Acapulco Bill

Maybe next year if the CLA45 AMG engine lives up to expectations, it will be a contender. Until then, for the second straight year, this fantastic Ford engine is the very "best".

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/f...ard-2013-06-06

Same 1.0L engine has one of the fastest Nurburgring "Green Hell" times of any street-legal vehicle. And some wonder why I like my Ford over my W204?

http://www.egmcartech.com/2012/09/06...nd-22-seconds/

Glyn M Ruck

Much of this has to do with the launch cycles of new engines & with a focus on economy the little Ford 999cc 3 cyl Ecoboost is a shoe in. Wonderful little engine although lacks oompf for the open road.

The last time Benz was successful was 2009 where three engines won their category by some margin.

Benz has many potentially winning designs that have yet to go into series production. Their innate conservatism sometimes counts against them. I wish the Diesotto would see the light of day.

Let's hope that the 2 litre >200Kw Turbo for the A45 is as good as they say it will be.

Acapulco Bill

One only wishes that the M271 1.8L i4 used in the C250 had an efficiency of performance on the level of the current BMW 2.0L used in the 328i. Realistically, 220 HP and 240 lb-ft torque could have been expected, if the M271 had the same level of "tune" as N20B20 BMW I4.

LILBENZ230

Are you in a position to unload your W204? It seems that it is a constant source of unhappiness for you. So much so that you seem to have some disdain for the entire Mercedes brand (evident from threads like this). I am FAR from a fanboy, as Glyn can attest to from my butting heads with fanboys for years on the W203 forum while I owned one of them. I am very much a realist. But I don't understand why you would hang on to a car that causes so much negativity for you.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be here or post or anything like that. If everyone who posted on MBWorld saw Mercedes through rose-colored glasses, it would certainly be a boring place. However, someone who hangs around to remind everyone how much Mercedes gets wrong is really no different than a fanboy that thinks they do everything right.

Glyn M Ruck

The M271 Evo Turbo is in a very soft state of tune for global durability. Once again Benz being conservative & they still have trouble in markets like China where fuel is crap. They will never lead the power stakes in standard engines.

The M271 is not my favourite Benz engine for one reason only. It needs a duplex timing chain.

LILBENZ230

I really loved the loaner C250 I had recently for almost a week. It was very spunky and made the car quite a bit more enjoyable than the C300. I thought I'd just pick one up in the future when I trade the C300, but I don't think I can ever own another M271 and worry about that.

Acapulco Bill

@LILBENZ230: I will keep this to 3 points each (hopefully).
Why I bought the 2010 C300 Sport with AMG trim -
1) Best looking by far in segment. Inside and out. Period.
2) Daimler Financial offered 20%, 0% interest 24 months, including extending warranty, LoJack and full coverage insurance. Prime here is 1% PER MONTH and BMW/Audi had 21% financing with 33% to 40% down.
3) Safest car not only in its class, but of nearly any with a low 24 deaths per million vehicles. Most sophisticated safety systems of any manufacturer.

Things I love to HATE:
1) 7G Tronic with Adaptive Learning sucks. A true safety issue, downshifting and accelerating for overtaking takes 2-3 seconds. (With erased Adaptive Learning memory, the 7G performs fantastically.)
2) Sport suspension height, springs, shocks and seat comfort are, frankly, torturous on local roads.
3) Cabin tech is shameful compared to a Hyundai. The stock speakers are crap. Still cant figure out the overhead lighting cluster, especially in the dark. Bluetooth and contacts should be Ford's simple "Yes", not two manual pages of procedures plus 6 individual steps to upload EACH contact.

What I still like about my W204
1) Best looking by far in segment. Inside and out. Period.
2) 3.0L W272 engine is sophisticated, smooth, torquey, reliable and very good MPG
3) MB dealer service, although 2 1/2 hours away @ 100+ MPH, is fabulous and actually costs less per mile than the Honda Accord. Ford still much better, still waiting for first B service after 9 years.

Why I still keep it:
1) Safety at high speeds under unpredictable driving conditions. Brakes excellent.
2) Reliability, plus only 3 A service in 3+ years, no manufacturing defects.
3) Can't afford to sell it, as I am now retired (or maybe just "tired"). If I could afford it, maybe the new 2013 E350 Sport, however still stuck with that lethargic 7G... Why bother? Besides when I really want to drive a nice comfortable, quiet, quality built car, I take the Ford.

spyked

Not sure why anyone would expect any MB engine awards. Hell, the M271 in my C250 is about 13 years old. Hardly cutting edge. Nor are their workhorse V6 engines any more cutting edge than the competition. But people buying MBs don't care about that stuff. As long as it's reliable and smooth, who cares? Let Ford (with their wonderful EcoBoost....oh wait...not so much) take the engine awards. One of these days Ford will make a CAR worthy of the engine. Last one they made that was truly exceptional was the Sierra/XR4Ti range. They've screwed the pooch by forcing PowerShift automatics and EcoBoost and MyFordTouch on the U.S. population.

I think MB should get a prize for being one of the only premium automakers left that designs and manufactures their own gearbox. For all the hate I read about the 7G, I just don't see it. Then again, I have the 7G Plus. It's no different than the ZF 8 speed in my 328i other than it's down a gear and only has two modes. Put the BMW in EcoPro and it drives just like Economy mode of the 7G Plus, only with harsher ride and more rattles.

spyked

Oh, and why does my M271 Evo need a "duplex timing chain" - actually what is that? Do all other cars with timing chains instead of timing belts have these "duplex" chains?

Anything the average owner like me should watch out for regarding tiiming chain in my M271 Evo?

Glyn M Ruck

The M271 uses a simplex or single gang timing chain which is prone to stretching which can lead to the chain jumping a few teeth on the cam sprockets resulting in bent valves or worse. A duplex or duel gang chain would not do this. If you ever hear a rattle at the front of the engine when starting that shuts up as soon as the oil pressure comes up it is advised to pull a new chain & fit a new tensioner before the condition above occurs. This normally only occurs at 100K plus miles but can happen earlier & is somewhat maintenance dependent.

Glyn M Ruck

Regarding the 722.9 7G transmission, Johnand, Matt, splinter, myself etc. have discussed many times on the W203 forum. The 7G requires a bit of a learning curve on behalf of the driver to get the most out of it. You need to drive more deliberately ~ if you want to dial in 30% throttle as an example then do that & leave the transmission to it's own devices. Never yo-yo the throttle or try to predict the transmission or you will make a mess of it. It is not kind to any form of erratic or clumsy driving. Do this & the two of you will get on much better. If you want a single or multi gear downchange then just shove the throttle a little harder & it will oblige. Once again no yo-yo'ing of the pedal. As the torque converter clutches remain in controlled slip semi locked mode almost universally other than when stationary for the sake of efficiency the vehicle will run against compression unlike old slush boxes. Any abrupt lift off of the throttle will give you close to full engine braking leading to less than smooth driving.

The new 722.9 Plus is one of the most efficient transmissions ever built & uses the lowest viscosity fluid in the industry to reduce churning losses. The 722.9 was also a highly efficient transmission for it's day.

fireline43

I have to say, the mercedes community is def not exciting. I really love my c250 over my 2009 bmw 335i also. But the community is def not as active or proud. A ford, really. Sounds like the OP needs a buick.
I drove a 2012 ford focus as a rental, it's a good car for the money, but I can definitly see why I pay more for the luxury brands over it. Better interior and quality. With non luxury brands, your either stuck going for comfort or full blown sport it seems. There is no balance like a luxury sport sedan.
I owned a 2005 ford mustang at one point also, so I have experience with ford. The car really sucked. Horrible interior, bad handling, and jumpy engine. My father owned fords also up until his 2008 ford f350.

Acapulco Bill

@fireline43: After owning 39 different vehicles, and having just sold an exotic V12 last week, which was used as a daily driver in the US, I am passionate about cars. The "Ford" you mention is, in terms of comfort, ergonomics, steering, interior materials, build quality, handling and reliability, a Belgian built Mondeo with a Porsche designed engine. Nothing to do with Ford's terrible US vehicles. Every time I sit my butt into the Ford and fire it up, I smile and am reminded how glad I am not to be in the torturously uncomfortable W204. Even the Mondeo's doors close more vault-like. No service required in over a year, even though its my daily driver.

Of course the W204 has its stellar points for sure such as safety and styling, But in the Sport version, comfort certainly isnt one of them, nor is high performance, although your testimony about the 2009 335i is telling, it wasnt one of BMW's best efforts. Too bad the Mondeo never made it to US shores, believe me it is more comfortable than this picture looks. Top Gear's "Car of the Year" twice, no other model has ever done that.

Glyn M Ruck

The Ford Mondeo in V6 form has always been a very fine & underated motor car and was of course the underpinning of the Jaguar X Type. I particularly like it in the latest version with the mini Aston grill but with the European packaging as a Mondeo. The US "Fusion" version of the car is less likeable. They had to fiddle with a good thing.

The Mondeo is a car that has always deserved to sell better than it does but it doesn't have the badge/brand strength.

Specifying a W204 with the Sport suspension does not make sense in countries with poor roads. The Elegance spring & damper rates are far better suited to this service.

Acapulco Bill

Thanks Glyn, and although very off point, do you know if a simple swap of Sport to Luxury shocks and springing s possible?

Question: Is the M270 2.0L i4 that will be installed in the CLA250 a newer or older design than the M271 in the current C250? And will the CLA45 AMG use the same M270 engine?

Glyn M Ruck

Yes it is a simple swap of springs & dampers (& maybe spring pads). Might cost a bit.

The M270/M274 engines are newer in development than the M271 platform. The M271 has moved from IDI & supercharging to DI & Turbo charging so it's seen considerable development however.

The new 2 litre AMG engine in the A45 is really a new engine right down to its sandcast cylinder block. Bore spacing etc would not allow the updating of older designs. I'm sure there is some old DNA somewhere in the design. Lets wait until we can examine the thing closely.

You are no doubt aware that "With a maximum output of 265 kW (360 hp) and up to 450 Newton metres of torque, the AMG 2.0-litre four-cylinder turbo engine is the most powerful series production four-cylinder engine in the world. The sensational power density of 133 kW (181 hp) outstrips even the most powerful super sports cars. At the same time, the engine also boasts supreme efficiency and complies with the EU6 emissions standard"

I have been told that Benz has 13 new Blue Efficiency engines under development. Obviously at least 2 of them (petrol & diesel) will be for the new sub compact "X" Class that will slot between the A Class & the Smart. That's all I know. Benz is seldom forthcoming with what it's doing unless they gain a marketing advantage from the announcement.

fireline43

It's amazing to me Bill that you don't find the mercedes comfortable. And that is really the selling point over a BMW. And to say that the twin turbo 335i wasn't one of BMW's stellar moments is tough also. It won a couple awards by itself.

The bmw was very uncomfortable, but very high performance. The mercedes is more comfortable and medium performance(real world public street performance). I test drove the audi a4 also when I was looking for a new car and if you complain about performance of the c class, try that with the CVT transmission. I get that you rave over the new fusion, alot of car reviews have. But you have to look at what the extra money for a c class gets you over it. For one the RWD over the FWD. I'm not racing, but i prefer handling of rwd over fwd. I did look at the fusion when I was car shopping and was looking at the titanium model. The dealer had it priced around 33k and wouldn't budge much on that. I got my pretty loaded c250 for 39k. I for one feel that 6k made a big difference. Not having to deal with ford sync is a plus and I also didn't feel the fusion has very much of a sporty feel. It is comfortable, and that is what it seems you are looking for. Like I've said before, I'm not much of a ford lover either. My american love died with pontiac.

I would never argue american car service though. I owned lot's of them up until I got the german bug. I get that the fusion is based on a german car also, but it's still a big difference. The buick regal is based off the opel and there's a difference there. I was looking into the buick regal GS also. But FWD and about the same price as the c class. It has 270 hp but it's weight and setup make it slower then the 200 hp c250.

It was a long post, but I wanted to explain why I like the c-class. Also when I was car shopping, I looked at the 2013 jetta GLI. This is a great comparison for lower model and higher model german. The GLI was very sporty and 200 hp engine was the highest. The cclass pretty much starts where the gli leaves off and uses nicer materials and ergonomics. i think these american-german built cars are a *******ized version of what a real german car is. How else can they explain why they are cheaper?

Also have you drove a vw passat? I think that's a better comparision for the ford fusion.

fireline43

The CLA seems to be laughed at among BMW supporters. Just look at this thread from a bmw forum.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=cla

LILBENZ230

Points taken.

To speak about some of the other things brought up in the thread:

1) Ford's Microsoft MFT is an absolute deal breaker. What a nightmare.
2) I have a C300 Sport with the 18" AMG rims and it is not particularly comfortable, though not particularly uncomfortable either. The ride is better than my 2005 C230K Sport, but the seats in that 2005 were MUCH better.
3) I don't find the 7G to perform that badly, though we've talked about that before. I've had an issue of it being confused a time or two, but certainly not life threatening in my neck of the woods. Annoying, yes.. but again it is very infrequent. As Glyn said, I have learned to drive a Mercedes in a very "deliberate" fashion.

Glyn M Ruck

BMW supporters will always have a go at Benz. They are welcome to their short life troublesome vehicles. Not a single performance BMW has got through our local Car magazine's standard testing regime without a failure of some sort in the last 10 years.

Their standard models don't make old bones well & their performance models are fragile. People must buy what they wish & live with the consequences. A Benz will do far higher mileage than an equivalent BMW. You either like the Benz values or you don't. That is everyones prerogative.

My Benz vehicles have always put a smile on my face every time I drive them. None have ever given any trouble. My CLK only has 17K miles on the clock but seems headed for my typical Benz experience. Only possible concern is the rate at which I wear rear tyres but that is my fault for enthusiastic driving. My previous little V6 W203 had 2 X caster bushes replaced under warantee (known problem & redesigned), one tranny plug washer due to a very slight fluid weep & a replacement RHS stop lamp bulb over 8 years of ownership. I can't complain.

I always spec my vehicles close to full house and always in Elegance form because it suits my driving conditions & taste.

I look forward to driving the CLA 45.

FraKctured

I had a C300 as a loaner for 5 weeks, and when I got my W203 back, it felt like I was back in a Mercedes (in terms of the ride). I understand MB is going for the BMW 3-series drive with this C-class, but it's a mistake. It's just not a lux ride. Much too big of a compromise in my opinion, but I'm not a 20-something driver, so maybe this makes sense from a marketing angle.

fireline43

Well said. Like I've said many times, I had my experience with bmw and learned. My family all owns mercedes ranging through the years and they all love them. I was very skeptical at first also with the stigma that bmw drivers give you about benz, but like you said, if you appreciate the value, they are amazing cars.
I think the setup of a benz is well suited for daily driving. I'm still confused at people saying it's not a comfortable ride though? It's more comfortable then my wifes vw tiguan and my fathers gmc sierra.

Glyn M Ruck

You mentioned the Passat. Let me say from the outset that I have never been a great VW lover ~ But ~ the new Golf 7 MQB component platform is so well sorted that it will put many luxury brands roadholding & comfort to shame.

fireline43

Yea im not a super vw fan, but I do like the gli and the new Passat. Feel well built for the price tag. I hate vw interiors though.

Sportstick

The new Automobile magazine review of the new GTI is very impressive. I must admit, I haven't had VW rolling around in my head as a candidate, but a GTI or MQB-based GLI off the eventual Jetta sedan seem like they must be considered for those of us seeking fun-to-drive as a price of entry attribute. Yes, fwd, but it seems they have it quite well designed and controlled.