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Decided to check my chain today, had no warning signs at all (no misfires, no check engine light, no rattle, etc) opened up the valve cover and here's what i saw:
Your engine is fine as it is right now. But, I wouldn't drive it.
The timing chain isn't that hard to change - as long as you have the RIGHT tools.
Imho, buy the timing chain tool. Or, have a dealer fix the car.
Sorry people, *I* do not condone any of the home solutions.
Maybe other people's car/engine isn't worth squat. Or, more specifically, buying a "massively outrageously costly"$100 tool.
But, my engine and car are. Fwiw, just because the chain link hasn't failed yet, that doesn't mean that it was done correctly.
Imho, if people don't have a structural engineering degree/background, I could understand.
If they do, then please send me the name of your college/university, so I can have their degree revoked.
Well, from someone that does know better, and has the degrees and experience, I say buy the tool!
Also, you'll need/want a new tensioner.
It seems like the IWIS timing chain is the MB timing chain.
Btw, you take the alternator out from the top. I also had to use an e-torx box-wrench (##*& #*&#&~!!) to remove a bolt from the bottom of the alternator.
Btw, no need to buy the MB $$$$$ timing chain tool. There are plenty of clones. You won't be using it that much. After searching and comparing, I got one from ebay.
Do a search for:
Timing Chain Change Vehicle Motor Niet Tools rivets riveted Mercedes W203 W212
It's sold by: cnautomotivetools
And it's in a BLUE box and it has *Two Metal* latches.
It costs a massive $99 (s&h included)
Note: The box does not have a single plastic latch. Most of the cheaper tools do. They'll likely also work. But, I don't know about their attachments and the M271 engine chain.
Imho, the tool is more than good enough. The tool will work more than well enough for replacing as many timing chains as you want on your car.
Red, Great pointer to the tool!
Did you fish the new chain around the lower sprocket and then re-set the timing,
or rotate the crank+both cams in sync to pull the new chain?
Red, Great pointer to the tool!
Did you fish the new chain around the lower sprocket and then re-set the timing,
or rotate the crank+both cams in sync to pull the new chain?
I also removed the head. So, I did the first method.
Other pointers I can think of, you'll need a big socket to turn the crank. I forget the size right now. It's over 1".
You'll want/need two big adjustable wrenches to move the cam adjusters inward when you connect the chain.
I first made sure I understood and saw the balancer timing mark go to zero, and both of the cam timing marks align with the pointer on the cam housing.
From what I read, it is possible to do the job very quickly - if you trust and want to leave the timing chain tensioner.
Just thread the new timing chain in, push against the adjusted guide (on the left), use wrenches/etc to pull in the cam adjusters, and connect the free link of the timing chain. So, no need to remove the serpentine belt, baffle, alternator, timing chain adjuster & cap, etc.
I may try that in ~60K miles.
Btw, the timing chain adjuster has a "push in cap" (like a freeze plug) that covers the adjuster. Put a hole in it with a screw driver, and pry it out. You'll need/want a new plug.
Scaredy cats....I've mcgyvered every timing chain link I've done, including the M271, and all those cars are still running. It's not rocket science...but I am an aerospace engineer so maybe that helped. You don't need some expensive proprietary tool, just good judgement and a little innovation. Tomorrow I'm doing the timing belt on a Tacoma, the job calls for a ton of specialty tools that I neither have nor plan to obtain. No wonder we don't make stuff in this country anymore....
Scaredy cats....I've mcgyvered every timing chain link I've done, including the M271, and all those cars are still running. It's not rocket science...but I am an aerospace engineer so maybe that helped. You don't need some expensive proprietary tool, just good judgement and a little innovation. Tomorrow I'm doing the timing belt on a Tacoma, the job calls for a ton of specialty tools that I neither have nor plan to obtain. No wonder we don't make stuff in this country anymore....
I'm far from being a scaredy cat.
It's called being an experienced Principal engineer.
Aerospace engineering is different than structural or materials engineer.
As you know, the number of engineering specialties makes the number of medical specialties look like T-ball (For the non Americans: "baseball" for 4 years olds where the kids hit the ball from a rubber-T holding pole).
My main specialty isn't structural. But, I work with a number of PhDs that do have that as their main specialty, and also are gear-heads. I also remember, and I'm still learning, about real-life structural design.
Plus, I've been working on cars long enough to know the difference between "this hack works for now" and "this is the correct way to do things".
Fwiw, I'm a tri-degree engineer -- mechanical & electrical & computer. Still, I've done a wide range of stuff - from specifying custom springs (similar to a car spring), to PWM electronics, to software. There are many products that require that type of breadth of knowledge and experience. Working on an ABS system is one of the most commonly known automotive product. Printers are one of the most commonly known general products.
Fwiw, for example, the method for screwing down the head on a M271 is very specific. A specific pattern in 3 steps - Torque to x-Nm, 90 degrees, then again 90 degrees.
If someone just cranks the head bolt down once, or uses an old head bolt !WTF! - ARG!! , the head and gasket will likely last some amount of time.
But, the engineers that specified the torque to yield bolts and the pattern didn't do it because they were bored. Just look at the JOKE "reliability" of the GM aluminum heads for all of their engines until that POS mismanaged company went under. GM was infamous for doing low-cost cheap aluminum head design (the heads, the bolts, the block holes, the torquing method, etc).
Yet, many people replaced head gaskets, the engine ran for 1-3-whatever years, and they claimed victory and the reason for the re-failure being the design. My Olds Quad 4 (super infamous for mega POS heads) has 12+ years on the head gasket that I redid.
I have 2 cars over 25 years old. My "new to me" 2005 C230K will eventually join my 25+ year old club. That's why I JUMPED on my car when I saw it. It was never driven in the snow. The body/etc is on very good shape.
The engine had an rare occasional cylinder misfire. BFD about the misfire. That's "easy" to fix ( for me , just not cheap or quick).
Where as, a rusted frame, bad body, worn interior, etc would be for me very expensive and cost/time prohibitive.
For a body-work person, they would likely look at buying/fixing a used car the opposite of how I do.
I do things as specified by the manufacture's design engineers and by the ASE (http://www.ase.com/). I have a few friends that are ASE certified mechanics.
If people want to do things by "what they think makes sense", that's their choice. No dealer would hire them or allow that type of work. That alone should say something.
Red - Thanks a bunch for pointing us (me) to that timing chain tool! Do you have a part # for the cap that covers the timing chain adjuster?
Oops, above, I incorrectly typed:
"the timing chain adjuster is part number"
when I should have typed:
"the plug for timing chain adjuster is part number".
I fixed the above, and the quote below.
Thanks for catching that!
Btw, for the cost, I suggest you may want to get two. That way, if you make a mistake putting the first one in, you can see how to best put it in, then take it out (manged ), and put the second one in.
I bought a couple of the cheaper Febi plugs from Pelican Parts, since all the plug really does is help to keep the dirt, oil, grime, and water out from the adjuster - and potentially rusting the adjuster and/or the threads/hole.
See below:
Originally Posted by RedGray
Btw, the plug for timing chain adjuster is part number: 0009976220
So called couple indys and dealerships for quote on chain & tensioner replacement cheapest $2500 one dealership wanted $4700 and another indy wanted $2800 is it really that expensive to do or they just trying to get my money?
It's a lot of work, but $4700 is to expensive.
I don't know how much one hour labor is in USA? In the Netherlands it is $132 for one hour.
I think it is approx 8 a 10H work. Then the parts.
Imho, sounds reasonable to me. Typical local mechanic rates are around $100/hr. Dealer rates are ~$180->$250/hr.
It also depends on if you're talking about MB OEM parts. Figure a retail price of ~$500+ for timing chain and adjuster.
I attached a time estimate from the MB ASRA time estimator.
I mentioned before about the problems of calling around for prices. I should do a post and just list all of the info there. Basically, imho, you're just some scum that the "random" mechanic couldn't give a damn about. As long as the repair works/lasts for ~1 year, then BFD.
So, you can ask for MB OEM parts, he can tell you he changed the oil, he can tell you anything. In real-life, imho, 95% of the time, the mechanic/owner is going to put the cheapest cr*p in the car that he thinks will last ~1year.
Let me put it this way, if you get the bill from the mechanic, go home, and see that he undercharged you by $40 because of a typo error, would you say anything? Imho, 99.99999999% wouldn't. You'll never see that low-life scum mechanic again.
So, the mechanic/owner often have the same view of people that shop around and they see for the first time. Plus, they know where you live and the other local mechanics. So, unless they are the closest one, they know it's unlikely that they'll see you again. The next time, you'll also call around and go with whoever is cheapest.
I personally knew 4 shop owners. There are some honest shop owners. They get a local reputation, and if they can survive long enough, they often get repeated and referred business. But, it is much harder for them.
I know my local mechanic. I did this purposely many years ago.
I've been taking my daily driver to him for many years to get misc stuff done. I often also do preventive maintenance. I don't have the time/or desire to do simple stuff on these cars.
Heck I have ~10,000 YEARS of mods/parts/etc in my basement waiting for my Mustang. Now, I picked up my C230. Argg!
My hobby and passion is cars. But, doing stuff like exhaust or idler pulley on my daily drivers doesn't interest me. Imho, it's more than worth it to me to have my local mechanic do it. Also, that way, if something breaks on these cars, I can just throw the car at him and say "fix it" , verses my spending time on the problem, trying to find/make time, etc.
It is different for some stuff on my daily drivers. I did a rather extensive restoration on one of them. That took me ~9months. Doing a head gasket on a FWD car was something I never did before, so that interested me. But, I no longer have interest in replacing stock exhaust stuff (I need to do it ~x years on my daily drivers because of wet lands near me, etc).
So, I now know that my local mechanic won't screw me, since he knows I'm a long-time repeat and good customer.
Also, he's been mounting ~2-4 tires/year for me for the past 10+ years. I use Blizzak snows, and I replace them before they are ~1/2 worn and the ice-portion is then worn, and the tread is also less deep. Plus, I go through tires on my Mustang, since I use (very fast wearing) Summer-Only Ultra Performance tires, and I swap then out when they get worn or old.
Btw, fwiw, I asked him if he did work on MB cars. He said he "wouldn't even touch them"! Yea, I don't blame him - too much and too many unique things.
Imho, that also now gives me the unquestionable justification get a lift in my garage (for the ease of work) - YES!!!!!!!!!
RedGray - do you have links to the procedure(s) to replace the timing chain? I'd like to look at both removing the head and just pulling a new chain thru along with replacing the tensioner.
I've attached a number of files. They describe how to do the timing chain and replace the cylinder head. There are likely some duplicates.
Fwiw, imho, just replacing the head gasket on an M271 does little. Imho, the big problem is that oil cakes up on the valve faces and seats, and the valves and seats need to be fixed.
So, imho, you need to have the head rebuilt, or you need to get a new head.
So finally got around to take off the valve cover completely and do it the "correct" way aligning the marks on camshafts sprockets and look the the pulley with degrees. So there it was right around 5-6 degrees off. Is it still ok stretch for a 95k miles chain? BTW chain was REALLY tight, i mean i couldn't even move it at all, whats do you guys think? The sprockets were in great condition too.
BTW the chain tension in first post video (https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...hain-m271.html) was so loose was to due crankshaft moving back and causing the chain to look like that, once i put it on correct TDC it was tight as hell
The timing chain should be very tight.
On my car that has 82K miles, I had to use wrenches on the cam adjusters to let the tension off enough in order to let me remove a link to take off the timing chain.
RedGray - do you have links to the procedure(s) to replace the timing chain? I'd like to look at both removing the head and just pulling a new chain thru along with replacing the tensioner.
Thanks!
95k miles. Chain stretched about 6 or 7 degrees. Not sure how critical is that because i have no symptoms other than actually looking at the chain itself in TDC
C230 Sport Coup + 2006 W164 ML350 + 99 Ford Escort (What the heck, it gets 38 mpg!)
Originally Posted by RWDlifer
It's not rocket science...but I am an aerospace engineer so maybe that helped...
It's not rocket science, though I AM a rocket scientist.
And Red Grey what's with all ***** going in your ****ing posts anyway?
Mother****ing ***** piece of ******* Mercedes ******ing cost so *****ing much to repair god***** it!!!
Bwaa haa!
Glad to see some folks with a clue replacing all those old f***ers who sold their 203's years ago....
Anyway, 2 threads I've read so far this am, and glad neither one effects me.
M111 = dual timing chain, and no fancy alternator pullies that eat AC compressors.
Gawd, what is that, a bicycle chain? Good thing you caught it time.
Last edited by C230 Sport Coup; 11-15-2016 at 01:48 PM.
Putting my car under the knife this week. Paid an indie 1h to take a look with a boroscope, revealing a bit of sag (but "not too bad") in the chain. Apparently the guy just went in through the oil filler cap hole. Why didn't I think of this.
In any case, the indie-quoted price was pretty much identical to the stealer quote. Some 8h labour, and almost $1k in parts. Might as well go the stealer route, as the stealer is also much closer.
The MB shop foreman insisted that internet forums are often wrong and that there is nothing to worry about until a rattling sound is heard. Go figure.
Grab some popcorn and stay tuned, boys and girls.
Last edited by slammer111; 11-21-2016 at 04:55 AM.
Putting my car under the knife this week. Paid an indie 1h to take a look with a boroscope, revealing a bit of sag (but "not too bad") in the chain. Apparently the guy just went in through the oil filler cap hole. Why didn't I think of this.
In any case, the indie-quoted price was pretty much identical to the stealer quote. Some 8h labour, and almost $1k in parts. Might as well go the stealer route, as the stealer is also much closer.
The MB shop foreman insisted that internet forums are often wrong and that there is nothing to worry about until a rattling sound is heard. Go figure.
Grab some popcorn and stay tuned, boys and girls.
Robbery...definitely doesn't take anywhere close to 1k in parts...Timing chain, tensioner, 2 of 3 guides and associated gaskets comes to less than 500 bux. Unless you're replacing other parts. I DIYed mine for about $300, including the beer.
Keep in mind that the same part in Canadaland costs more (sometimes more than double) what they charge in USA. Unfortunately the dealer will obviously use only their own official parts. There's a reason I (and many Canadians) still buy a lot of car parts and other stuff from American distributors, even with the exchange rate.
Not too much of a choice for this one unfortunately, as this car is my only vehicle and I can't afford to have the engine apart for a few days. I know the SA personally, so trust that he'll give me the best price. Also this will ensure the job is done properly. The dealers in Canada are all corporate.
I'll post the invoice later and maybe some of you guys who have DIYed this job before can compare.
Originally Posted by RWDlifer
Robbery...definitely doesn't take anywhere close to 1k in parts...Timing chain, tensioner, 2 of 3 guides and associated gaskets comes to less than 500 bux. Unless you're replacing other parts. I DIYed mine for about $300, including the beer.
Would you believe me if the indie wanted $157 CAD for the tensioner and $275 for the timing chain? ($1.34 CAD = $1USD) Before taxes, of course.
RWDlifer, did you have to touch the vaccum pump, alternator, or serpentine belt for this job?
Last edited by slammer111; 11-21-2016 at 03:11 PM.
Keep in mind that the same part in Canadaland costs more (sometimes more than double) what they charge in USA. Unfortunately the dealer will obviously use only their own official parts. There's a reason I (and many Canadians) still buy a lot of car parts and other stuff from American distributors, even with the exchange rate.
Not too much of a choice for this one unfortunately, as this car is my only vehicle and I can't afford to have the engine apart for a few days. I know the SA personally, so trust that he'll give me the best price. Also this will ensure the job is done properly. The dealers in Canada are all corporate.
I'll post the invoice later and maybe some of you guys who have DIYed this job before can compare.
Would you believe me if the indie wanted $157 CAD for the tensioner and $275 for the timing chain? ($1.34 CAD = $1USD) Before taxes, of course.
RWDlifer, did you have to touch the vaccum pump, alternator, or serpentine belt for this job?
Alternator (and therefore serpentine belt) must be removed to access tensioner. Vac pump is waay on the other side of the motor, no need to mess with it for this job. BTW the tensioner is more expensive than the chain....
11-05-2016, 09:25 PM
Timing chain M271
Or, have a dealer fix the car.
Might as well go the stealer route, as the stealer is also much closer.
