Thus the last sentence of the post. Last time it caused a dust up, but I want even more fur flying this time! Discuss.
Can a modded NA C55 match the C63 in acceleration?
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From: Northern Virginia
2006 C55 AMG, 2.8L Quattro, Softail Nostalgia 1550 (Stage III), Sporster (slammed)
Can a modded NA C55 match the C63 in acceleration?
This ought to start some schit! I like (no, make that love) everything about my C55 but the new 6.2L engine specs in the C63 are really getting me off too. I am a big fan of torque (and drag racing). So, while I am not about to jump up and order a C63, I would like to do a little arm-chair/mag racing and ponder how hard it would be (or even possible) to mod a C55 to keep up with a stock C63 in straight line performance without forced induction? The new front geometry and suspension tricks and smarter 7-speed tranny on the C63 would be hard to match around a circuit.
But here’s my proposal: take a stock C55 and add the Renntech Stage II kit and then reduce the car’s weight by 110 lbs. With their PACKAGE 2 (CF airbox, SS headers, and ECU upgrade, $8K) you can reasonably make around 405 HP and 425 TQ at the crank (I am told, no experience though). Probably a little more with some octane booster. With a 110 pound drop in curb weight (pretty easy to do, delete resonator, switch to racing battery, remove spare, etc and go from 3450 lbs to 3340 lbs) the C55 would be at about 8.2 lbs/hp power-to-weight ratio (3340 lbs / 405 hp). Not to shabby.
If you look at the specs on the new car you read that it comes with 451 HP and 443 TQ or basically a pretty freakin amazing stock C63 power-to-weight ratio of 8.4 lbs/hp (3820 lbs / 451hp). But it’s still a pretty hefty car based on the new W204 platform when compared to the W203s. It seems like it would be pretty possible to at least match the new C63 in this regard. Now there is still an 18 lb-ft deficit to get over but the 480 lbs difference in weight would nullify all of that (and then some). Even more significant is the new AMG tweaked 7G-Tronic vs the old SpeedShift 5-speed in the C55. If they are pretty matched power-wise do you still give the edge to the C63 because of the better tranny? Is this (like my last challenge) a lost cause? Discuss.
But here’s my proposal: take a stock C55 and add the Renntech Stage II kit and then reduce the car’s weight by 110 lbs. With their PACKAGE 2 (CF airbox, SS headers, and ECU upgrade, $8K) you can reasonably make around 405 HP and 425 TQ at the crank (I am told, no experience though). Probably a little more with some octane booster. With a 110 pound drop in curb weight (pretty easy to do, delete resonator, switch to racing battery, remove spare, etc and go from 3450 lbs to 3340 lbs) the C55 would be at about 8.2 lbs/hp power-to-weight ratio (3340 lbs / 405 hp). Not to shabby.
If you look at the specs on the new car you read that it comes with 451 HP and 443 TQ or basically a pretty freakin amazing stock C63 power-to-weight ratio of 8.4 lbs/hp (3820 lbs / 451hp). But it’s still a pretty hefty car based on the new W204 platform when compared to the W203s. It seems like it would be pretty possible to at least match the new C63 in this regard. Now there is still an 18 lb-ft deficit to get over but the 480 lbs difference in weight would nullify all of that (and then some). Even more significant is the new AMG tweaked 7G-Tronic vs the old SpeedShift 5-speed in the C55. If they are pretty matched power-wise do you still give the edge to the C63 because of the better tranny? Is this (like my last challenge) a lost cause? Discuss.
Last edited by Drop-a-Daimler; Oct 12, 2007 at 11:55 AM.
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04 C32
Don't be surprised if the C63 ends up producing significantly more power than is advertised. So far it looks like it's the same powertrain as the E63, even the same air boxes and manifold part numbers. MB might choke the car down with a smaller exhaust or detune the ECU -- but I doubt it. It might be like how the E55 was rated as having less power than the SL55 when they were the same.
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C55 AMG, 135i, 911 GT3, GLE43 AMG
If you don't do some sort of forced induction mod to the C55, I would think there is NO chance for a modified N/A C55 to keep up with a stock C63 in straightline acceleration.
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02 C32 AMG
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even if you get the power of a C55 to around 420hp +/-
it will come down to gearing and traction.
The C63 has better gearing down low and on top (not by much) but enough to give it an edge.
Traction: The C63 can have fatter rears without any modification to your sidewalls. The C55 is limited
Handling: no argument there... the new chasis and suspension speak for volumes.
I like the W203 and I would of purcharced a C55 over a C32, but 3 years ago they were out of my purchase power.
As mention above.. I will not be surprised if the C63 is around 470+ hp crank HP from factory.
it will come down to gearing and traction.
The C63 has better gearing down low and on top (not by much) but enough to give it an edge.
Traction: The C63 can have fatter rears without any modification to your sidewalls. The C55 is limited
Handling: no argument there... the new chasis and suspension speak for volumes.
I like the W203 and I would of purcharced a C55 over a C32, but 3 years ago they were out of my purchase power.
As mention above.. I will not be surprised if the C63 is around 470+ hp crank HP from factory.
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2006 C55 AMG, 2.8L Quattro, Softail Nostalgia 1550 (Stage III), Sporster (slammed)
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E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
c55...no chance in hell w/o FI.
c32...maybe....gearing is not too far off the 7gtronic. (6 and 7th are throwaway very tall overdrives)
torque curve is flat for modded c32, with max power to peak rpm. c55 power peak is 5700 with max rpm 6500 power dropping off.
area under the curve at WOT in modded c32 is very respectable...the c63 will be faster but not much. 430-440hp c32 vs 460hp c63.....c63 has a bit better gearing but not dramatically different. c63 is 100-200 lbs heavier.
c32...maybe....gearing is not too far off the 7gtronic. (6 and 7th are throwaway very tall overdrives)
torque curve is flat for modded c32, with max power to peak rpm. c55 power peak is 5700 with max rpm 6500 power dropping off.
area under the curve at WOT in modded c32 is very respectable...the c63 will be faster but not much. 430-440hp c32 vs 460hp c63.....c63 has a bit better gearing but not dramatically different. c63 is 100-200 lbs heavier.
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
here are the overall ratios for the c63
1st- 12.48
2-8.15
3- 5.47
4-3.90
5-2.85
6-2.33
7-2.08
c32
1st-10.98
2nd-6.70
3rd-4.31
4th-3.06
5th-2.53.
the rear tire size is essentially the same....but the c63 will rev to 7200 vs the c32 6220. still, i like the c32's chances.
btw- the amg site has the c63 in the lineup...officially. check it out. you amg nuts have it bookmarked right? i don't need to link right?
1st- 12.48
2-8.15
3- 5.47
4-3.90
5-2.85
6-2.33
7-2.08
c32
1st-10.98
2nd-6.70
3rd-4.31
4th-3.06
5th-2.53.
the rear tire size is essentially the same....but the c63 will rev to 7200 vs the c32 6220. still, i like the c32's chances.
btw- the amg site has the c63 in the lineup...officially. check it out. you amg nuts have it bookmarked right? i don't need to link right?
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2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
I hope to find out soon. I am keeping my C55 until I get the C63 (unmodded) and have a friend drive one while I drive the other. I'm betting that my C55 beats an unmodded C63 but that's just me.
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From: Redondo Beach
Z06, M3, Mini Cooper S. Sold: C55
The C63 will likely be faster than _almost_ any NA modded C55. However, if you perform the right mods, I bet a C55 can be close. A couple of guys have already run 12.6-12.7's or so with their NA C55's (with bolt ons only). A C63 isn't going to do a whole lot better than that.
I've been playing with my C55 and trying to keep it NA but work the power up slowly. The engine doesn't need any more torque down low as the tires can't put it down anyway, so I'm working on increasing the efficiency & HP up top. I'm also going to roll the fenders very slightly to be able to run wider tires. I already have 235/265's on it, and am looking for 245's up front and _maybe_ 275's in the rear (I have a fender roller tool). The 63 doesn't come with any wider tires than that (but maybe they'll fit?). I've also widened the front track 20mm on mine and it does help. I think on the C63 I heard they went about 35mm wider??? But stock they still run narrower rubber up front, less camber & more toe in than I do, so with an extra couple hundred lbs weight will the C63 really turn in any better than a properly setup C55 like mine? hmm...
Once the warranty runs out, I'm tempted to remove the heads & see how much port work can help. The heads are likely to be bottlenecks (since AMG just used regular "500 series" M113 V8 heads and only changed cams & valvesprings, nothing else), along with the exhaust. I've just completed installing shorty headers & a full custom exhaust and am about to do some testing to see what it'll run now, although I do road courses not drag.
I've been playing with my C55 and trying to keep it NA but work the power up slowly. The engine doesn't need any more torque down low as the tires can't put it down anyway, so I'm working on increasing the efficiency & HP up top. I'm also going to roll the fenders very slightly to be able to run wider tires. I already have 235/265's on it, and am looking for 245's up front and _maybe_ 275's in the rear (I have a fender roller tool). The 63 doesn't come with any wider tires than that (but maybe they'll fit?). I've also widened the front track 20mm on mine and it does help. I think on the C63 I heard they went about 35mm wider??? But stock they still run narrower rubber up front, less camber & more toe in than I do, so with an extra couple hundred lbs weight will the C63 really turn in any better than a properly setup C55 like mine? hmm...
Once the warranty runs out, I'm tempted to remove the heads & see how much port work can help. The heads are likely to be bottlenecks (since AMG just used regular "500 series" M113 V8 heads and only changed cams & valvesprings, nothing else), along with the exhaust. I've just completed installing shorty headers & a full custom exhaust and am about to do some testing to see what it'll run now, although I do road courses not drag.
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C63 comes with 9" rims /255
going to 265 will be no issues
upgrading to 9.5/275 will not require any mods if you find the right offset.
last thing..
until we really dyno this thing a few times.. we don't know it actually packs 450hp.
I'll will go on the record, 450 is probably just a marketing figure. Probably 470+
=============================
in regards to the modded C55 running 12's and 110/111 traps..
he has DRs and he is at MIR.. one of the best tracks. Impressive for a C55.
===============================
but if you include DRs to a stock C63.. vs DR's modded C55.. I'll still take the C63.
this is all speculation.. at this point.
going to 265 will be no issues
upgrading to 9.5/275 will not require any mods if you find the right offset.
last thing..
until we really dyno this thing a few times.. we don't know it actually packs 450hp.
I'll will go on the record, 450 is probably just a marketing figure. Probably 470+
=============================
in regards to the modded C55 running 12's and 110/111 traps..
he has DRs and he is at MIR.. one of the best tracks. Impressive for a C55.
===============================
but if you include DRs to a stock C63.. vs DR's modded C55.. I'll still take the C63.
this is all speculation.. at this point.
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C32 AMG
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Is that a joke? I think pretty much everyone will agree that a fully Klemmannized c55k up through cams will beat any c32. Again however as your reading comprehension fails you no one other than yourself is concerned with a c32.
Last edited by spr; Oct 12, 2007 at 04:42 PM.
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
in terms of hi performance C classes well c32s far outnumber c55s. not a lot of c55 owners have shelled out the big bucks for FI. in fact - the most apt comparo would be a stg 2 c32 vs the c63...if you think about it.
anyway....you have got to admire a $25K c32 with $7K in mods vs a $70K c63.....some may prefer to "lose" by 0.5 secs and carry the extra $40 grand around ..........until (if) i buy the c63 -then i will have all sorts of justification for spending on the new car....all car guys do that....!
i'm sort of playing devils advocate with myself as this car is tugging all sorts of strings..........don't like the rs4, m3 looks to be less focused...
but what about the oil consumption issue i see on the e63 forums??? sports car international mag says the 6.2 L motor is cold tested and only 1 in 100 is dynoed........not too long ago every amg motor had a dyno run after assembly.....
Last edited by AWDman; Oct 12, 2007 at 05:00 PM.
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
no doubt but at what price? and how many folks will actually do this?
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
yes sir...i'm waiting for you to start!
spr- don't get bent out of shape.....we're talking diffent species of apples but apples all the same. hell - i have no affiliation or affinity to any particular marque. build the product people want- they will buy it.....and it looks like the c63 will best the rs4 and m3.
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I know quite a few SC C55's actually, but again, who cares how many; that was not even at issue. I also know a guy who had AMG custom make him a car on the w203 c55 07 chassis TT'd and built by AMG with SLR components pushing 8-900hp! Again who cares!
C32 owners are rather rediculous. I'm not sayiing your car isn't cool or is inferior or anthing else. I am just saying who cares when it's irrelevant to the conversation- butt out about c32 stuff. Not everything on this board has to involve a c32! I'm not intersted in being a moderator.
C32 owners are rather rediculous. I'm not sayiing your car isn't cool or is inferior or anthing else. I am just saying who cares when it's irrelevant to the conversation- butt out about c32 stuff. Not everything on this board has to involve a c32! I'm not intersted in being a moderator.
