New ASP Pulley vs Kleemann Alloy Pulley
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Toronto
2002 C230 Coupe
New ASP Pulley vs Kleemann Alloy Pulley
hi,
I realized that ASP doesn't make anymore aluminum pulley. The only type they make are the factory mod, which you send them the factory one and they mod it for you. So i was just wondering which pulley (Kleemann or ASP) gives me better power and peformance. thanks guys
I realized that ASP doesn't make anymore aluminum pulley. The only type they make are the factory mod, which you send them the factory one and they mod it for you. So i was just wondering which pulley (Kleemann or ASP) gives me better power and peformance. thanks guys
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
The Kleemann pulley weighs about 5 lbs less than a factory pulley so if you have to move 5 lbs less rotating mass that translates into more power. Putting power to the wheels is what's important and relative to all the weight in the driveline, the transmission, flywheel, wheels, tires, axles, etc., 5 lbs. is a pretty small number, my guess is that the most you'll see is a 1-2 HP difference and even then it would be at higher RPMs.
Buy both, run them on the dyno and see. Sell/return the one you don't like. It may sound funny but that's what I did when I couldn't decide between 2 cameras and I love the one I kept and I was leaning towards the other one.
Buy both, run them on the dyno and see. Sell/return the one you don't like. It may sound funny but that's what I did when I couldn't decide between 2 cameras and I love the one I kept and I was leaning towards the other one.
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Toronto
2002 C230 Coupe
I don't have the $$ to buy both...and it is such hasstle to ship it back to them. since i live in Toronto. But thanks...that's a good way to compare if u have $$......which one do u guys prefer tho?
I was thinking about getting the ASP since there aren't much different in peformance compare to Kleemann..and it is less expensive...thanks
I was thinking about getting the ASP since there aren't much different in peformance compare to Kleemann..and it is less expensive...thanks
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From: The blue white rock, third out.
2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
At this point, the new ASP design looks to be a slightly safer bet.
Kleeman has been really open with everyone about the design, risks, and problems around his and other pulleys- something I appreciate immensely. But the Alloy pulley doesn't address the harmonic dampner, something that given the recent failures seems to be prudent. OTOH, I think the Kleeman kit comes with another pulley to spin the altenator at the correct speed, instead of overdriving it like the ASP would.
Kleeman has been really open with everyone about the design, risks, and problems around his and other pulleys- something I appreciate immensely. But the Alloy pulley doesn't address the harmonic dampner, something that given the recent failures seems to be prudent. OTOH, I think the Kleeman kit comes with another pulley to spin the altenator at the correct speed, instead of overdriving it like the ASP would.
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My advise, before you buy either run a search on ASP and Kleemann pulleys. READ THEM ALL! For if someone tells you why you should get an ASP pulley there is someone else who will tell you otherwise. Do the research before you make the investment. I have been browsing this forum and reading threads for over a year going back and forth between ASP and Kleemann and have just recently decided which one to go with. I am confident with my decision and you should be too before you spend the money on it.
Just my 0.02$
Regards,
Matt
Just my 0.02$
Regards,
Matt
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Outland, ASP will sell you the larger alt pulley if you want and no, Kleemann's alt pulley will not spin the alt at the "correct speed", it underdrives it by about 20%. So take your pic, overdrive or underdrive it by 20%. If you do mostly freeway driving at high speeds the underdrive is fine, if you sit in traffic, idle a lot and like to run all your accesories then I feel more comfortable overdriving it. I think the reason that you can't run it at the correct speed is that nobody makes a belt that will fit with that size pulley. I can tell you one thing, it's not easy to remove and that's my primary reason for not doing it on my car and most of my driving is high speed freeway.
Dabeze, there really isn't much on the forum about ASP's new pulley for anyone to search on. Basically it's a factory pulley, the s/c & alt pulley plane has the belt grooves machined flat, a ring is pressed on to make it larger, then welded for additional strength, new belt grooves are machined in and then it's rebalanced. It's comperable in design to pulleys from Brabus, Renntech, Vaeth, H&S, Carlsson and Opera Design all of which cost more than the 2 pulleys mentioned combined. Here's the Carlsson in stunning blue.
Dabeze, there really isn't much on the forum about ASP's new pulley for anyone to search on. Basically it's a factory pulley, the s/c & alt pulley plane has the belt grooves machined flat, a ring is pressed on to make it larger, then welded for additional strength, new belt grooves are machined in and then it's rebalanced. It's comperable in design to pulleys from Brabus, Renntech, Vaeth, H&S, Carlsson and Opera Design all of which cost more than the 2 pulleys mentioned combined. Here's the Carlsson in stunning blue.
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From: Ohio
2010 C300 4matic
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
I can tell you one thing, it's not easy to remove and that's my primary reason for not doing it on my car
I can tell you one thing, it's not easy to remove and that's my primary reason for not doing it on my car
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From: Ontario, Canada
C230 Coupe 2002
Pullies
Hi Guys. Why hasn't anyone come out with a smaller pully for the supercharger instead of the crank pully. I have bought a smaller one for my Miata that has an Eaton Blower. A guy in SC. wanted one and when he couldn't get one from Eaton he took his off and had one made. It worked so well that he had more made and sold them for $75.00 each. Just think, you only spin the supercharger and not the other accessories let alone touching the crank. It gave me 2 more lbs of boost and what a difference in acceleration. Come Back!
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
If you want to go that route just remove your s/c pulley, send it to Lee at ASP Racing and he'll make you one any size you want, no problem, $75 sounds reasonable. The reason he hasn't done it yet is because MB doesn't sell that pulley by itself and nobody wants it bad enough to remove their's first. A company called Dynospot in No Cal does it for the pre-2000 motors but decided not to do it for the newer motors. ASP does this already for the Ford Lightning and the Pontiac GTP. ASP also sells a pulley extractor that you may need to remove the old pulley. You can also probably get a smaller alternator belt and bypass the s/c until you get the new pulley back. Don't hesitate, just do it, you won't regret it!
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From: Ontario, Canada
C230 Coupe 2002
Pully
Hey Buellwinkle, sounds like you know your stuff. One more question about getting the SC pully downsized. Does one need to change or add anything to the fuel management system and will the intercooler keep up with the added heat generated with the added boost. My Miata needed an intercooler added but the 230 already comes with one. I have read of other intercoolers on the market but wonder if one is really needed? Oh oh that's more then one question!!
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From: The blue white rock, third out.
2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Re: Pully
Originally posted by TonyG230
Hey Buellwinkle, sounds like you know your stuff. One more question about getting the SC pully downsized. Does one need to change or add anything to the fuel management system and will the intercooler keep up with the added heat generated with the added boost. My Miata needed an intercooler added but the 230 already comes with one. I have read of other intercoolers on the market but wonder if one is really needed? Oh oh that's more then one question!!
Hey Buellwinkle, sounds like you know your stuff. One more question about getting the SC pully downsized. Does one need to change or add anything to the fuel management system and will the intercooler keep up with the added heat generated with the added boost. My Miata needed an intercooler added but the 230 already comes with one. I have read of other intercoolers on the market but wonder if one is really needed? Oh oh that's more then one question!!
Voyager dude? When they swapped out your SC, did you get to take a look at it? Ask them for the pulley :p
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From: Colorado
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
Outland, ASP will sell you the larger alt pulley if you want and no, Kleemann's alt pulley will not spin the alt at the "correct speed", it underdrives it by about 20%. So take your pic, overdrive or underdrive it by 20%. If you do mostly freeway driving at high speeds the underdrive is fine, if you sit in traffic, idle a lot and like to run all your accesories then I feel more comfortable overdriving it. I think the reason that you can't run it at the correct speed is that nobody makes a belt that will fit with that size pulley. I can tell you one thing, it's not easy to remove and that's my primary reason for not doing it on my car and most of my driving is high speed freeway.
Outland, ASP will sell you the larger alt pulley if you want and no, Kleemann's alt pulley will not spin the alt at the "correct speed", it underdrives it by about 20%. So take your pic, overdrive or underdrive it by 20%. If you do mostly freeway driving at high speeds the underdrive is fine, if you sit in traffic, idle a lot and like to run all your accesories then I feel more comfortable overdriving it. I think the reason that you can't run it at the correct speed is that nobody makes a belt that will fit with that size pulley. I can tell you one thing, it's not easy to remove and that's my primary reason for not doing it on my car and most of my driving is high speed freeway.
The alternator and supercharger are on the same belt plane, no? With this being true, and our alloy pulley is 20% larger, you are spinning the supercharger 20% faster, as well as the alternator 20% faster right? If so, using an underdrive pulley on the alternator (20% larger than the stock pulley) DOES decrease the speed of the alternator, since the over-boost pulley is spinning it 20% faster to begin with. The belt we provide was designed specifically for our application. I'm not suprised that ASP can't find the proper sized belt, seeing as how they are not commercialy avaliable in the U.S., except through KLEEMANN USA.
Underdrive and overdrive pulley's follow the same theory as gear ratios, so how can you say our alternator pulley "will not spin the alt at "the correct speed"."????
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Originally posted by CoryU
Beull-
The alternator and supercharger are on the same belt plane, no? With this being true, and our alloy pulley is 20% larger, you are spinning the supercharger 20% faster, as well as the alternator 20% faster right? If so, using an underdrive pulley on the alternator (20% larger than the stock pulley) DOES decrease the speed of the alternator, since the over-boost pulley is spinning it 20% faster to begin with. The belt we provide was designed specifically for our application. I'm not suprised that ASP can't find the proper sized belt, seeing as how they are not commercialy avaliable in the U.S., except through KLEEMANN USA.
Underdrive and overdrive pulley's follow the same theory as gear ratios, so how can you say our alternator pulley "will not spin the alt at "the correct speed"."????
Beull-
The alternator and supercharger are on the same belt plane, no? With this being true, and our alloy pulley is 20% larger, you are spinning the supercharger 20% faster, as well as the alternator 20% faster right? If so, using an underdrive pulley on the alternator (20% larger than the stock pulley) DOES decrease the speed of the alternator, since the over-boost pulley is spinning it 20% faster to begin with. The belt we provide was designed specifically for our application. I'm not suprised that ASP can't find the proper sized belt, seeing as how they are not commercialy avaliable in the U.S., except through KLEEMANN USA.
Underdrive and overdrive pulley's follow the same theory as gear ratios, so how can you say our alternator pulley "will not spin the alt at "the correct speed"."????
TonyG230, during full boost operation at full throttle the car will run a little lean, as much as 14:1 as measured before the cat but only for a very short amount of time. People have tried an MB ECU setting called the Fuel Corrective as recommended by 2 tuners but on my car as well as other's that did dyno's lost siginificant power doing this, 12.5 HP to 17 HP loss on my car. As for intercoolers, the factory one works great for the stock boost on an '02 which is about 6 1/2 PSI but falls short with the 10 PSI of a "pullied" car. I'm in the process of testing the Ractec unit and it works out really well. It should be available for about $650-700 in a month or so.
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From: Colorado
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
If a pulley kit requires a special belt that's not readily available then to me it's not worth the effort, what if I have a belt problem and I need a belt right away and I'm not near a Kleemann dealer?
If a pulley kit requires a special belt that's not readily available then to me it's not worth the effort, what if I have a belt problem and I need a belt right away and I'm not near a Kleemann dealer?
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From: Ontario, Canada
C230 Coupe 2002
Pully & Boost
Thanks Buellwinkle for the info. Now that I know what stock boost is ( 6.5 ) I thought that it was at about 5lbs as told by a salesman before I bought my car. Can you just get another 2lbs of boost without going all the way up to 10lbs? My Miata at 2lbs more was pretty good without undo stress. I tried a big boost kit ( 10lbs ) on a freinds Miata and it was crazy. It hasn't blown up yet but have been told that 1.6 liter will take 12lbs safely. Whats the story on the different pullies that are available and the crank issue. Am I missing something here. The pully being machined properly shoud turn true and balance perfectly, shouldn't it?
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From: SF Bay Area
2002 C230 K
Re: Pully & Boost
Originally posted by TonyG230
Can you just get another 2lbs of boost without going all the way up to 10lbs?
Can you just get another 2lbs of boost without going all the way up to 10lbs?
Cheers, BT
Last edited by trench; Apr 2, 2003 at 05:30 PM.
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Re: Pully & Boost
Originally posted by TonyG230
Thanks Buellwinkle for the info. Now that I know what stock boost is ( 6.5 ) I thought that it was at about 5lbs as told by a salesman before I bought my car. Can you just get another 2lbs of boost without going all the way up to 10lbs? My Miata at 2lbs more was pretty good without undo stress. I tried a big boost kit ( 10lbs ) on a freinds Miata and it was crazy. It hasn't blown up yet but have been told that 1.6 liter will take 12lbs safely. Whats the story on the different pullies that are available and the crank issue. Am I missing something here. The pully being machined properly shoud turn true and balance perfectly, shouldn't it?
Thanks Buellwinkle for the info. Now that I know what stock boost is ( 6.5 ) I thought that it was at about 5lbs as told by a salesman before I bought my car. Can you just get another 2lbs of boost without going all the way up to 10lbs? My Miata at 2lbs more was pretty good without undo stress. I tried a big boost kit ( 10lbs ) on a freinds Miata and it was crazy. It hasn't blown up yet but have been told that 1.6 liter will take 12lbs safely. Whats the story on the different pullies that are available and the crank issue. Am I missing something here. The pully being machined properly shoud turn true and balance perfectly, shouldn't it?
The pulley is rebalanced by a seperate company that balances aircraft engine parts and this service is included with your purchase. A
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From: Ontario, Canada
C230 Coupe 2002
ASP Pully
Hi Buellwinkle, Sounds great! How does one get ahold of ASP for the pully upgrade. I like the idea of 8lbs of boost, just to get the car some more power. I wonder about take off, would it be easier with the increase of boost. It seems that the tourque off idle is low with the standard tranny and if the revs aren't just right it bogs a bit. Have you noticed a difference with yours? Thanks again!
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Call Lee at ASP. His phone number is (281) 261-5811. He calls that his 10% pulley.
I don't know about the smaller pulley since I run the 10 PSI. It reduces 0-60 by about a second. You really feel the punch right from the start. With my 6-spd I'm able to be lazy and skip more shifts.
I don't know about the smaller pulley since I run the 10 PSI. It reduces 0-60 by about a second. You really feel the punch right from the start. With my 6-spd I'm able to be lazy and skip more shifts.
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From: The blue white rock, third out.
2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Re: ASP Pully
Originally posted by TonyG230
I wonder about take off, would it be easier with the increase of boost. It seems that the tourque off idle is low with the standard tranny and if the revs aren't just right it bogs a bit. Have you noticed a difference with yours? Thanks again!
I wonder about take off, would it be easier with the increase of boost. It seems that the tourque off idle is low with the standard tranny and if the revs aren't just right it bogs a bit. Have you noticed a difference with yours? Thanks again!
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From: Sacramento
AMG C43, 1999
Why not underdrive the first or inside of the crank pulley by say 30 percent then get the speed back to the AC and power steering pump and COOLANT pump by making these pulleys smaller.
By making the COOLANT pump pulley smaller could you then increase the outside of the crank pulley even larger to get say 12psi-14psi through the supercharger.
Would this remove the interferance of the belt with the Coolant pump?
Just a thought for us power junkies.
Also have anyone here tried spraying the stock intercooler with misted water to control intake air temps. It seems like there are reliable systems out there and the cost is much cheaper than a new intercooler.
Also with all this extra power I would guess the exhaust ports and piping are at or beyond there limit to rid the motor of burnt air/fuel mixture. A good header may really waken up the last few 1000 rpm or so.
Jeff
By making the COOLANT pump pulley smaller could you then increase the outside of the crank pulley even larger to get say 12psi-14psi through the supercharger.
Would this remove the interferance of the belt with the Coolant pump?
Just a thought for us power junkies.
Also have anyone here tried spraying the stock intercooler with misted water to control intake air temps. It seems like there are reliable systems out there and the cost is much cheaper than a new intercooler.
Also with all this extra power I would guess the exhaust ports and piping are at or beyond there limit to rid the motor of burnt air/fuel mixture. A good header may really waken up the last few 1000 rpm or so.
Jeff
Last edited by speedybenz; Apr 3, 2003 at 11:07 PM.
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
I though about underdriving the inside plane but no tuner does it and ASP didn't want to be first. I have an IC mister on my car, even with the Racetec IC. To get a decent kit like the Aquamist you are looking at close to $600 anyway. I made mine by using a headlamp washer pump I added and a new headlight switch added that has the headlamp washer button, then I ran tubing in front of the IC and put a commercial misting nozzle on it. Works well but I have to disconnect the heater on the windshield washer reservoir and haven't gotten around to it. With distilled water and some alcohol you get the best of all worlds, good cooling and good windshield cleaning. I also have the Labtronics IC mister controller but haven't wired that in. On really hot days I'm expecting a 20-30F drop on top of the drop from the larger IC. So for me, why not do both...
Racetec is able to port the exhaust manifold and get some ponies, just haven't gotten around to that either. Headers are nice, don't know anyone on these forums that has done it yet.
Racetec is able to port the exhaust manifold and get some ponies, just haven't gotten around to that either. Headers are nice, don't know anyone on these forums that has done it yet.
