TemjinX2

wow learning a lot about tires. I did notice when i went from 225 front and 245 rear, then switched to 235's all around i was able to turn better. I just thought it was better grip from the tires, it seems to also go with what glyn's saying.

good info guys, i always thought wider tires were better.

FrankW

no one's gonna put 305s on the C-class. 265's will not create any problem or lost of traction like you said.

Glyn M Ruck

Sure Frank - agreed. And apart from the fortunate like you most of us simply don't have enough power. However, & this would need to be verified. I think in variable road conditions that even a 265 might be overstepping the limit. On a wet road, as an example, I suspect that a 245 would perform better all round than a 265 with a given compound & tread depth/pattern. Light sand on the road & one would see the same thing - dirt road & you would have to go much narrower. - Just a fairly well backed up thought. That's why rally cars run narrow tyres in off-road stages. (including directional stability & steering capability in this case)

FrankW

there's very little difference. soo small that without any electronic data collecting device you won't notice it.

i was running hankook k104 225 front and 255 rear. while my friend had 225 front and 235 rear. virtually no difference during rain or on any road. both are 18" mine's BBS RE...his OZ Ultraleggera. other than the obvious power difference between 32 and 240 where I can kick out the rear when ever.

Glyn M Ruck

Did you have all the electronics switched out? A wider tyre would always aquaplane sooner for very obvious reasons - same tread against same tread & depth.

You are talking about different cars and drivers of unknown calibre.

From experience with all the Michelin techies around - two identical vehicles running with all the electronics off - same driver - both 225 front & one 235 & another 265 rear on a wet track of average surface - the lap time differences would be less than subtle. Anyway - been there, done that & I stick to my recommendation of not over tyring vehicles. We will agree to differ. You see the differences as subtle - I don't. I would challenge you to try two things if you ever get the opportunity that will illustrate my point admirably - Take what you know as an Integra Type R & increase the tyre size over what Honda fit - you will turn it into a dog. Try a Porsche 911 Series car with a set of rears mounted up front as well or even 2 sizes larger on the front & it's a pig - why? because it is light in the nose & does not place enough pressure on the wider rubber.

Enjoy!

FrankW

you're preaching to someone that drive his friend's car and vise versa. and has the experience.

now you're just being ridiculous. no one will mount 285s from the rear of a 996/997 to the front because it doesn't even fit. on the owner's GT3 of the shop of this place I go to he only runs 235s on the front.

tons of JDM tuner increase the size of the tires on the Integra btw and also the S2k. One of my friend who does Touge runs 4 rear tires (255s all around) on his 2005 S2k and it simply made the car handle and grip better.

like i've said bigger contact patch = more traction/grip which also means more friction. same car with wider tires running slower track time isn't surprising on short tracks or auto-X. with high performance cars with tons of power to spare wider tire can increase the cornering grip which in term makes the car faster around the track even if some steering is sacrificed.

Glyn M Ruck

Mike, trouble is that most cars come a little under tyred from the OEM for cost, comfort & a whole host of reasons - mainly cost I think. Then people think they will go up in tyre size & over do it. I still remember widening rims on one of my early Alfas and putting some large rubber on it and wondering if I had done the right thing. It never seemed quite right but hey I was 20 & it looked and sounded mean with stage 3 cams and twin, twin choke 45 DCOE Webers. It was only when we started Caltex Honda that I first had Michelin as a tyre partner & learned the science of motorcycle tyre design - what an art - from different compounds on different sides of the tyre to varying profiles to alter effective gearing from leaned over to fully upright, coming out of a corner, to controlled tyre growth with increasing speed to raise gearing. We then moved our sponsorship to various classes of car racing - from homologation special BMWs to an Opel with a fully fledged NASCAR mill in it, Turbo Audi Quattros and a number of others. Michelin remained our tyre partners thoughout and while we had a reasonable idea of what we were doing most of it revolved around power production & aerodynamics, suspension & braking. The local & French engineers from Michelin really opened my eyes from a tyre technology perspective. Their research is nothing short of spectacular and they became a total component of our championship winning team. We could never have been successful without them. You would not believe how often they said to us - too much rubber!! We would listen & sure enough the lap times came down by seconds & the drivers were happy. Must have happy drivers or riders - viva Valentino Rossi - the finest ever.

Before this becomes boring - in the bike days the Marketing Director of Honda South Africa imported a heavily factory modified Honda Prelude which came Michelin shod. It took him about 4 months to wipe out the tyres and of course he fitted larger ones! He was a good driver & not happy. The Honda factory Rep Southern Hemisphere - Yamamoto san was visiting & we went to lunch. Gerrit complained about the Prelude's handling. Yamy stepped out of the car at the restaurant - took one look at the tyres and said - "wrong tyre, too big, you talk to Michelin, they will tell you." To cut a long story short the original tyre size was fitted by Michelin and Gerrit was back in love with his car. Honda truly understand pressure to contact patch ratios.

Glyn M Ruck

I was stretching a point with the Porsche Go up 2 sizes on the front & it messes things up.

TemjinX2

thanks for all the info...i'll be sure to ask you guys when i need my next set of tires..

FrankW

Prelude is one of the most disregarded Honda of all time! LOL not even the Nipon public take Prelude as a good platform. Only few tuners from Japan took it as a cheap platform that has potential.

225 front and 215 rear 17" from JUN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Dm-tvAXYM

and Touge vs S2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7JjvHqEEM8

in case you don't know who the drivers are. they're all pro drivers from JGTC.

Glyn M Ruck

It was a long time ago & let me assure you Honda had done a great job - This was no ordinary Prelude - stiffened, braced, drilled - Integral roll cage for futher stiffening. It was a one off special - I agree with you - the Prelude was nothing special - pretty maybe

TemjinX2

the prelude was a ok car, it was just one of the heavier cars in honda line up..the weight is what turned a lot of tuners away from it. 2900lbs in 2000 was really heavy for fwd car in comparison to the 2500lb integra and civics, but about average weight by todays standards.

Mu9enx

hotdamn, so much info in this thread!

i love a good debate, really broadens my knowledge!

TuneTime

all i can say is that i put 22inch really staggered wheels on a S550 4Matic and the car has 34,000 miles on it today and is fine....

AND... when i was working at the dealer, a stock S550 4x4 came in with a DESTROYED transfer case that self destructed with factory wheels.... That car had 2,000 miles on it...

And im willing to bet that if that car had rims on it, it would be a warranty issue....

my $.02

J

TuneTime

oh yes... to agree with above.. some new 4Matic C's come factory staggered.. i have seen some that have come to my shop... i thought it was a factory error... i guess its time to relearn.... lol

TemjinX2

i'd rather have the ability to route my tires. Then again i'm probably the only one that drives like 21k a yr in his mercedes.

Glyn M Ruck

You would have loved Gerrit's car - Strange metallic Merlot (as opposed to Burgandy)in colour. When the Honda plant/racing div. build a one off they really put their backs into it. The car was a work of art, lightened, stiffened, adjustable everything with rose joints everywhere. Still properly trimmed, totally usable & went like stink - only weakness were CV joints that did not last all that well even though they were specials. Yamamoto san used to just throw a new set of shafts on the plane in Tokyo via Frankfurt from time to time. You would feel vibration in the steering - long before noise. Gerrit used to enter it in celebrity track days now & again & blow most of the competition to the weeds even against things more powerful. The little Honda was nimble to say the least. Gerrit was very popular with the factory because he drove a Honda whereas the rest of the board drove Mercs

ps this is a mid 80's eurospec Prelude I'm talking about

Glyn M Ruck

[QUOTE=FrankW;3140308]
225 front and 215 rear 17" from JUN
QUOTE]

Well at least these chaps erred in the right direction following the Michelin formula - light tail end = smaller tyre to get the pressure/contact patch ratio right.

TemjinX2

great story glyn. I wished i worked in the auto industry..well maybe not now. But i've been a honda fan for a long time since they use to offer fun cars at a reasonable price, unfortunately they went too much of a Toyota direction.

Looks like hyundai is going to take up that mantle.

Glyn M Ruck

You are so right - now their stated ambition is to take on the Germans. Rode in a new eurospec Accord the other day - much heavier, solid thunk to the doors, quiet, longer travel suspension, softer ride - styling evolutionary but certainly moving slowly to a more euro look.

Hyundai must bother Toyota

BTW Mike, what wheels do you have on the C32 with 235s all round. I also like to rotate

ChrisBrown

I have a 2005 C240 4MATIC.

I'm going to get new wheels next year. I was originally thinking of getting the 2007 C280 OEM wheels with 7 spokes. I wanted to stay at the same tire size so I can do a wheel swap and mount my existing tires.

Then yesterday I was thinking...I like the 2007 C230 sport wheels in 6 spokes better. They are 17 inches, and look great.

However...the C230 was in a staggered setup that year from the factory. I don't want to have a staggered setup, and since I'm in a 4MATIC, I don't want to throw off the differential anyways.

So, my question is...can I just get a set of "front" wheels to use in the back as well, and have the same 17x7.5 wheels all the way around?

My other question, - since it's only a 1 inch difference in wheel size, though the sidewall height is getting smaller by 10cm, will the ride quality stay similar to the 16 inch wheels and tires - or will it roughen up dramatically?

The only thing I'm not so keen on is that tires for my current size are $70 cheaper than the 17x7.5 wheels - the Michelins I would get if I changed sizes are the Pilot Exaltos A/S series. Otherwise I'd stay on my Continentals since they only have 12,000 miles on them.

Would love to hear all thoughts and suggestions.

I was thinking of getting my wheels from Finish Line online since I can save a good couple of hundred off of dealer prices per wheel.

TruTaing

staggered vs non staggered - Search the last few days of threads because there is a thread detailing all of this.

Use the wheel offset calcuator on 1010tires (its listed in the stickies) to figure out if those front wheels will have enough space on the rear of your car.

Ive driven w203s w/ 16s and 17s. No difference in ride quality in my opinion.

Bigger tires for bigger wheels == bigger contact patch. Couldn't be a bad thing, right?

Personally, if I were you. I would find some 17x8.5 all around. You seem to be more concerned w/ the functionality of your awd while maintaining a good means to rotate your tires and not spend a whole lot. I dont know if there are 17x8.5s out there, but it would let ya run 225/40 all around - that could be a bit more rubber than whats being run on the 7.5s, but I dunno the exact details.

Good Luck.

ChrisBrown

Well the rear wheels on the 2007 were 17x8.5.

That said, I would think there's no reason I could do 17x7.5 in the rear, since the AMG accessory wheels are 18x7.5, and the rears on the 230 were 17x8.5.

It's not staggered vs. non for me on the whole 4MATIC issue. I've been reading that thread quite a bit. I understand the percentage range, and what I can mechanically do within reason.

Like you said, I just want tire rotations, and...well...I just want the same wheels on all 4 wheels, because that's my preference. I like the look of staggered. However, since I have the CPO extended warranty - I also want to make sure I don't do anything that would cause a problem. If I didn't have the warranty, that would be a different story. But, I don't want to do anything to cause my SA to say no to me on a warranty repair. I know it's being cautious, but I spent good money on the warranty, and i've already used it a couple of times. I don't want to void it.

So, back to my original question, can I do the 2007 C230's front wheels - 17x7.5, on both the front and the rear. In theory, yes, but I just wanted to hear from everyone.

Glyn, and thoughts from you? What say you? I love hearing from you chap.

TruTaing

I dont see any reason for 7.5s NOT working in the rear at long as the offset and the tires are right.

Glyn M Ruck

Hi Chris - just noticed this post - I have exactly the same dilemma at present - also changing wheels - I've decided to go staggered but I don't have the AWD issue to consider. I fully understand the cautious approach and I'm not going to try & change your mind. It is an issue and if you don't get things right you can do harm. I also like being able to rotate for potential noise reasons if the tread starts to feather which is almost guaranteed with Benz geometry - others do it to even out wear - rotation slightly accelerates tyre wear but obviates all the other issues. That said you should try & fit non directional tyres so that you can change the direction of rotation. Michelin have woken up to this issue and the new Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 now has the Exalto2 non directional but assymetric tread which allows you to do this.

You are going to have to do some homework for me & yourself. The Sport wheel fitted to US vehicles is different to the Sport Pack wheel fitted in South Africa. The 17" staggered Sport Pack wheels fitted in SA have the same offset as the AMG staggered 10 spoke fitted to the CLK55 - namely 17x7.5 ET37 front & 17 X 8.5 ET 30 rear

If your Sport wheel is the same then putting 17X7.5 wheels with a 37 offset on the back is going to make your back track look too narrow. The C tends to have a rear track that looks too narrow - less noticable on your car than pre facelift models without staggered wheel sets.

I would rather run 17X8.5 all round - saw it on a car the other day and it looked good. If you can't imagine having 245 tyres on the front then run 235s all round like Mike (TemjinX2) does on his C32. Gives you the best of both worlds - Run Exalto PE2, Exalto A/S or new Sport PS2.

Let me know those offsets - I think the 7.5 is going to narrow your rear track & not look right. BTW someone is sure to disagree!