Okay, the amp is installed in the trunk 14AWG wiring to the doors, and I think my days of Alpine Type S are over ... time to move to something more serious. I currently have:

- Pioneer AVIC z130bt double-bin nav unit
- Alpine MRX-V70 Class D 5-channel amp
- Alpine Type S speakers (SPS-610c front, SPS-610 rear)
- stock sub fitted inside rear deck
- Knukonceptz 8AWG power cable, 14AWG speaker wire, 12AWG sub wire
- Stinger 4000 series RCA cable, 6 channels

I did this upgrade in phases, starting with the head unit, then speakers, and finally amp, sub and wiring. Each phase brought significant improvements.

The Alpines did add a tremendous amount of detail lacking in the stock speakers, but midrange is a bit lacking, and most notably the tweeters are harsh. I bought some resistors to try out tweeter attenuation but ultimately I don't think it's going to help. And with the amp installed they just don't sound quite as good as they did running off the lower power head unit. Running $70 speakers off of decent amplification probably isn't going to give you the best result.

After doing some research I'm thinking either:
- Polk MM6501 (and MM651 for rear)
- Hertz HSK165 (and equivalent coax for rear)

I realize the Hertz are close to double the price of the Polks, but price difference isn't significant if I like the sound better. And people really seem to love the MMs ... (but they also love the Hertz, even over Focal)

Q: Has anyone installed the Hertz HSK165 in the w203 sedan doors? I would like to confirm that they fit (with spacer of course) before considering them any further.

Q: Has anyone compared these two speakers in the past, and if so, what are your opinions?

SeaCoupe, it looks like you have the MM's in your car. Can you elaborate on your likes and dislikes of that speaker? And is this the old MM or the new one? (I've heard there is a difference).

Fyi, my music tastes range from 70's rock to classical to musicals (orchestra & vocals). As I mentioned before, I owned a pair of B&W Matrix 804 loudspeakers for the living room, and those had an amazingly clear and present (but not shrill) vocal midrange and high end. I would love to get as close as possible to that in the car, understanding the acoustic limitations of course. I do like to crank the music loud on certain songs, and I don't want the speakers to "scream" at high volumes ... just play louder and fill the room more. And I want bass ... not booming though, just low and tight. I hate mid-bass boom.

Fyi, I realize that I will have to do better on the sub ... since the wiring is now in the trunk I think I have a lot of options there ... not worried about that right now.

Fyi, I also realize that some amount of door damping is in order. And probably MDF mounts eventually as well ... my plastic stock mounts are very stiff, so I'm guessing the benefit of using MDF mounts is that the added mass provides better resistance against speaker movement/vibration at higher end frequencies of the driver.

 

I have heard the Polks all round including the tweeters & the sound was very balanced to my critical ear. Don't even know whether they make the full rig anymore for W203.

Never heard Hertz so I can't comment.

Cars are an extremely hostile environmant for good sound. Ghetto blaster noise with excessive bass is easy.

I gave up many years ago & live with the HK Logic 7.

 

I like the higher-end Polks, sounds very smooth. Never heard Hertz speakers but a friend uses Audison amps, which I understand is made by the same company that makes Hertz.

Have you checked out MB Quart? SQ is off the charts, I've used them in all my previous cars. They have a model you may be interested in http://www.mbquart.com/qline_speakers.html



Price is around $280 from what I've seen online. My next mod is upgrading the stock sound system - keep the head unit, change the speakers & add a 4-channel amp (my car has the standard Audio 20 system).

 

I didn't add them only because I didn't see many comments from people. Per your comments I added the Q216 to my list. When you do your upgrade are you planning to use these? Fyi I suggest not leaving the stock head unit in -- get a Pioneer double-din, there is a big difference in both sound quality and features.

Also I added JBL MS-62c ... there are some people who rave about these speakers. So my short list is now:

* Polk MM6501
* Hertz HSK651
* MB Quart Q216
* JBL MS-62c

(and equivalent coax for the rear doors).

I'm still on the fence with Focal ... people seem to think they have harsh tweeters except for their polyglass series. I checked the web site and they have quite a few 6.5" component models. I need to check this out more.

 

I haven't used Focal. In past systems, I've mainly used MB Quart, Morel & JL Audio. The Morel speakers are arguably a notch or two higher in SQ than Mb Quart but also more expensive. Here is their reference two-way component speakers http://www.morelhifi.com/car-audio/supremo



I was only planning to use the stock head unit to lessen the complexity of the install (i.e. I still want to be able to control volume, track selection, etc.) through the steering wheel controls. I'm still learning about this car (only a few weeks old, just got it) so not familiar with how MB stock sound systems are setup.

I'll go with either MB Quart or Morel for the F/R speakers & a JL Audio sub later (I just found out they do not make a Stealthbox for Mercedes, bummer). For amps, I have a couple of old-school PPI Art Series amps in storage from previous builds that I will reuse after they've been reconditioned.

 

Israeli company ... is all the high end audio car audio coming from Europe? So I have a choice of Israeli, French, German or Italian speakers for my German car ... should I stay true to it's heritage? But I hear MB Quart is made in China now?

The Metra ASWC taps into the CAN-bus on the car via the wiring harness and will allow you to retain all six steering wheel controls. You will gain so much functionality from an aftermarket head unit. Different thread, but there's lots of info on this and I'll be happy to tell you more.

 

Fyi, I pulled out the decibel meter in the car today to see how loud I am playing my stereo:

On the freeway:
* car noise floor (stereo muted) ~ 84
* stereo at loudest volume I would normally listen to ~96

On slow roads or at a standstill
* car noise floor (stereo muted) ~ low 70's
* stereo at comfortably loud volume ~ 86

I forget if I could change the weighting setting on my decibel meter, but I think it is C-weighted. I am showing the muted noise levels for relative comparison.

 

After some more searching, I found some mention of a Hertz model HSK165XL, which is noticably better than the HSK165 due to a different tweeter that is less harsh. XLs are roughly $600 vs $400.

And there is another thread that claims the entrei HSK line is harsh, and you need to move to to the Mille line to get the really smooth sounding speakers. Now we're up in the $800 range.

It seems like no matter where you look, there's always something that sounds "a notch or two better SQ" at the next price point ... argh!!!

So, no I don't really feel like dropping $1000+ on speakers right now without hearing them or confirming that they even fit in the car. But I fear that if I buy a cheaper set I'll be hating them after a short period. Maybe I should just work my way up from the bottom, and expect to swap out a couple of times until I find one that I like well-enough and am willing to live with.

 

Correct, I just got off the phone with an MB Quart/Maxxonics person from their headquarters to confirm. I kind of suspected that, because the Q-series components were running $500 - 800 back in the day, and now you can find them on Ebay for much less, brand-new. I need to check out if the SQ is still there, otherwise it will be off my list.

edit: checked on Polk as well, same as MB Quart.

 

Sorry I'm late to this party. I guess one of the reasons I like Polks is the smooth dome silk tweeter. I think it allows a wider dispersion of the higher frequencies. Additionally, Silk domes will play lower frequencies than a titanium tweeter allowing for a higher soundstage.

I'm a MB Quart Fan and can easily do a titanium tweeter, but I have always ended up going back to Polks. I ran the Q series for a few months, but the low end is really not there, and I never found a likeable Sub intergration.

 

http://www.metraonline.com/part/ASWC-1

Found this, wonder if this will interface properly with a Dynavin unit? I looked at the manual for the ASWC-1 & it wasn't listed.

Seacoupe, do you have pics of your audio setup?

 

I don't have a Dynavin, but according to their web site the unit supports CAN-bus.

The CAN-bus is composed of two leads -- high voltage signal and low voltage signal -- that are on pins 9 and 11 of the large square VW harness connector. If Dynavin claims they support CAN-bus then I would assume their connectors will include the use of these two wires and you will automatically get whatever controls they have implemented. I.e. you shouldn't need to buy the ASWC.

(fyi, it looks like ASWC-1 is a replacement for ASWC ... from what I can tell they look identical).

 

Back to speakers,

Listening to my Alpine Type S's more, here is what I'm hearing:

* too trebly -- older recordings that pushed the high end, come out in a bad way on these speakers.

* loud volumes -- when I turn up the speakers to the 95+ db level (i.e. on the freeway where the noise floor is high, or when cranking a favorite rock tune), the highs get harsh and hurt my ears. Hard to listen to this for more than a short while.

* sibilance -- When I run a sine wave sweep track there is a strong peak at a fairly high frequency, which I believe is responsible for the sibilance. I don't think it's acoustics -- I think it's the speakers (others have complained about this too)

* lack of low end -- My stock sub can't fill the gap under 70, otherwise it booms in the mid-bass. better sub options will come, but dropping the low end on the door speakers should give me more flexibility and should fill out the low end "correctly".

* Imaging, sound stage -- these speakers have some, but not great. I can't really place sounds in a 3D space unless the program material really accentuates it. Otherwise they are either coming from the speakers, or from the midpoint between the speakers.

* presence -- I prefer an up-front style of sound rather than "recessed". I would also like speakers that have just a bit more "oomph" and life to them ... some material sounds good, but in general these sound just a bit flat and compressed to me.

Unfortunately it's really hard to describe a sound rather than hear it. So unless I can find w203s in the SF Bay Area with speaker upgrades that I can listen to, I think I'm going to just have to go through a few sets until I find what I'm looking for.

I have a feeling that the Hertz HSK165 (non-XL, my amp only puts out 60w/ch) may be closest to what I'm looking for, but I can't tell if those speakers will even fit in the car without major reconstruction of the mounting areas. Between the Polk MM and MB Quart Q, the Polks are cheaper and more readily available.

The Polk MM has a lower bottom end, tweeter that is not harsh, and reportedly good imaging. But does it have an up-front sound stage? And are the tweeters small enough to hide in the door triangles?

Thanks. John

 

You are basically looking for good flat response sound with good midrange presence & no accentuation of highs. Very sensible ~ you have ears!

The Polk tweeters I heard fitted with no mod in the door triangles & had a little Polk badge you could fit or leave off.

The minute you get rid of that high frequency peak the midrange will move forward because you can play a little louder without HF overpowering you. Better balance. Cars throw up crazy frequency curves. Imaging is problematic in cars because you can't change the car or speaker location. You have to do the best you can with speaker choice & their dispersion. Doped silk domes usually disperse well.

I agree with Ed. Stay away from any metal dome tweeters considering the location.

I would fit a good tight small JL Audio sub at some stage.

 

Okay, so if I stay silk, then MB Quart Q216 is out?

How about JL Audio C5-650? Those appear to be still designed and manufactured in Germany (for some reason I thought they were American), their subs have a great reputation, and the few reviews I saw on this component set were extremely positive.

JL Audio C5-650 vs Polk Audio MM6501 ... anyone have the JL Audio in their car? Is the $200 price difference worth it for what I'm looking for?

Thanks. John

 

You need to listen & decide for yourself. I'm generalising for silk vs. metal tweeters

JL Audio products are excellent & generally worth their price.

Their subs are unsurpassed. Even in high end audio today they match the best from Velodyne, Paradigm etc.

 

Yeah, it's just been struggle to find shops that have the right brands, models, and in good demo shape. I found the Polk Audio DB and MM at the local Fry's, but the DBs may not have been set up right (tinny and zero imaging) and the MMs were missing one tweeter.

I found one shop in San Jose that has Focal and JL Audio -- will check them out this weekend. Still looking for MB Quart and Hertz, and working Polk Audio ... with the help of the forums I am at least able come up with a short list to focus on.

 

^^^^ Ditto on shops that have demo equipment on stuff you want for your car.

I found this place that seems interesting http://www.kartunes.com/ . Next time I'm in Monterrey area I'm gonna drop by. They have quite a few nice MB installs.

 

I dropped by one of the shops down in Santa Clara briefly this weekend. They had a lot of Morel, and some DB Drive (?). These DB speakers sounded really good paired up with a JL Audio (looked like 12") sub. I've never seen them before, but looking online I would say they were model S7-6C.

They also push the Morel Tempo, so I looked them up online and in at least one thread this mid-level speaker is preferred over the HSK165.

 

I ended up with Hertz Energy -- ESK165.5L for the fronts and ECX165.5 for the rear. Heard them in a store and thought they had more up-front presence than the HSK or Audison. Found a great deal on open box online, and just finished the install this morning.

I also added some Dynamat to the doors ... surprisingly easy to apply -- most of the time is spent in cleaning the doors, measuring and cutting to fit around stuff. Unfortunately our doors do not have a lot of flat open panel area so I had to do this with several pieces per door. I think it made a difference though.

These speakers are a lot gutsier than the Alpines (of course at 3x the price they better be), reach much lower, the sound stage is bigger, and I can hear even more detail. Tweeters are a bit strong right now but not noticably harsh. Hopefully they will calm down a bit as they break in. I have them set flat right now.

I will also note that the tweeters were a PERFECT fit in our door triangles. After popping the wire mesh grille off the tweeter I found that it clipped perfectly into the three barbs on the door triangle that hold the stock tweeter housing. I left the foam donut in place as a pad, and the tweeter sits in a perfect position with little depth.

Fyi, this is the .5 (fifth generation) speaker, black colored cones, not the orange .4 model.

Will this be my last pair of speakers? Probably not, but I think I will last a lot longer with these than with the Alpines.