Does 27hp really make that big of a difference?
#26
Super Moderator
Huh?
Smaller engines generally enjoy the revs more than larger ones...its called reciprocating mass. Its why the small bike engines rev to 15,000 RPM, and a big *** V8 tanks at 5500. There's also so many more factors related to how an engine performs at higher RPM like the valvespring rates, pushrods vs. overhead cams, the #of valves, the flow rates on the head, etc...
I know on my car, the only reason the car falls off the powerband around 6300 is that MB told it too. It pulls hard right past the redline, and then you can feel the ECU taking over- retarding the ignition. IIRC, the system also begins bleeding boost shortly before redline. Its all about the model ranges...you can't your entry level cars outperforming the more expensive six cylinder cars.
Top speed of the M271 and M111 cars is 148 and 149 respectively- in markets where the limiter isn't turned on. Top speed is still about HP, drag and gearing.
Smaller engines generally enjoy the revs more than larger ones...its called reciprocating mass. Its why the small bike engines rev to 15,000 RPM, and a big *** V8 tanks at 5500. There's also so many more factors related to how an engine performs at higher RPM like the valvespring rates, pushrods vs. overhead cams, the #of valves, the flow rates on the head, etc...
I know on my car, the only reason the car falls off the powerband around 6300 is that MB told it too. It pulls hard right past the redline, and then you can feel the ECU taking over- retarding the ignition. IIRC, the system also begins bleeding boost shortly before redline. Its all about the model ranges...you can't your entry level cars outperforming the more expensive six cylinder cars.
Top speed of the M271 and M111 cars is 148 and 149 respectively- in markets where the limiter isn't turned on. Top speed is still about HP, drag and gearing.
The M111 is a real sleeper & can be modified to produce good HP & torque for it's capacity - albeit in a rather crude & rough way which is why Benz dropped it - too many complaints about rough running for a premium brand. But a willing high revver it has never been where the baby V6s love to rev.
It's not all about Torque either. Formula 1 engines produce surprisingly low torque but all screaming hp at high RPM. But then at low RPM they can't pull the skin off a rice pudding which is why launching them can be a challenge & they require launching at high RPM with anti stall control.
Comments from the UK press on the M111
"Coarse. Noisy. Crude. Hardly words you'd expect to hear applied to a car bearing the famous Mercedes badge. Yet, when describing the company's four-cylinder petrol engines – the 180, 200 and 230 Kompressor M111 versions – all are entirely accurate.
In mid-2002, Mercedes introduced a new 4-cylinder engine family to replace the notorious existing four-cylinders. Compared with the old 4-cylinder, the M271 family is much smoother, quieter and much more frugal. Mercedes finally has a world-class four-cylinder engine to match its superb V6, V8 and V12."
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 09-02-2009 at 07:37 AM.
#27
Super Moderator
#28
Super Moderator
What do you want. The torque converter clutches to disengage when you lift off the throttle & slip like hell like an old yank tank auto?
Unless you are a completely incompetent driver I'm sure you don't declutch your manual when you lift off the throttle. So I don't get your point.
Modern autos are as close to driving a manual as you get once you learn to drive them. The only decent other option is a double clutch transmission which is great.
Give me a Benz auto long before their clunky manual transmissions & crap clutch action.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 09-02-2009 at 08:10 PM.
#29
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 2,403
Likes: 0
Received 58 Likes
on
24 Posts
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
+1 30hp and 40ft/lbs IS a world of difference.
I think 7 gears is just too many anyway. I seem to find myself limiting the transmission to 4 or 5 gears when I'm not on the highway, that seems to help a little bit. Here lately I've been using the "tap shift" all the time, especially before I take a turn or something I'll down shift so after I turn I have the power ready when I want it. Plus it makes me feel a little closer to the manual transmission I really would like to have. I would LOVE to have a C350 Sport with a manual transmission, but I know I'll never find one. I'll be doing good if I can find a C350 Sport, all the ones I've seen for sale are all Luxury Sedans.
That's what this thread was made to find out! I guess I've never really paid attention to how much of a difference even that much more power makes. Plus, I don't think I've driven two similar cars back to back before where I'd notice the difference either.
That's what this thread was made to find out! I guess I've never really paid attention to how much of a difference even that much more power makes. Plus, I don't think I've driven two similar cars back to back before where I'd notice the difference either.
#30
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 2,403
Likes: 0
Received 58 Likes
on
24 Posts
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
I don't understand your logic. The MB & Honda autos "hang in a gear when you got off the gas" as you put it - because they lock up their torque converters for the sake off efficiency & good handling - i.e. they behave just like a manual when you lift off the throttle - You are hard coupled to the engine & run against compression. All ideal for proper car control. No changing up in the middle of a corner like ****ty old autos of yore.
What do you want. The torque converter clutches to disengage when you lift off the throttle & slip like hell like an old yank tank auto?
Unless you are a completely incompetent driver I'm sure you don't declutch your manual when you lift off the throttle. So I don't get your point.
Modern autos are as close to driving a manual as you get once you learn to drive them. The only decent other option is a double clutch transmission which is great.
Give me a Benz auto long before their clucky manual transmissions & crap clutch action.
What do you want. The torque converter clutches to disengage when you lift off the throttle & slip like hell like an old yank tank auto?
Unless you are a completely incompetent driver I'm sure you don't declutch your manual when you lift off the throttle. So I don't get your point.
Modern autos are as close to driving a manual as you get once you learn to drive them. The only decent other option is a double clutch transmission which is great.
Give me a Benz auto long before their clucky manual transmissions & crap clutch action.
#31
Super Moderator
All wise advice John. People are so used to stump pulling torque that they simply don't understand our little V6s. They love to be revved & are great fun as a result. The power & torque curves go up in a virtually straight line together with RPM so rev the damn things - they don't object. I rev mine all the time & the wear levels in the oil are ultra low. Wish I had a 7G - set up right it's great & more cogs are marvelous for an engine that likes revving.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 09-02-2009 at 06:44 PM.
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
I disagree. The 2.5L and 7G, just need to driven differently then most are used to. Rev that *****, and the engine and transmission perform flawlessly. Yes, at 1st, my 2.5L and 7G were frustrating to drive, until I learned to drive it. Once I learned to drive it, my mileage improved as well. I consistently get high 20's for mileage on the highway, and I drive the car HARD, as it really is begging to be driven.
I really love the 2007 model, though. So smooth and absolutely gorgeous from every angle. The wheels, exhaust tip, and lip spoiler really make it look better than the already-attractive 2005-2006.
#34
MBworld Guru
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Diamond Bar, CA
Posts: 22,007
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
white and whiter
agreed with johnand
one of the friend has a 2007 and I had some pretty good seat time in it. you really can't drive granny style and expect the transmission to not hunt for gears. of course this is not to say you need to go WOT all the time, but you do need a slightly heavier input to have the transmission hit each gear in the engine sweet spot.
I had thought it hunt for gear too much as well until I figured out how to drive it. It also doesn't hurt the avg mpg at all.
one of the friend has a 2007 and I had some pretty good seat time in it. you really can't drive granny style and expect the transmission to not hunt for gears. of course this is not to say you need to go WOT all the time, but you do need a slightly heavier input to have the transmission hit each gear in the engine sweet spot.
I had thought it hunt for gear too much as well until I figured out how to drive it. It also doesn't hurt the avg mpg at all.
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: GA
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
2016 Chevrolet SS, 2006 Cadillac STS-V
I don't understand your logic. The MB & Honda autos "hang in a gear when you got off the gas" as you put it - because they lock up their torque converters for the sake off efficiency & good handling - i.e. they behave just like a manual when you lift off the throttle - You are hard coupled to the engine & run against compression. All ideal for proper car control. No changing up in the middle of a corner like ****ty old autos of yore.
Don't worry, I'm way ahead of you on that one. I'm going to complain about the jerky first gear operation and 1-2 shift, so they should just reprogram the TCM for that under warranty and then I'll just pay to get the ECM updated.
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
I don't understand your logic. The MB & Honda autos "hang in a gear when you got off the gas" as you put it - because they lock up their torque converters for the sake off efficiency & good handling - i.e. they behave just like a manual when you lift off the throttle - You are hard coupled to the engine & run against compression. All ideal for proper car control. No changing up in the middle of a corner like ****ty old autos of yore.
What do you want. The torque converter clutches to disengage when you lift off the throttle & slip like hell like an old yank tank auto?
Unless you are a completely incompetent driver I'm sure you don't declutch your manual when you lift off the throttle. So I don't get your point.
Modern autos are as close to driving a manual as you get once you learn to drive them. The only decent other option is a double clutch transmission which is great.
Give me a Benz auto long before their clunky manual transmissions & crap clutch action.
What do you want. The torque converter clutches to disengage when you lift off the throttle & slip like hell like an old yank tank auto?
Unless you are a completely incompetent driver I'm sure you don't declutch your manual when you lift off the throttle. So I don't get your point.
Modern autos are as close to driving a manual as you get once you learn to drive them. The only decent other option is a double clutch transmission which is great.
Give me a Benz auto long before their clunky manual transmissions & crap clutch action.
#37
Super Moderator
Benz MTs have improved but they are far from state of the art. A basic Toyota has a better switch like gearchange. Benz MTs are clunky & their synchro is slow.
#39
Super Moderator
No - It's easy to beat the synchromesh - Excuse my SA terminology. You can't snap change a Benz box. It baulks & it's clunky
Aside from my opinion which I stand by - I think Benz MTs suck. They have certainly improved - YES.
Have you ever read a review on a Benz manual car that has been complimentary? Even vaguely complimentary? If so please post it. The European, our local & the Aus motoring press always crucify them & I'm afraid I think they are correct.
I have never understood why Benz don't just fit a ZF or Getrag MT. They obviously don't put the effort into their MTs that go into their auto's. In fact I think they would be quite happy not to sell MT cars.
Aside from my opinion which I stand by - I think Benz MTs suck. They have certainly improved - YES.
Have you ever read a review on a Benz manual car that has been complimentary? Even vaguely complimentary? If so please post it. The European, our local & the Aus motoring press always crucify them & I'm afraid I think they are correct.
I have never understood why Benz don't just fit a ZF or Getrag MT. They obviously don't put the effort into their MTs that go into their auto's. In fact I think they would be quite happy not to sell MT cars.
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: GA
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
2016 Chevrolet SS, 2006 Cadillac STS-V
I would agree with that. The only manual "Benz" I've driven is a 3.2L Crossfire, and that transmission did not like the way I drove it! I hit it hard into second and grinded some gears! I think my favorite manuals are the T56 (Corvette/Camaro) and the Cobalt has a really nice transmission and clutch. I drove a last generation Accord manual and I liked that very similar to the Cobalt.
#46
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: MD
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
2007 C230 and 1985 Monte SS
Just a few comments-
A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.
My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.
The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.
A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.
My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.
The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.
#47
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 2,403
Likes: 0
Received 58 Likes
on
24 Posts
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Okay, you make good points. I've never spent any extensive time with the M272 C230. All I know is that in the 125 miles or so I have driven one it was a frustrating experience. The car didn't have the punch of my M271 and the transmission seemed to have too many gears.
I really love the 2007 model, though. So smooth and absolutely gorgeous from every angle. The wheels, exhaust tip, and lip spoiler really make it look better than the already-attractive 2005-2006.
I really love the 2007 model, though. So smooth and absolutely gorgeous from every angle. The wheels, exhaust tip, and lip spoiler really make it look better than the already-attractive 2005-2006.
#48
Super Moderator
I would agree with that. The only manual "Benz" I've driven is a 3.2L Crossfire, and that transmission did not like the way I drove it! I hit it hard into second and grinded some gears! I think my favorite manuals are the T56 (Corvette/Camaro) and the Cobalt has a really nice transmission and clutch. I drove a last generation Accord manual and I liked that very similar to the Cobalt.
#49
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 2,403
Likes: 0
Received 58 Likes
on
24 Posts
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Just a few comments-
A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.
My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.
The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.
A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.
My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.
The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.
#50
Super Moderator
Just a few comments-
A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.
My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.
The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.
A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.
My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.
The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.
Listen to John regarding the 7G - our W204 has the latest software flash & behaves very well. We never had the 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 1st jerk.