Mark's M

Interesting comment. It's in both of my current cars. Suits the GLK because we truck the dogs, tow the boat, beach it, etc so there's no worries. My car, different story. I have had leather in just about every vehicle I've owned and love it. There were absolutely no 350's in Canada with leather when I bought it and my dealer convinced me to take one with Artico rather than waiting for an order car, said I'd be more than happy. I hate it. It wears well, looks good and everyone who sits in it tells me how nice "the leather feels". But it smells like nothing and I hate it. Doesn't change colour though, or ooze slime, so that's a good thing.

coladin

My wife's 2012R350 had beige artico and it showed the dirt very easily, compared to our previous 2009 R class, even though they were the same colour. The first one, though, stained from the kids wet snowsuits, pink haha, and I couldn't get it off! Overall they were decent but if I have the chance of getting leather, I usually get it. My 2011 C63 was Sahara beige leather and wore extremely well, even with that colour.


My C400 has leather and it is very nice, not quite like my 507's, but the best leather seats are onn my E wagon, the Nappa upgrade, absolutely beautiful.

HelenR

No disrespect taken. How do we break through the front layer?

We are the ones on this forum who like the car. We want to buy one. We're willing to pay for it. We are the one passionate enough to talk about it, try and fix it, instead of just going to another brand.

Glyn M Ruck

Experience on this forum has been: The dealer carries part of the warranty so you generally need them on side. A meeting with dealer and factory technical representative usually brings swift results. Or, phoning Benz & insisting on speaking to a technical person. Not the front line ladies. They have proven a disaster on issues like getting dealers to service the 722.9 transmission properly & change the torque converter fluid which carries about half the fluid charge ~ 4 litres. We have found many dealers violating the WIS & doing a half job on a US$10,000 transmission. Many threads on the W204 & W209 forums in this regard.

In Stans's case this is not an issue peculiar to one car. Benz knows they have a mess on their hands. His issue has been escalated beyond the front line.

HelenR

Thanks, great advice!

I think Stan's issues (not just the seats) and others reported here are just a symptom of a much larger disease.....POOR oversight and QC, and as yet, no information how they will salvage the 2015 model year here.

(And please ladies and gentlemen don't scold me here or in private messages if you think I am making a bigger deal of this than we all should. If you feel this is all normal warranty work and shouldn't be blown out of proportion, maybe Stan will sell you his at sticker price and get another one this weekend and not spend more of his valuable time trying to fix MBUSAs QC issues...any takers?)

Sportstick

No scolding deserved! You have the right to be severely disappointed. What I had hoped to convey earlier is that you are heading into a "Perfect Storm".....new model in a new plant (for C Class) with a new supply base...a triple header. For any manufacturer, the most amazing part would be those early volume production cars which come off the line in great shape.

The typical pattern over a product cycle is:

1st year: Achieve launch volume and find out what to fix
2nd year: Implement largest number of fixes and achieve stable production
3rd year: Identify/implement content cost savings as incognito as possible
4th year to end of product cycle: Continue material cost reductions/complexity&build combination reductions/quality improvements.
Last year: Achieve highest quality point, package content for value for model close-out.

floridadriver

You're a wealth of info on this from your life history. I've experienced the cost cutting piece first hand as years roll on which seems almost as fast as them discovering things breaking about year 3 or so.

Any chance that they'll implement meaningful factory oversight changes, not just figuring out what to fix? Some of this is just sloppy factory/supplier workmanship and inspections, not design issues.

Any mid-year cycle changes possible?

With Rear wheel drive model, will it be further behind the power curve than 4matic, or is that minor manufacturing difference and not really a new model?

Thanks!

Mark's M

Question Bimmer Boy...lol, kidding, love your 228 in the other forums....what us plebs without auto manufacturing insight want to know is during that first year, are they simply identifying or are they starting to fix? Your breakdown is obviously simplified but they can't possibly let everything go to hell in the first year and literally wait for the 2016 MY production to start the fixes...or can they?

Elsewhere amongst these "issues" threads we've discussed the difference between gremlin-type issues that'll pop up later vs in-your-face QC issues like ill-fitting panels. The former take longer to ferret out but the latter...how long do they take to remedy? Actually, let's take either the ill-fitting gas flaps or the rear bumper issue as an example. Both line issues, correct me if I'm wrong. What's the trigger that will bend the ear of the plant (issue recognition) and from that point, how is the fix put into motion...and when?

Hope I'm not overwhelming you but I think everyone here would appreciate it!

And by the time I pressed submit I see that FloridaDriver is sort of asking the same type of question. Yesterday the two of us discussed the obvious lack of an effective, positive organizational culture being in place at Alabama which would likely promote employee pride in their work and maybe address some of these QC concerns. Is this a dynamic typical of the industry?

Sportstick

It is really challenging to assess the root cause of each issue without first-hand data. Seemingly simple issues may have a variety of causes, such as a misfit fascia occurring due to the anything from a material change by the fascia supplier, to a deviation in the attachment hardware, to a problem in the body shop at the plant resulting in the body-in-white exerting pressure at an unexpected point on the part, etc. It may be that a part as designed is running into volume production issues at the part supplier before it ever reaches the plant. This could relate to engineering having misjudged the material spec of a released part. I can recall an entire lot of vehicles with body side moldings curling and dropping off the vehicle sides. An error in spec'ing an adhesive was the root cause. Some of the oddest things can happen when thousands of parts come together. But the old plant saying when something goes wrong is, "Most likely, we didn't build just one."

As to factory oversight changes, the plant layout and processes were designed years ago and would be a huge investment to alter, if it were even part of the current issue. Certainly, managers can come and go, and sometimes, this is little more than symbolic. This may be a matter of launch quality with the supply base, coupled with inadequate quality audit post-assembly. The actual plant operation from body framing to trim/chassis/final may be working as intended, but hampered with off-spec materials which are nevertheless getting through and vehicles are being shipped. So, to know what to improve, again, one must know exactly the root cause of the issue.

This need for complete understanding is the reason why the fixes are often not immediate. However, there is a phase at assembly plants with new programs called "Containment", where the first V1 (volume production) vehicles are supposed to undergo rigorous examination. Only if they meet the standards is "containment" lifted, and are vehicles deemed ready to ship. It may be that those first vehicles were "massaged" and volume production behind it did not maintain the same levels and the plant did not adequately audit and stop ship.

One thing about which I am becoming increasingly confident. This launch will alter career plans for certain employees. Some Engineering, Manufacturing, and Procurement&Supply heads may be at risk, and some Resident Engineers at the plant who successfully solve problems may become heroes. These people and others are likely working 24/7 to identify causes and move as rapidly as possible with corrective action. If you were able to monitor incoming air traffic from Germany to the Vance area (what airport?), I would bet that an unusual number of German design and manufacturing engineers were inbound. But, with only 4-5 months left in the model year, most likely many actions will be V1 16MY.

As to rear wheel drive models, once the plant is facilitized for a certain number and mix of powertrain configurations, it usually doesn't care about the launch sequence as long as they are not at the same time! The powertrain module installation process is designed to be as similar as possible, although the components in the module are clearly different to exclude the front drive portion. There will be a unique wiring harness, but that is just the operator grabbing part "B" instead of part "A" on the line display. Most of the work for an alternative drive configuration was in engineering; manufacturing launch should be a relatively smaller challenge, assuming the configuration is released and certified.

I am not at all impugning MB. I deeply respect the products and company and my wife remains deeply in car-love with hers. We have had several MBs and most have been of excellent quality. Any new vehicle program leading to assembly is probably the most complex undertaking I've ever seen, beyond what I could have imagined before I started my career, and I've often told my family that I cannot fully explain to them what I've seen without them also being there. It is a wondrous thing when 3-4 years of thousands of people's work comes together, someone turns a key at the end of the line, and the damn thing starts! I'm not excusing failures, but I sure can relate and understand how and why they can happen. My mantra for any purchase is always "Year 2!"

Best wishes and good luck to all buyers....

PeteInGilroy

Wow, I imagine some heads will roll when the car carrier returns 3 of 5 cars to the factory. I never knew that was even an option. I would think that would send a very strong message to the factory...maybe more so than this website.

Sportstick

Ah....you are following me! LOL!

Yes, in response to FloridaDriver, I just wrote a short book, which should be posted just above. However let's take your example of the fuel filler door.

We would need to know:

1) Is the rear-quarter panel surface to spec or is the radius or punchout stamping off?
2) Is the punchout properly positioned in the die for the quarter?
3) Is the door hinge properly dimensioned
4) Is the door hinge properly mounted
5) Was the material spec for the door changed by the supplier and it reacted differently in the mold
6) Was a second fuel filler tool produced to anticipate volume and it was presumed to match the first tool but doesn't, so some fit and some don't.

So, let's assume every car comes offline with this same fuel filler door condition. Let's also assume it was noticed in audit and flagged as a non-conformance. Someone needs to make the ship/stop-ship decision. That's the kind of decision which gets elevated very quickly as the $$$ implications are major. Do you not ship a whole car for the sake of the fuel door? Those individual decisions pile up as go/no-go factors.

This is just top-of-mind armchair quarterbacking, but it gives a feeling of the kinds of investigations for just this one issue. Fixes are not intentionally delayed if deemed critical, but must be correctly diagnosed first. Sometimes, changes which affect vehicle certification and deemed minor may be bundled for implementation the following year so the current year production doesn't require re-certification. I'm not defending that, but it is a judgement call on cost vs. benefit sometimes.

As to what applies pressure? Follow the money. The more fascias (expensive!) they need to replace for fit, the more urgent and more likely the item becomes a level "A" (HOT!) issue, which means something else gets less immediate attention, as resources ultimately are not unlimited.

As I said earlier, I do believe you can trust they are working as fast as they can on identified issues. They don't want this all to come back as warranty any longer than they can avoid.

PeteInGilroy

Sportstick...Wow, your knowledge of the industry is amazing and even more impressive is your ability to put it in words. All of us are lucky to have a member of your caliber.

Mark's M

As above. Sportstick....brilliant. Your explanations in both posts answered a heck of a lot. Who'd of thought a fuel filler door could go wrong for so many reasons. I've been fascinated by the auto industry all of my life, done a few factory tours here and in Europe but I can lap your kind of info all day....puts the other stuff into better perspective.

Thank-you.

Glyn M Ruck

I'm delighted we have Sportstick contributing his extensive knowledge to the forum without Eilers endlessly confronting him.

ddeliber

Absolutely awesome stuff!! This goes to show a small snippet of how many things need to work in conjunction with one another for a seemingly minor component like a fuel door.

Now I am not a manufacturing engineer with years of experience in the automotive industry, but I am an experienced engineer and I can attest to the complexity involved in making changes after production has started on pretty much anything more complex than a dog's chew toy. Many people would be astounded as to how a small change in one area can affect seemingly totally unrelated pieces of the overall puzzle. Solving issues the right way and the first time usually takes more time than on would expect.

Many people have rightfully expressed displeasure on fit and finish areas like the fuel door and the rear bumper. We can only speculate as to the cause or the fix, but I can state with a reasonable level of certainty that the issues are not related to a person incorrectly attaching a part and a QC guy not seeing it. In the case of the bumper, I highly doubt that a person is even involved with the process of attaching it to the car. Just imagine how long it would take for a guy to try to line things up, not to mention the lack of precision in the human eye. There is a machine that puts it on and there is QC built in to the process where it is measuring the gaps while every screw is being tightened.

Now I am not trying to justify the issues, something is broken and it needs to get fixed. If Chevy and Hyundai can do it I am sure that Mercedes can as well, and with their margins they should be able to do it better. It is just not as easy as finding a person and "re-training" him/her. The truth is we will never know the cause or even the fix for these types of issues.

To me, it is fun to speculate, just think about some of Sportstick's points. Lets say the material is slightly out of spec for a clip or bracket that holds the thin part of the bumper between the tail light and the trunk in place. When the bumper is attached, everything lines up perfectly, but then 3 hours later, at the end of the line the temperature changes because the car is moved outside. As a result in 22.5% of the cars the now stiffer bumper slides 3mm down on the stiffer and more slippery cold clip. Now of course, this is not what is really happening, in fact it is pretty far fetched. However, if this or something similar were in fact involved, imagine how long it would take to find the root cause.

Capt Slo

What I was getting at is that MB-Tex has always nailed the "leather look", it also wears well. Mercedes would have made my decision easier to step up to the leather option if the Tex didn't have such a nice look and feel...I just didn't see the value in spending the extra money in this case. My issue with the interior pales in comparison to Stan and if it weren't for being a member of this board I'd probably never even give the occasional residue sepage a second thought.

jkyriakou

Not to mention that the issue would be more prolific around the world rather than just one plant? Most parts sitting inside the car are manufactured and delivered globally so the Bosch injection system in an Alabams plant would be the same injection system in the SA plant or Bremen, no?

I understand the local supplier thing, even ford and Toyota do it here in Aus however the parts they procure from the likes of Bosch and Delphi auto systems are not necessarily manufactured in Aus.

Again this is only layperson thinking so if I'm wrong please correct me.

Glyn M Ruck

Benz states level of local content on the door jam sticker for plant location.

jkyriakou

Cool. So how much is that on US builds?

I would hazard a guess that workmanship may play a bigger part here than parts for build quality and that's a harder thing to correct in a plant than product specification.

Glyn M Ruck

On the 4 Cylinder models I would expect it to be >50%