Attention KLEEMANN! Help me to understand why...
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From: Naples , FL
C230K C5, C7 Black
Attention KLEEMANN! Help me to understand why...
a supercharger pulley would retail for $900 plus install? Your profit margin must make you blush
But seriously, I have some experience with supercharging Mustangs, ok not the tech level of a MB, but the same combustion physics apply. Does the C230 ECU REALLY have enogh self adjustment range to prevent detonation with your product? How much additional boost? What about the additional charge temp? What is max stock boost? Thanks
But seriously, I have some experience with supercharging Mustangs, ok not the tech level of a MB, but the same combustion physics apply. Does the C230 ECU REALLY have enogh self adjustment range to prevent detonation with your product? How much additional boost? What about the additional charge temp? What is max stock boost? Thanks
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Pulley
First of all there are two options: $599 ring type and $899 solid alloy type. My profit margin does not make me blush- its a fair price for what you are getting.
The pulley is not a small, single plane pulley like you would put on the SC itsself. The pulley is a new crank pulley- a dual plane 9.5" diameter x 6" deep solid alloy pulley. Steel sleeved oil seal land, laser etched timing marks, hard coated. Also included in the set is a larger alt pulley to keep it at the same speed as stock, new belt, and side markers and rear trunk badge (all MBZ quality). These systems are tested and tested and tested again. I have had this dscussion before- if you think you can make an equal quality pulley for less, go for it. What amuses me is that no one is asking the same questions of other tuners _ WHO CHARGE TWICE AS MUCH_!!!!
Yes the ECU will adjust on times on the fly to reach a lambda target. Even in open loop there is a window of adjustment +/- for A/F ratio. You can put one of these cars with the boost kit on a dyno and measure the A/F ratio in any circumstance- always spot on as stock.
Max stock boost is .5 bar (7.3 psi), we run it to .65bar (9.5 psi). Never any detonation as measured with MBZ Star Diagnose computer- discharge temps increase approximately 17% pre intercooler, post intercooler temps vary with road speed, ambient conditions, cycling etc. Suffice to say that the total increase in inlet temps is about 30 deg F nominal.
The pulley is not a small, single plane pulley like you would put on the SC itsself. The pulley is a new crank pulley- a dual plane 9.5" diameter x 6" deep solid alloy pulley. Steel sleeved oil seal land, laser etched timing marks, hard coated. Also included in the set is a larger alt pulley to keep it at the same speed as stock, new belt, and side markers and rear trunk badge (all MBZ quality). These systems are tested and tested and tested again. I have had this dscussion before- if you think you can make an equal quality pulley for less, go for it. What amuses me is that no one is asking the same questions of other tuners _ WHO CHARGE TWICE AS MUCH_!!!!
Yes the ECU will adjust on times on the fly to reach a lambda target. Even in open loop there is a window of adjustment +/- for A/F ratio. You can put one of these cars with the boost kit on a dyno and measure the A/F ratio in any circumstance- always spot on as stock.
Max stock boost is .5 bar (7.3 psi), we run it to .65bar (9.5 psi). Never any detonation as measured with MBZ Star Diagnose computer- discharge temps increase approximately 17% pre intercooler, post intercooler temps vary with road speed, ambient conditions, cycling etc. Suffice to say that the total increase in inlet temps is about 30 deg F nominal.
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Originally posted by First Benz
Thanks! That was a full tech quality reply with all the facts and right answers!!! I guess I'll have to drive to Atlanta!
Thanks! That was a full tech quality reply with all the facts and right answers!!! I guess I'll have to drive to Atlanta!
I hear its a nice drive to Atlanta!
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More Tech-
The "NEW" 2.3 engines come with the same range plugs as we provided for the "OLD" systems. They are also a unique ground electrode pattern- not available in any colder range.
The intercooler is actually not that bad ( if you are moving
). The SC however is an arcane design (ROOTS). I have tossed around the idea of fitting a screw compressor on my car to explore that venue. Dont hold your breath for it becoming a product any time soon. The theoretical gains from switching to a screw (thermal and parasitac losses) are huge- 40hp at the stock boost levels.
The intercooler is actually not that bad ( if you are moving
). The SC however is an arcane design (ROOTS). I have tossed around the idea of fitting a screw compressor on my car to explore that venue. Dont hold your breath for it becoming a product any time soon. The theoretical gains from switching to a screw (thermal and parasitac losses) are huge- 40hp at the stock boost levels.
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C230
The C230 (SLK, CLK etc) 4 cylinder has been around for over 4 years. The kompressor used on that engine is an EATON, not a screw. MBZ will not change this current engine, ultimately it will be phased out. If MBZ chooses to do any future 4 cyl kompressor cars they will most likely use the screw type kompressor.
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Re: hm...
Originally posted by Scylas
whats the difference between the 2 pullies?
$599 ring type and $899 solid alloy type?
What is the difference in the gains each one produces?
whats the difference between the 2 pullies?
$599 ring type and $899 solid alloy type?
What is the difference in the gains each one produces?
I will try to post the link in this thread-
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Re: hm...
Originally posted by Scylas
whats the difference between the 2 pullies?
$599 ring type and $899 solid alloy type?
What is the difference in the gains each one produces?
whats the difference between the 2 pullies?
$599 ring type and $899 solid alloy type?
What is the difference in the gains each one produces?
I'm going to check with my dealer about getting a crankshaft pulley and send that to ASP Racing as they requested so they can make me a steel one to that's exactly like the factory unit but has a larger diameter outer ring. By having something that's similar to stock in appearance it will not cause attention during a routine service. They typically sell crankshaft pullies and supercharger pullies in the $99 to $199 range. If anyone is interested let me know. The more that want it, the cheaper the price.
Last edited by Buellwinkle; Aug 8, 2002 at 04:46 PM.
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Ok now the gloves are off-
This is hilarious- Are you suggesting that Im not being honest in what I post? "Now he claims it has a steel sleeve." Its ALWAYS had a steel sleeve- see attached picture. As for the sleeve coming loose- its a press fit on the alloy pulley and captive between the pulley and the crank- it has no where to go.
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Sorry Kleemann, I didn't know that when you said "The solid alloy pulley will be here soon." in a previous post that solid alloy means alloy except where where you used steel. I don't know how others feel but the conflicts between your posts are very disconcerting to me and don't inspire confidence from a manufacturer of high performance parts. At least the posts from Renncpe are very consistant. I'm sure that you put together a high quality product and just not sure what you are saying sometimes. You claim you are part of moderate size company with 35 employees doing high performance MB tuning yet you have to go somewhere else for your dyno tests. I just don't get it. Maybe if someone at Evosports had your pulley and had some dyno reports to look at it would clear up a lot of misconceptions. When I asked Evosports before they have never installed your pulley kits on a C230 coupe.
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From: SoCal
2002 C230 : 2007 C230
Buellwinkle,
Why are you ragging on Kleemann? I don't dive into the details of every one of his posts, but he seems honest & knowledgeable to me. I think he is much more trustworthy than some others floating around here. Ease up a bit.
KWiK
Why are you ragging on Kleemann? I don't dive into the details of every one of his posts, but he seems honest & knowledgeable to me. I think he is much more trustworthy than some others floating around here. Ease up a bit.
KWiK
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
I don't know why, may it's my NY cynicism, maybe it's the way he changes his story, maybe it's because he feels that nobody on this forum is capable doing what they do and if we try we will damage our cars. Heck, maybe he's right but I take it as a put down and a challange. When someone tells me I can't do something I feel I have to prove them wrong, it's just me!
Blah Blah Blah
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From: bucks county
black on black 2k2-230k auto/c1/c5/c7/k2c/COMAND/TELEAID/Stage II HIDS
i have to admit i have been a bit too busy at work to really follow EVERY thread on pullies, and we talk about them a lot. I have to believe that companies like carlsson, renntech, brabus, and kleeman know what they are doing.
These people tune mercedes, thats about it. They have been positively reviewed in numerous independent magazines, and are highly respected in the automotive world. Their products command a premium dollar for 2 reason: 1. there is not a lotta MB tuning companies, 2. their stuff has to work reliably, and seemlessly integrate into a very complex, very well engineered car.
If you want to let some guy make a pully for you, go for it... save 600 bucks. I much prefer to buy a product i know was TESTED and DEVELOPED for my car/engine. But if something goes wrong with the pully upgrade from joe blow's pullies are they gonna know what went wrong??? they just made a pully for a car they really dont know anything about.
I prefer to work on my mercedes with companies that SPECIALIZE on mercedes. but thats just me.... and then again my car is bone stock with a carbon fiber plate frame as its only mod
These people tune mercedes, thats about it. They have been positively reviewed in numerous independent magazines, and are highly respected in the automotive world. Their products command a premium dollar for 2 reason: 1. there is not a lotta MB tuning companies, 2. their stuff has to work reliably, and seemlessly integrate into a very complex, very well engineered car.
If you want to let some guy make a pully for you, go for it... save 600 bucks. I much prefer to buy a product i know was TESTED and DEVELOPED for my car/engine. But if something goes wrong with the pully upgrade from joe blow's pullies are they gonna know what went wrong??? they just made a pully for a car they really dont know anything about.
I prefer to work on my mercedes with companies that SPECIALIZE on mercedes. but thats just me.... and then again my car is bone stock with a carbon fiber plate frame as its only mod
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From: Olympia, Washington
KLEEMANN C230K
I have seen many threads here become so abrasive they lose sight of the original topic, as this is causing me to lose interest in the topic, and making me want to jump down buellwinkle's throat. I will instead try to redeem myself after ranting by saying:
I'm sure if you would like to make a pulley, KLEEMANN will not be upset, jealous, or lose any business. If you have ever had a conversation with him you know he is very helpful, knowledgable, and always truthful. He will point out any faults he see's, even in his own product (which isn't put to test all that often). He has MANY years experience in forced induction. If we sit down and speak (not banter and argue) with one another, we may realize "oops, I/you misunderstood what you/I said/asked/wrote".
My posting habits on this forum have dwindled because of this bull$h!t attitude, "I think you are wrong (because I don't understand you), but can't prove it, so I'll just bash you".
But what do I know, I'm an A$$HOLE
GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR .................. I SAID GOOD DAY!!!
John.
I'm sure if you would like to make a pulley, KLEEMANN will not be upset, jealous, or lose any business. If you have ever had a conversation with him you know he is very helpful, knowledgable, and always truthful. He will point out any faults he see's, even in his own product (which isn't put to test all that often). He has MANY years experience in forced induction. If we sit down and speak (not banter and argue) with one another, we may realize "oops, I/you misunderstood what you/I said/asked/wrote".
My posting habits on this forum have dwindled because of this bull$h!t attitude, "I think you are wrong (because I don't understand you), but can't prove it, so I'll just bash you".
But what do I know, I'm an A$$HOLE
GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR .................. I SAID GOOD DAY!!!
John.
Last edited by dj-po; Mar 27, 2002 at 12:49 AM.
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??
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
I don't know why, may it's my NY cynicism, maybe it's the way he changes his story, maybe it's because he feels that nobody on this forum is capable doing what they do and if we try we will damage our cars. Heck, maybe he's right but I take it as a put down and a challange. When someone tells me I can't do something I feel I have to prove them wrong, it's just me!
I don't know why, may it's my NY cynicism, maybe it's the way he changes his story, maybe it's because he feels that nobody on this forum is capable doing what they do and if we try we will damage our cars. Heck, maybe he's right but I take it as a put down and a challange. When someone tells me I can't do something I feel I have to prove them wrong, it's just me!
Not sure what Im saying? I can assure you I am certain of what I am saying- always- I would suggest that the interpretation of the post is the problem. I have never meant to put any one down- I apologize if you have taken it this way.
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2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
Re: Pulley
Originally posted by KLEEMANN
What amuses me is that no one is asking the same questions of other tuners _ WHO CHARGE TWICE AS MUCH_!!!!
What amuses me is that no one is asking the same questions of other tuners _ WHO CHARGE TWICE AS MUCH_!!!!
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
If you cant hold a 1/2 thousand tolerance your out of balance force can be enough to shake the engine apart- are you willing to take this risk to save a few bucks? And what about the oil seal surface? An all alloy pulley would last about 2 days before the oil seal ate a groove deep enough in the crank to puke most of the oil out of the sump.
My take on it is that RennTech doesn't want to sell pullies and therefore priced themselves out of the market on purpose. My price complaint from the very begining has been that Kleemann sells a set of underdrive pullies for BMWs for $399 yet charges MB customers $899 for the overdrive crankshaft pullies. I understand that the crankshaft pulley is more complex because it drives 2 belts but I don't understand why it's $500 more complex. I think more people would do it if the prices were more inline with other pulley kits, even your own.
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Keine Teile für BMW
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
My price complaint from the very begining has been that Kleemann sells a set of underdrive pullies for BMWs for $399 yet charges MB customers $899 for the overdrive crankshaft pullies. I understand that the crankshaft pulley is more complex because it drives 2 belts but I don't understand why it's $500 more complex. I think more people would do it if the prices were more inline with other pulley kits, even your own.
My price complaint from the very begining has been that Kleemann sells a set of underdrive pullies for BMWs for $399 yet charges MB customers $899 for the overdrive crankshaft pullies. I understand that the crankshaft pulley is more complex because it drives 2 belts but I don't understand why it's $500 more complex. I think more people would do it if the prices were more inline with other pulley kits, even your own.
