Bleser

Hello!

I’ll be in the market to buy my next car in late 2014 or early 2015. I don’t buy cars new, so what is in showrooms now is what I’ll be considering. I typically buy one-year old cars with under 10K on them and I’ll go to any corner of the country to find the right configuration and condition.

I’m interested in a few different cars but my current #1 pick by far is the current W204 C-Class. I absolutely love the straight/chiseled exterior design, flared wheel arches and overall shape/proportions. I also love that it is available in true red (not maroon or wine-red) and the Sport Package with red stitching and Alcantara is sweet.

However, I’m wavering daily about powertrain choice. One day I’ll think the light & frugal RWD C250 is best, then I’ll consider the linear power, sound and traction of the C300 4Matic is best.

I’d be buying a 2014, so the C300 would be the 3.5L version.

Basically, I’m looking for owners of each to comment on why they chose the one they did and if they test drove the other and if there were decision points beyond cost that drove the decision.

My current thoughts:

C250
+ Lightest C-Class available; should be good for handling an nimbleness
+ RWD platform is the most fun
+ Staggered wheel setup from the factory
+ Lowest cost and highest MPG rating
- 4-cylinder "sound" on startup and the whole "4-banger" mentality
- Single exhaust (minor cosmetic thing but I would greatly prefer dual)
- Will have to switch to winter tires since I live in the snow-belt region; could negate any MPG cost benefits by having to run two sets of tires
- Turbocharged engine – weak power on hot days sitting in traffic and non-linear power delivery

C300 AWD
+ Great V6 sound on startup, acceleration, etc, contributing to the "premium" feel
+ AWD traction and highly-regarded M-B AWD system
+ Dual exhaust setup
+ Likely higher resale value and greater long-term reliability
+ Most likely easier to find one with desired options
+ Linear power delivery and not as sensitive to hot temperatures
- Heaviest C-Class available
- Likely not much faster (if at all) vs C250
- Lowest MPG rating
- AWD system complexity could increase maintenance costs and suspension upgrades (not sure)

Please reply with any/all comments in this area. Thanks!

Oh, and BTW, here is my current car, a 2008 VW Passat VR6 with some OEM+ modifications:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adambleser/9285447918/http://www.flickr.com/photos/adambleser/9285447918/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/adambleser/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adambleser/9285454636/http://www.flickr.com/photos/adambleser/9285454636/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/adambleser/, on Flickr

JaredP

Buy a C300, kleemann tune it to 330hp. You will certainly be faster than a C250. Also, the DI V6 has a diesel-chatter like sound to it, you might want to listen to one before hand. 4matic is pretty great too, awesome to have in snow.

spyked

Don't know if this will help. I chose the C250 over the C300 for financial and reliability reasons.

- the M271 engine has been around forever, and it's latest update, M271 Evo, is a sweet little thing! Very smooth, good mpgs, and great torque from such a small displacement. I like that the engine is "old" - I don't like beta testing new engines (and the 3.5 has not been flawless so far at all).

- I don't need AWD.

- I see too many reports of EXPENSIVE transmission replacements on 4MATIC cars.

- The 6 cylinder isn't an I6, it's a V. Like in a Camry or Ford. Great engines for sure, but hardly groundbreaking or exotic. It's all about feel and mindset I guess.

My concerns with the C250 are two:

- the DI systems MB uses in the U.S. Do they account for our crappy fuel? Time will tell. I don't look forward to dealing with carbon deposits on intakes.

- No one seems to have any idea about the updated 7G Tronic Plus transmission in terms of fluid capacity (U.S. C250's are weird, we have the new transmission, but WITHOUT stop/start system), fluid change instructions/directions, and if the new extended 70k change intervals are to be believed (the "regular" 7G Tronic is 39k miles).



Good luck!

CraigRichard

I live in the mountains of BC and when it snows it dumps! A good set of winters and I can go anywhere with my 4matic in sumptuous comfort. If you dont worry about weather then a RWD is the dynamically the best drive you can get.

MDMercedesGuy

Not really sure where the "4 banger startup sound or 4 banger mentality" come into play.

It sounds like any other car at startup. The intake growl and turbo hiss is intoxicating, and the exhaust note is nice when accelerating. There is no mentality either - the power delivery can be peaky at times, but it pulls like a V6 when spooled. When not, it can easily pull 32MPG highway at 75+ MPH.

The new 3.5 is nice, but I'll take the known track record of the M271 and lack of stop/start any day over a V6.

Bleser

Really appreciate the responses. This is the kind of info I'm looking for.

I'll provide a bit more background with my hesitation on the 1.8T:
- I drive a 3.6L DI VR6 engine now, and love the sound and linear power. So, I fear regretting not going with this similar setup again.
- I've owned a 1.8T before (albeit about ten years ago), and remember how much I hated the surgy power delivery and heat-soaked IC in the summer months. This was a VW with a manual (Passat GLS), so I think the turbo lag was far more evident than with an automatic transmission that the M-B has.

Interesting stuff! Good to know this isn't a new engine. I was thinking of a 2014 model year to get the "newest" version, but maybe that doesn't matter. Also, the 3.5 is basically new, so that is a good point long-term.

What are your thoughts on the transmission? When you say 7G Tronic Plus - how is this different from the 7G Tronic, and what are the differences? I've read some car magazines state that it is "slow to respond" and "needs an update", while other say it is fast and smooth.

Yes, I'm on the fence with this. I tell all my friends to not waste their time with AWD as where I live you only "need it" 3-5 times a year... the rest of the time, RWD is fine. I think with the right tires, RWD is good, unless the snow gets too deep.

Great feedback, thank you. I think it is just the mental hesitation of knowing I "could have gotten a V6" but chose the 1.8T engine based on what I have now. However, the world is going to turbo-4s, and there is nothing bad about that. I do enjoy looking down at the trip computer and achieving high MPG, probably more than I do racing up an on-ramp, but I like that, too. It seems there are decent tunes offered (JBTune I think?) to bring the HP and torque up even higher. But, with 0-60 in the ~6.8 second range stock, not sure it is worth it or needed.

Again, thanks for the feedback. Looking forward to more opinions either direction.

Carsy

Practically, in my mind , it boils down to the % of the time you will experience snow ?.

Carrying around extra transfer case ,diff etc for a short period is not efficient or practical.

Buy a car with 4 wheels the same size so you can rotate the tyres & achieve better mileage. Absolute madness having different sizes in the hope the car looks better.

Why not look at a diesel MB ? Enormous torque, economy & drivability.

Bleser

You bring up a couple good points here. The first point goes towards the idea that I would only "need" AWD a few times a year, which hardly makes sense. The second point, though, counts against the RWD car, as the sport models come with a staggered setup from the factory. Is that a correct assumption? I assume you don't have to continue to be staggered as long as the OD of all four wheels remains the same.

spyked

The 7G Tronic was last offered in the 2012 4MATIC (old Chrysler-era V6). All 2013+ models have Tronic Plus. V6 models have start/stop, C250 does not have start/stop.

The 7G Plus is a HUGE update in fluid, software, and hardware. http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/...us/detail.html

I like it a lot. It's not as fast as the new BMW 8 speed, but it's definitely good. In Economy mode, it's chasing MPGs. But what is really nice is Sport mode. It's the only Sport mode I've driven that makes shifts faster and more crisp, downshifts sooner, yet DOES NOT lock you out of the top gears.

My car was built in June 2012 (2013 MY) and it was due for a ECU/TCU software update. Had it done, things are just a bit more crisp.

You should definitely test drive if you are not familiar with Mercedes Benz. The biggest difference to me between all my VWs and Audis compared to MB is throttle response. The MB is calibrated for high speed and smooth running. It will start in 2nd gear unless you give it the boot. Or put it in Sport mode (default at start up is Econ). The VWs go "fast" before you step on the gas pedal...whereas the Benz won't do anything you don't tell it to do. It's a very deliberate car.

spyked

Oh, and OP, I see your Passat. Nice. I had an old VR6 12v in an MKIV - fun engines. Your updated version has what, almost first gen DI? If that hasn't caused you issues like many of the other older FSI engines, then you've got nothing to worry about with MB DI.

Bleser

@spyked,

Thanks for this kind of information and level of detail. Interesting stuff.

If the transmission moved to 7GTronic Plus in 2013, much of what I have been reading might be regarding the older 7GTronic transmission.

Where is it cited on how to tell if a C-Class has the 7GTronic Plus vs. the older design? Just curious. Also curious why the C250 didn't get start/stop (not that I want i!).

One of the main things I want in my next purchase is a more modern/faster transmission, so this is great news on that front. The C250 is sounding like the better bet between the two. Great performance, proven reliability, good transmission, lighter weight, and more frugal. It seems tuning options are available too. Can't wait to test drive one.

One of my primary feature requirements will be the Lighting Package; seems to be a very rare option and will limit my options, but so be it. The automatic high-beam feature seems very cool, and I have the swiveling bi-xenon headlights now so I know I'd miss that if I didn't get it.

Any other thoughts from anyone?

Sportstick

Agree completely with challenging the need for AWD and the negative cost:benefit analysis. With proper tires, such as the Blizzak WS60s I use, my rear wheel drive C300 does very well in Michigan winters. I would not buy AWD next time in these same circumstances.

Bleser

Yeah, this alone makes me wonder why I would choose the car that weighs 300 lbs. more... that is a huge difference (part drive-train, part engine).

(3,428 lbs. vs. 3,726 lbs.)

spyked

Assuming you are buying U.S. spec'd cars, the W204 has a 7G Tronic Plus if it's a C250 (not the V6 from Canada, but the 4 cylinder turbo), period. The only V6 models with 7G Plus are the NEW series of V6 (3.5 liter in the C300 or C350, M276 I think?). Anything with the older M272 is 7G Tronic (non-Plus).

As far as why the C250 doesn't have stop/start, I don't know, but I'd guess that it's because of at least two reasons.

1. It's already good on gas and helping their CAFE numbers.
2. It's the cheaper car in terms of MSRP, might not be worth putting in a new technology and then either increasing price or eating the cost.

The M271 turbo CGI models have been running in Europe since the Stone Age (or the last few years) - not sure if they have stop/start either.

I personally don't want stop/start, so I'm glad the C250 didn't have it. It will be standard on the W205 just as it is on the CLA250.

MDMercedesGuy

I'm in a 2013 C300 today while my dealership tries yet again to sort out the issues with my backup camera (this makes the 3rd time...).

Power-wise, it doesn't feel much different than my 250 around town - if anything it feels a bit lazier due to the torque not coming until higher RPM. The biggest difference I can feel is at the top of the rev range - the 250 starts to taper off some, and the 300 pulls hard to redline. The 250 is more of a mid-range runner than anything else.

That said, I have put about 12 miles on this thing and the start/stop makes me want to burn it to the ground. It is far too quick to shut off when you come to a stop, and it has to immediately restart if you creep forward - say when making a left hand turn across several lanes and you keep getting blocked by people across from you. When it does shut down/restart you can feel it jerk slightly. It makes you want to roll stop signs to keep the damn thing running (I know you can turn it off with a button but that isn't the point).

I've experienced the MB Stop/Start in the E250 BlueTec and GLK350 as well - it seems to be better implemented there. It's a hell of a lot smoother with the diesel, and the GLK seems more isolated. It's definitely a disappointment that it seems to not be consistent across the product lines - it makes me wonder how the cheaper CLA feels with it.

Bleser

Yes, the idea of stop/start makes me cringe. No matter how much a manufacturer claims it is "seemless" and "automatic", I just can't imagine living with it to save 1 or 2 mpg around town. This, to me, is where things that feel like hacks are being thrown at the cars to help meet regulations. But, I'm also not a mechanical engineer (just a computer engineer ).

The CLA250 is rated super-high in MPG; something like 38 MPG highway and 30 MPG combined. But, the thing just looks like a lentil IMHO, whereas the W204 looks like a timeless M-B.

Excited to test-drive the C250. I think mid-range power is what matters more; this is where you need power to goose-it and pass on a two-lane road, keep speed while highway crusing on a steep grade, and so-on.

Anyone with a C250 tune that can chime in? Not that I'd "chip it" right away, but for ~$250 it seems like a good upgrade.

JaredP

If you're even considering "tuning" your car, you'll want the C300. The m271 can just not compare to a full potential M276 in the C300 and C350. You'll get 320+ horsepower. That's more than a C350 from a tuned C300.
It also seems like people here really go out of their way to try and hate start/stop. I would honestly have to try to notice it, and I'm sure it's not nearly as bad as the turbo "surge" problem with the 250s.

MDMercedesGuy

Hah, computer engineer here as well.

My 250 has no issue pulling 31+ MPG out on the highway at real world speeds of 70+ MPH. The attached pic is from last week - pardon the horrible quality. It runs about 24MPG combined for me - and I swing wildly from spending days where the tach never goes over 3K RPM and days where it gets wailed on. My C250 isn't tuned, so I can't really comment there, though.

I will say this:
It has more than enough power out on the highway/when merging. At times it can feel "out of breath" if it is screaming away at the top of the rev range, but once it shifts it immediately falls right into the powerband. This is somewhere around 80MPH IIRC - so it is usually on higher speed passes and such. It's a nice kick right when you need it.

MDMercedesGuy

You've gotta be kidding me. This thing clunks on and off if you are stuck in creeping traffic. It's unrefined and annoying.

What "surge" problem are you talking about with the 250? Do you mean turbo lag?

Have you driven both of them, or are you going by what people are posting on the forums?

He's talking about a $250 mod to the car to add a few horsepower/torque... not God knows what to add 80 horsepower (and still be saddled with unneeded AWD).

JaredP

The turbo surge problem was reported in a pretty big thread in the forums, I've never driven a C250, maybe it was never an actual issue.

However, I've never had a problem with start/stop in slow, creeping traffic. The system turns itself off if I stop more than once in a small time period. After that, it won't turn on again until I've reached a certain speed. It is certainly a refined system.

JaredP

Read this thread. It's a bench flash ECU tune. The M276 is in both the C300, and C350, but detuned at the factory in the C300.

MDMercedesGuy

The power delivery is not as linear as the V6, but it's predictable. I wouldn't call it a surge so much as a wave of torque that hits you when it spools - but it is manageable.
This one will stop/start at least 4 times before it turns itself off - it just did it to me a while ago driving back to my office. There is a noticeable shudder through the pedals and wheel each time it does it. Granted it is a loaner with 6,000 miles on the clock - but still not what I expected (or have experienced in other MB implementations).

JaredP

Maybe it's old software or something, but everytime I've had someone in my car, I've had to tell them that my engine is off and open the window for them to believe me at a red light.

spyked

I think maybe the word "surge" is not quite right in this context if it's being used in a negative way. Since when is a surge of power when you step on the gas a bad thing in a car? A power surge in your home or office - bad. A surge of power from a fun turbo - definitely a good thing.

These C250s aren't WILD like old turbo SAABs (they don't get away from you), but they do still give you that dual personality aspect if you request it. Sedate motoring or turbo spooling fun. But at least it has personality. I just don't get excited over V6 motors. Can be extremely fast and very smooth, of course. But where's the fun?? Of course, everyone is different.

Either way, if OP gets a W204, he's getting a great car with an excellent pedigree and, even at the end of it's cycle, gives up NOTHING to the competition.

Bleser

The "surge" you guys refer to reminds me of my 1.8T in my 2003 Passat, but again that was a manual with a heavy flywheel and really what bothered me about it was shift timing; with the 7GTronic Plus I think that will all be masked, and I have to think the more modern ECU programming and tuning will help as well considering it is becoming weird if your new car doesn't have a turbo.

As @spyked pointed out, I don't think either is a bad choice, but I'm drawn (today ) to the lighter weight/RWD/better MPG version of the W204 at this point. Again, I think I need to drive the C250 and C300 back-to-back. Whatever my 'gut' tells me at that point will really help.

I do like that M-B doesn't really limit options between the two; basically everything you can get on the C300 you can get on the C250, just a bit cheaper overall. Well, except for factory dual exhaust.