A to B comparisons. Same dyno, same day if possible. We used to do powerloss testing where I worked, and before each and every series of runs, a baseline was taken. All numbers were compared to that baseline. Not the run from the day before, or the one before that, or any of the other ten or twelve done recently. And then just to be sure, re-run the baseline at the end of the series also, so you can compare the first and last runs and make sure nothing's come out of calibration or broken or degraded or....

Comparing numbers from different dynos in different locations etc. can lead you astray. And be careful how you manipulate the numbers trying to "compensate" for something.

The dyno numbers you see published are not gospel. There are numerous factors involved, so dyno runs that show Midwest Rickyracer's C230 is putting out 5hp more than West Coast Blingy Blingbling's Acura really don't mean a dang thing... other than they're both in the same neighborhood, powerwise.

NJPaprika230

"West Coast Blingy Blingbling", man that's great . 'Cept we got 'em here on the right coast, too.

edvpt

Bullwinkle, Your Dyno chart with the ASP pulley shows that your getting comparable HP and Torque gains to the Kleemann Allow pulley, however it shows a greater drop off starting at the ~5500-6300 rpm range that I do not see in Kleemann’s and goodkat’s posted dyno charts with the Kleemann Pulleys. What do you think is happening? Why is it happening with the ASP pulley and not the Kleemann? Is the ASP pulley outer diameter greater then that of the Kleemann, producing a higher A/F ratio maybe? Is the ECU preventing detonation sooner?

By the way this is great stuff. This is a great Forum. So much data, I Love it!!

young

whatever air filter you have, itg or oem, it will retard the results a little? is that a correct assumption?

so +25hp and +20lb/ft?

fernrod

congrats! nice results, all we need now is the chip, does anyone know of any chip manufacturers that are working on a chip for pullyed ccoupes? and any info on a larger or beter flowing intercooler? how hot does it have to be to realy afect the car when its runing lean, and causes it to ping

Buellwinkle

Fernrod, GIAC is working on such a chip now for our cars.

Young, I don't have the ITG filter yet as it's made to order and has to shipped from the UK. Have you ordered yours yet. I'm hoping the ITG filter will be as close to no filter as possible. Won't know until I get it.

Edvpt, yes, Kleemann is the only chart with no drop off after 5,500 rpm. Goodkat's dyno does show similar drop off with his Kleemann alloy pulley kit. As I've said before, over and over again, the effects of altitude on the corrected results of Kleemann's run affect his dyno results somewhat. I don't have access to a dyno at 5,000' so I can't duplicate those conditions nor do I care to. Realistically if Kleemann shows a corrected dyno at 200hp in Denver, he's really driving around with 165-170hp. At that reduced real HP, what the ECU may do is totally different. I've flown normally aspirated aircraft and forced induction aircraft and service ceilings (the max altitude a plane can fly before you lose so much power that it can't climb anymore) is usually limited from 10,000' on little Cessna 152s to 15,000' on high performance aircraft. Take a turbo aircraft like the Cessna T210 and you can climb to 20,000'+ (assuming you brought oxygen so you can breathe). This is because the pressure created by forced induction overcomes some of the losses a similar HP naturally aspirated engine gets at altitude. Also, is Kleemann running a completely stock car? Are the wheels and tires the same, is there an aftermarket exhaust or intake? All I can tell you is every situation is different so take all these dyno results for educational purposes only and get any pulley and have fun because you can feel the difference.

young

yes, i ordered it. he told me 2 weeks... but he was a bit vague about it.

otoupalik

14 a/f ratio is DANGEROUS! Do NOT drive your car on the street, and if you have to do NOT rev it hard! You WILL destroy your motor. As you can see that the KLEEMANN kits do NOT give you such a high a/f ratio. Also, there is more in the KLEEMANN kits then the JUST a pulley. It is easy (as everyone here can now see) to simply copy the KLEEMANN pulley and sell it alone. However KLEEMANN (and its dealers) choose to only sell a kit that will work together with your mercedes to perform flawlessly. The people that have accused KLEEMANN kits of high a/f ratios have also had other problems (incorrect software not appropriate for kit, measurements of a/f taken incorrectly) that have caused the high a/f and dangerously lean conditions.

Guys, this is your money and these are your cars. You need to do whatever you want, however, make sure you know what you are getting before you potentially destroy your motor. Of course, I have an interest, as we sell KLEEMANN, but the reason we sell that kit and not others is due to the engineering behind it. We do not have to worry about this kit causing problems, like others do.

Now, on to pinging. Brandon is right. If you can hear your engine ping inside a Mercedes, well you are screwed! Sure you can hear it on the dyno when the hood is up and/or the car is on a rack. But in the real world - nope!

I also want to add that just becuase our dyno was used, that does not imply that we endorse this pulley. We rent/sell dyno time. Any of you are free to come by and buy runs.

Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

Brad you are funny. What's different, do the badges help enrichen the mix. Watch what you say because your very own Kleemann alloy pulley customer is running leaner than me. What's your excuse for Linh's SLK230? Is it running 15:1 because he didn't put the Kleemann badges on his car? Are you telling him to stop driving his car for a mod you sold him? The a/f issue applies to all pulley kits where there is no change to the ECU to make it otherwise. I'll chip my car as I suggest others do with pulleys. This is not a new issue, read the SLK forums for the past year and you'll see. Most eventually chip their cars for these very same issues. Show me a C230K a/f ratio with a Kleemann pulley at sea level that's better than mine (not Mark's car with Upsolute, an unmodified car).

Also, stop saying we copied anyone, the pulley was designed by ASP engineers with only the factory pulley to work with. Since the ASP pulley is out first does that mean Kleemann copied it, no, it's just pulley, like 7 other companies already make and sell.

otoupalik

Actually, the kit is more then just a badge my friend! Also, Linh's car was measured INCORRECTLY. Do you want me to link you to the post where he publicly admits that is NOT the case. Oh well, here it is:

Linh's Post .....

Let's quote a bit:

Also, Linh, did NOT buy the kit as you know. He only bought the pulley. He did his own modifications, rather then buying the kit. Another reason to buy the complete kit (whether it is KLEEMANN, RennTech, etc.).

The Lean condition does NOT apply to EVERY MB with pulleys. Are you insane? Do you know think you know about every MB running pulleys in the US?

Software is great, but you should not NEED software with any mod in my opinion. I mean think about it, a KLEEMANN compressor kit which adds over 100HP does not change the ECU and it does NOT run lean. The lean condition is a problem. You may be able to fix it with software, but that is a band-aid approach.

BTW, I never stated that YOU in fact did copy the KLEEMANN pulley. I said "It is easy to copy the pulley." However, since you brought it up, why don't you have ASP share their technical drawings or CAD/CAM designs so you can prove that it was an original design. Of course you can cover over the vital specs so that no one can see them. This should solve the issue.

Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

Brad, Linh is up for your challange and Vadim put him off until next week. Prove it now, dyno his car this week or are you afraid of the results? He installed the entire Kleemann alloy pulley kit including everything in the box (pulley, belt, altenator pulley) except the badges (the secret ingredient ). I was there, I helped, I took pictures. His car runs great, just a little lean like mine. What he meant in that post was that the mechanic said his lean condition wasn't so bad and the car can run fine at 14.7:1. His original run on the same dyno was 12:1. So no matter how you look at it their is a significant difference in a/f ratio on his car.

If you want any drawings or specs from ASP, please feel free to call them. I do not work for them and only asked them to make a pulley for the group buy that Kleemann turned down. Believe me, it would have been way easier if I could have bought a Kleemann alloy pulley 3 months ago and copied it. The final pulley is a results of several attempts and not a one shot cookie cutter deal.

If you really, really want to prove me the fool, put a Kleemann alloy pulley on my car and see if there's any difference (power or a/f ratio). I don't want that pulley, it would be temporary to prove one of us the fool. Up for it Brad or are you making stuff up again to push a product?

otoupalik

Linh can buy dyno time whenever we have time at the shop, just like you did. Why would I be afraid? That comment makes no sense. However, he does NOT have the entire kit. He wanted to save money and make his own kit. So he just got the pulley. Why is that so hard to understand. Yes, he installed what was in the box, that does not mean that the complete kit was in the box! Linh has essentially the same as you do - it is NOT a complete kit!

I guarantee if you bought a COMPLETE KLEEMANN kit you would not have these problems. However, why in the world would I front that. If you want your car to run right, step up and buy a SYSTEM that is already proven.

You accuse me of making something up - I do challenge you. Find one post where ANYTHING has EVER been made up. You seem awfully defensive Carl. You made the comment, BACK IT UP!

Buellwinkle

OK Brad, tell us all. Besides the 8 7/8" OD Crankshaft pulley, a belt, an 3 3/8" underdrive alternator pulley and the badges, what else would come in a Kleeman kit for the C coupe? What has Kleemann included to mitigate the air/fuel issue? This question goes out to all that have bought a Kleemann alloy pulley for your coupes. And Brad, how many Kleemann alloy pulleys has Evosport installed so far for the coupe? How many Kleemann Ring kits? I hope dozens to back up your claims and experience. Besides Mark, anyone get a Kleemann pulley installed on their coupe by Evosport?

Also what's really funny is that a month ago or so, Brandon put out pics of his alloy pulley with a large steel hub. Today he announces his alloy pulley and the configuration around the seal is a copy of the ASP design. Coincidence? I know, it's easy to take an ASP pulley and copy it but then it's not the same as the real thing.

Lynn

Brad, you never answered the question of what is in the Kleemann kit which prevents the lean condition. I have not decided whose product to buy, and I think that is information I need to know to make a decision.