Glyn M Ruck

Above in red.

iunlock

Very well.

At the end of the day, regardless of where Amsoil may get their additives from etc... when it comes down to it in the ring, I'm still curious as to why huge corporations like Mobil1 wouldn't shed any light to make any counter claims?

It's very obvious that these huge corporate conglomerates only have one thing in mind, which is to produce it as cheap as possible to have a bigger profit margin.

So it makes sense why Mobil1 and other huge corporations wouldn't develop an oil that would last as long, because if they did...even an oil to last twice as longer, that's 50% slap in profits they'd be losing.

IMO, smaller companies like Amsoil have a lot more freedom to develop better oil because they don't have all the over head and bs to worry about...

On the flip side of the coin, with Mobil1 and MB together, that's a huge market over those who use Amsoil...

Still yet...Mobil1's silence pretty much is acquiescence to the fact that Amsoil is a better oil. They know it, but won't admit it.

As for the "approved" non-sense, to me that's all political . Why would MB approve such and oil like Amsoil, knowing that it is better if MB has a contract with Mobil1 which is inferior? There is a lot of money that goes into all the approval process, which is clearly political.

ie...Let's take organic foods for example. Huge marketing gimmick by the way in that stores like Wholefoods get some of their organics from China. SCARY! That's why we go to local farmers market to buy wild harvested foods because we know it was grown from people who really care about producing the best produce without the use of chemicals and pesticides. However, it still doesn't sport a pretty little USDA organic sticker on it, which is crap. Get the point? All this approval stamp etc...is political rubbish IMO. Whatever will do the job with the highest profit margin will get the stamp of "approval." Most industries in a lot of categorizes are the same way. It's all about the MONEY!

splinter

It is quite unbecoming to besmirch any man’s livelihood, since doing so only serves to undermine coherent discussion of your chosen topic.
Particularly from a member who was ostensibly unable to locate his own fuel line without repeatedly requesting assistance.

Although Mr. Ruck and I don’t always agree, his CV with regards to lubricants and fuels likely surpasses yours.
Certainly you’re aware boutique lubricant marketers source their base stock and additives from established (“supermajor”) crude refineries and chemical laboratories, yes?
Exxon-Mobil needn’t be bothered by them in its sales campaigns, simply because they already sell more ‘synthetic’ motor oil than a vast majority of other lubricant (and energy) concerns.

That aforementioned self-serving dissertation from “A.J. Amatuzio, founder, President and CEO of AMSOIL” and his contributions’ to tribology and MLM notwithstanding, it’s curious his business hasn’t yet invested in securing MB’s rigorous 229.5 approval regimen. That’s not to say AMSOIL, RedLine, Royal Purple et al haven’t burrowed out their own niche segment. I’ve poured a friend’s gratis AMSOIL motor oil in my lawnmower, and used RedLine’s gearbox lubricant and hydraulic damper fluid with no failures to date.

Of course you’re welcome to use whichever motor oil you deem appropriate.

Glyn M Ruck

Well - you are wrong in your assumptions. AMSOIL products are not better than the majors. They stand no chance.

As for the approval process. All they need to do is submit a sample & the test fee. If it passes it will be listed. If it fails Benz will tell them where it fails & tell them to go back & do their homework. No politics in the process. MB's racing partners are no longer Mobil. They are Petronas from Malaysia. When Mobil supported their racing endeavours it got them a sticker but no priority on the approvals listing.

Interestingly - It is the likes of AMSOIL that are trying to maximise profit. They could go straight to a highly reputable additive company like Lubrizol & buy a pre approved Benz additive system. Dose it at 16% into a known decent base oil from SK Corp in Korea or whoever and they would immediately be given a listing. Of course the premium additive system would be costly & deter them.

BTW - lots of small companies on the approved listing!

MinnBobber

iunlock----I hope you realize that Glyn probably has more knowledge of oils than the rest of the board members combined
Plus, he has no self serving motives, he's just sharing his knowledge of MB oil requirements and that Amzoil is not MB certified but could elect to do so.

He has explained that Amzoils "oil demonstrations" are not relevant for the qualities needed to pass MB tests.
To use a wine analogy, Mobil is like the giant French wine producer that has a whole range of wines, from bargain priced value wines to top tier collector wines. Amzoil is like the small wine "maker" that buys its stock of wines from around the world and blends its own. Amzoil is probably a good/ very good? oil but the MB certified oils are great oils.

I'd rather go with the sure thing (MB certif) than take a chance on the Amzoil blend of oil and additives purchased/blended by them
You may opt to do otherwise.

DonjuanOriginal

My German Parts friend. Stopped selling the mobil 1. And is selling Motul 8100 x-cess 5w40
now, 229.5 approved. reason why i bring it up. he works at one of the biggest german parts supplier in the toronto area. And he doesn't use mobil 1. i did an oil change last week guess what i used. Mobil 1. to each there own. So original poster. forget the politics stuff. Take the info and use it. Thanks Glyn.

iunlock

I think you took it the wrong way as there was no intent to "besmirch" his livelihood. So you can erase that out of your head.

Secondly, as this is the first MB I've owned before my Audi, I wasn't familiar right off hand exactly where it was located so it was a quick question in hopes to receive a quick response. I've never taken the plastic off at that time ...that was then..now is now.

I have much respect for Mr. Ruck's knowledge as it is apparent he knows his stuff. Therefore, your smart head statement was and is unnecessary.

It's safe to say that the intent of the CEO's of oil companies will all have different views and goals in how they go about their business...

iunlock

I realize that and have never denied that. He's very knowledgeable and it's nice to have people like him around.

I love the wine analogy, that's perfect. However, you know that a lot of small wine makers will school the larger wine makers and still be cheaper. There's more love that goes into producing the wine...there are some fabulous wines in Europe, small family owned vineyards that will humiliate the large vineyards of America.

Then again...wine can be just wine to some people as oil can be just oil. The beauty in all this is that we all have a choice.

iunlock

Again, to me it sounds like just because Amsoil oil and/or other oils aren't MB approved, that sets the benchmark to say that only MB approved oils are superior than the rest?

I really want to understand this and hope you can help enlighten me. Really

From what I've read so far, it seems that the basis behind which oil is best is all based on what MB says...based on their requirements...their tests...their standards...

I beg to differ in that, just because MB says something, it means that it is absolutely the only oil of choice. This would mean that all the conclusions about MB approved oils being better than non MB approved oils are solely based on MB, which is just ...well ONE company out of the many.

Maybe other oil companies don't care about what MB says, therefore, has no interest in getting anything approved by MB. Who knows...

At any rate, it is very interesting where this topic has ventured off to. I appreciate your knowledge and please forget what the other guy said with his assumptions.

Glyn M Ruck

All I am saying is that MB approved oils are best & superior to others for your Benz with it's design, chosen metallurgy & chosen clearances from cold to operating temperature, chosen blown polyester "fleece" filtration (developed with Mann+Hummel) & desired drain interval. Of greatest importance is protection of cam & tappet area hence Benz stringent HTHS spec where base oil & VI Improver selection is so crucial. This is why some Mobil 1 products are listed/approved and others are not. Some fail the Benz HTHS spec. HTHS = high temperature, high shear. On top of this we have AMG division that only wants certain viscometrics as owners will note from their Operating Manual. This is once again due to the aggressive cams they run & HTHS.

You might find reading my Definitive --- oil thread beneficial (W203 forum sticky)

iunlock

Roger that.

With your knowledge I'd like your personal opinion, whether based on facts or not...just out of curiosity.

"Do you think Amsoil would pass any of MB's test and be just as good of an oil as the ones that are approved by MB?"

"Have you ever used Amsoil and if so, what was your experience?"

"Has your company ever tested Amsoil and put it up to the MB approved oils?"

"Why isn't there any documentation from any of the oil companies that Amsoil tested against to disapprove Amsoil's claims?" - Wouldn't you think if they could they would? This is something I just don't get...

If you were company A and company B came along and made claims to prove that your oil is inferior, wouldn't it be in the best interest of company A to say......here's the deal to prove you wrong.

Til' this day, without seeing any supported documentation from any other oil companies, it still seems that they know the truth and are scared to go head to head with Amsoil because they know that they'll lose.

If not the case then...why? It's quite simple.

pnoyworx

So much info and debate can me made here, but the truth is that in the existence of Amsoil it has never been proven wrong. Many certified independent test facilities, controlled and some by government. Only thing you will find are speculations, and doubts about it's quality because they way they market which relates to why some of their product is not certified. I have never been an expert, but the law is simple, the data is real and track history does not lie. It will continue to be challenged, and people will continue to tell you otherwise.
Truth is that most oils technology are so close the thou will not see a difference in real world. Approved and Certified is just a sticker that cost a lot of money, because even second rate/ third rate oils can be sold and rebranded by Walmart with certified and approved badges. So as some would state, only use approved or certified to stay safe with our warranty, then going with these lower cheaper oil, would not affect it either, so why waste money on these specially formulated oils. Mercedes and other car makers know they have very little challenge when it comes to proving oil was the cause of damage. Car makers can only recommend one brand in their best interest because they have to pay that one company for all the test, and to test their oils in their engine would cost too much to test all(brands) of them in a controlled situation. These test only show that it does work within a margin of each tolerance given by the engine. This is why Mercedes, and other car makers can not claim not to use other brands, because they would have no data to backup that claim. The law agrees with this also, at least here in the US. NO automaker can make you use a certain brand, NO automaker can deny your warranty due to the oil or time interval change.
After all this debate... it all comes down to, there are a lot of great brands out there, use common sense, and the right weight recommendation and know the that you are protected by law.

Cheers

splinter

Items Which Are Not Covered:

DAMAGE DUE TO LACK OF MAINTENANCE:
Lack of proper maintenance as
described in the Maintenance Booklet.
Use of service parts or fluids, such as
paper oil filters or improper engine oil,
which are non-approved by MBUSA, will
cause engine damage not covered by the
warranty.


http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalA...on_booklet.pdf

pnoyworx

FTC regulations state: (c) No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. (15 U.S.C.2302(C))

http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/do-i...urers-oil.html (read all but specifically Potential warranty problems, and flack from oil wars.)

Many oil brands tend not to get new certifications to keep price low while they pass all required testing to be certified, in example with GM's Dexos. This has been an on going practice for many years. NO matter what it says in your manual... it does not supersede the laws that govern them.


the federally mandated Magnuson-Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require the use of a specific brand of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge.

splinter

It is the owner’s responsibility to maintain
the vehicle according to the
Maintenance Schedule provided. All
maintenance services must be accomplished
to keep your warranty coverage
valid. When requesting service or repair
work under warranty, the owner
must present to the authorized Mercedes-
Benz Center evidence that the
periodic servicing requirements have
been accomplished. Receipts covering
completion of required servicing
should be retained in the event a question
arises concerning maintenance.

These receipts should be transferred to
each subsequent owner of the vehicle.
For your convenience, the Maintenance
Booklet has been designed to incorporate
the signature of your authorized
Mercedes-Benz Center upon completion
of the required maintenance services.
This signature is evidence of completion
of the maintenance services and
should be kept together with other receipts,
repair orders and invoices.

If the owner has a warranty claim and
can show through receipted invoices
that the vehicle has received the required
servicing, the authorized Mercedes-
Benz Center will perform the
warranty work without charging for
parts and labor.

It is the responsibility
of the owner to prove and the authorized
Mercedes-Benz Center to judge
whether the required maintenance has
been performed.

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalA...on_booklet.pdf

pnoyworx

I undersand all these "Guidelines". But the law is clear. You do not need to take your car to a Mercedes Dealership for your warranty to hold. Proper data log, from either an ASE certified shop can suffice. Again the Auto maker has to prove first the cause of damage is the DIRECT cause for anything, then can they only void warranty if this has been proven.

Thanks for your input.

Glyn M Ruck

You may continue dreaming up conspiracy theories. Your time might be better spent chasing up the location of that missing fuel line. You don't get it so leave it at that. I've told you our information is proprietary but suffice to say I would not put any of AMSOIL's present formulations in my Benz.

Case closed.

Glyn M Ruck

Yes - in the US & Australia etc. you do not have to use a dealership of the Brand to maintain warranty. However, Benz would simply take an oil sample in the case of an engine failure & do an IR scan. They can immediately tell if the oil has the approved chemical signature & if you have added aftermarket additives to it. Simple & they do this automatically if a failure is experienced. They also do random sampling globally of approved products to ensure that oil companies that have approvals are putting in the can what they say they are. Claims & nomenclature have to be globally consistent on all approved products.

EDIT - we have just such a case recently on a new Benz ML. Idiot put Seafoam in the oil & diesel. Damaged the injection system. Benz USA has voided warranty on the engine & the fellow is in for a really nasty bill.

splinter

My intent by posting here was to help protect that small portion of our potentially naive and uniformed membership from bogus information.

Your first post in this thread directed readers to a site spuriously claiming “the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of…the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes.” Then you seemingly offered legal advice stating that “NO automaker can deny your warranty due to the oil or time interval change.” Both of those statements are incorrect according to MBUSA.

The MBUSA warranty is an enforceable legal agreement. It’s chocked full of stipulations and conditions which must be met in order to remain in effect and valid. It contains pages of exclusions that can render the warranty void. I needn’t remind our readers that performing maintenance at MBUSA’s specified time & mileage service intervals is mandatory to ensure the warranty remains in effect. Not doing so will indeed render the warranty void, as per the written warranty agreement. I’m not pulling this information out of thin air or belittling anyone; it’s there for all to read. Failures stemming from lack of proper maintenance are not covered. And yes, it’s incumbent upon the owner to provide proof of completion for any and all service. Professing that some oil guy swore his formulation didn’t need to be changed at the mandated intervals won’t cut it with the zone rep if the fit hits the shan with an engine that’s come unglued.

Finally, nowhere in this thread did I or MBUSA’s warranty agreement state anyone was compelled to “take your car to a Mercedes Dealership for your warranty to hold.”

Thanks for your input.

Domm

You're along the guidelines of "wheres the proof that UFOs or bigfoot DOESN'T exist?" If theres no evidence to disprove their existence then they exist.

iunlock

Just when I thought you were one to be respected. As it turns out you just proved to be a jack...

Conspiracy theories? Asking questions to seek an answer is dreaming up conspiracy theories? Get real man. For someone who works for an oil company you're obviously biased. It's clear.

You can't even answer my questions.

At this point any input from you is now

iunlock

How's so? Because you can't answer the simple questions? It's pretty straight forward.

You're a pretty funny dude. UFO's? Big Foot? Um okayyy. Needless to say Amsoil would be the UFO/Big Foot in this case saying, hey I'm real, I'm here, test me...prove me wrong....so if that's not enough for you to comprehend, I feel sorry for you.

MinnBobber

Would it be correct to say the Magnuson-Moss Act prohibits MB from mandating a certain brand of oil BUT it is legal for MB to say you must use an oil that meets their specs and then have their list of all oils that meet their specs?

Then, if your engine blows and MB shows you were using a non-certif oil, no warranty for you.....

Thanks for any clarification on this.

Domm

You're right. I'm no expert in oil and I don't aspire to be one. I know nothing about oil so if MB provides me a neat list of which oils I can use, why bother using something else?

Apparently you've been proved wrong by an expert and if you still wish to use Amsoil, no one is stopping you.

RLE

Actually, I don't think anyone here gives a damn what kind of oil you use. You asked the question and I think you just don't like the answers because they are not in line with a decision you have already made.