1sikbenz

Hey guys, i've been lurking in the background for quite some time, I actually have an 05' C230K S.S. but I'm really thinking about a W202, I just like the lines better, but when i do I'm gonna go all out & I wanted to pose the question :

If I got a C43, I'd want to do the top of the line Kleeman upgrade, but I want more dispalcement first, so I thought about the W210 E55 motor swap to do the Kleeman on top of, then I thought why stop there, Brabus has a 6.1 conversion that I could do first, then in a few years do the Kleeman Supercharger, cams, ecu, headers, everthing on top of that...now I wouldn't need the complete Brabus package (cams, ecu, ect.), only the displacement because the rest I'll do with the Kleeman upgrade, but can the Brabus 6.1 conversion be performed on the 4.3 motor or just the 5.5? - Would I have to get the E55 motor first then fo the Brabus mod to it, then drop it in or could I just do it to the 4.3 motor? - What would be the pros & cons of each? - (money aside - thats obvious )


Thanks

Randy
SoCal - 805 V.C.

HLG600

Hmm...you are looking at dropping some serious cash for this W202. Honestly, you would be better off purchasing an AMG Kompressor motor and dropping it in there. That alone would make one awesome sleeper, but if you really want, you go to Kleemann from there. The path you mentioned seems toooo cost ineffective. But the AMG Kompressor is a 5.4 Litre (it can fit) and will make tons of power, even more if tuned. Good Luck.

Ashkan's C43

the newer amg kompressor motors would be hell to make work, its all different wiring and such, I am not even sure if the motor mounts are the same on the non m113 v8s, that aside I know mkb does displacement increases to all m113 motors and gets them all to 6.0, but I have been told by people who are sure of themselves that the block is changed only for that purpose, so I suppose in theory, you could buy a c43, get a 5.4 block in there, bore that out, then do kleeman? Again this is the best idea I can come up with, not sure how true it is, someone chime in?

c55m8o

can you give us a true budget you have and how much of this is 'pie in the sky' stuff like I used to throw around on these boards myself in the past? Congrats if you got the ability to sink 2x - 3x more money into the C43 with those upgrades then you'd buy it for today ... you'd be nuttier then I am if so.

The mechanic who did my 5.4L swap I think is doing a newer E55 Kompressor swap into a W203. That's the sh*t there w/o breaking the bank IMO.

You want the 5.4L motor if your going to do that sik stuff to it. Much beefier crank, and silica-steel sleeves that were pressed into the aluminum block while it was still hot, where the C43 had a coating I believe. Not that I know the max bore the 4.3L can handle, but bore the 4.3L any and you lose the coating completely anyway. ...I believe this is how it is at least with those engines.

Edit: how much you want to offer me for my car to get you started?
just kid'n.

SL BRABUS

you could get a C43 and do the Brabus 6.1 conversion...... ... If you say the money is an issue then you better off getting a C55 and leave it stock.. ...

Ashkan's C43

he said he likes the 202... so I guess that's where he is coming from, and c55m8, if you had two tone, I would bother you everyday to sell your car to me.... (: which btw how much would you part with it for?

Ashkan's C43

can't the block be recoated? and c55m8 if your car had two tone, I would bother you everyday to sell it to me... (: btw how much would you sell your car for? Assumeing you would sell it now... and would the cost of getting a new engine and having it installed be cheaper than having the c43 get a renntech block and a better crank? Because if he was upgrading internals anyhow, what would be the parts that would not be changed? Well to make this sound more clear, if he upgraded the internals from the parts he listed from kleeman, what are the parts that differ between the c43 and e55, that are not upgraded?

c55m8o

well he didn't list a crank and I didn't think renn would replace that; but I guess it makes sense they could.

my price would be over what anyone would be willing to pay so I won't even say it.

Ashkan's C43

renntech does switch blocks for sure though, i called about that, and a guy was selling a c43 with a renntech block, not that it is anything special, just bought a ton of amg ones at lower cost, relabel as renntech and charge more...

kchristos

Why do you want to modify to 6.1? What kind of power are you looking for? The Kleemann options should be more than enough, if you go more than Kleemann you will need to do some very serious upgrades on your transmission, suspension, brakes and still have traction issues.

Kleemann offers the following packages for the stock 4.3L and 5.5L (E55) engines:

Engine Mod Hp Torque (lb-ft)
4.3L S/C 430 414
4.3L Stage 7 475 442
5.5L S/C 560 530
5.5L Stage 8 600 590

BTW, I don't generally believe in modifications, but if I was going to do anything, I would go with a package from a reputable tuner and not try to combine mods from different tuners. Just my 2c.

http://www.kleemann.dk/site/D73BB20B...AD205206BF.htm
http://www.kleemann.dk/site/64A747CF...209322635F.htm

kchristos

Actually, to add to the above, it seems that the Stage 8 (607hp) mod on an E55 won the 1977 The World's fastest saloon-car. I have the video clip on that car as it is lunching and it is INSANE. I will try to find a place on the internet to upload it.

http://www.kleemann.dk/site/Main/worldrecords/e55k

Ashkan's C43

what do stage 8 mods include? And I believe he would do the more to get even more hp possible than with s8 only, so add the number of hp you get from doing the 6.1 to the s8 mods, and that would be the total of mixing tuners...

Ted Baldwin

............If you do what you are planning you will loose power. Do a search on this forum for Sleestack. He tried this on a w208.

............the issue is simple............boost power. To generate the desired HP, the Kleemann s/c was designed and tested to work in the 5.5 liter engines to reliably produce close to the stated Hp and tq numbers. If you then bore out your engine and then instal the Kleemann s/c, you will not have enough boost pressure to make much power.

Ted

ProjectC55

Ted has hit the nail right on the head.This is definitely your best option(5.5l F/I Kleeman or find stck E55K motor).IMOP 6.1L pure waste of time, effort and money! The SLR sure did'nt need the 6.1!

JamE55

Just my 2 cents.

Brabus displacement + Kleemann s/c i wouldn't recommend it. There's actually a guy on this board who has that combo and in all honesty stick with one tuner if you can. Otherwise if you get into some engine issues it'll be a nightmare. Again stick with one tuner. Kleemann all the way!

Ashkan's C43

did he try to up the boost to the kompressor, if he has upgraded internals, rods, pistons, cams and that stuff would it be a serious issue?

2QUIK4U

I am sorry, but I am having a very difficult time understanding your logic. If money is no object, why not buy an E55 or the new E63 that will hit the markets shortly. Afterall, with all the modifications that you mention, you will easily be able to afford one of two.

I just don't understand why on earth somebody would buy an old bodystyle and sink that kind of money into it, absoluteley irrationale if you ask me.

Ashkan's C43

style, perference, and taste, I also perfer the older body style, i.e. given a choice between a brand new c350 or a 99 c43, I would go with the c43, he likes the older tank looking benzs, their build quality is excellent, and that's what he likes, if he wanted a e63 or e55 211 there would be no thread about this....

Ashkan's C43

so I was reading about this 6.2 kleeman project from evosport, but I can't really find out what happened to it? Was the car ever finished? How much did he really spend? I remember seeing something along the lines of 7k for a roll cage and 8k for a bodykit, which seems unreal, how could you pay 8k for a bodykit, I didn't know they ran that high... but again evosports site claimed 650hp, and I am not sure if those were projected claims or if a dyno was ever even taken... can someone fill me in... man that was such a great story, well worth all the reads...

2QUIK4U

I understand your point that he might prefer the old body style over the new. I like the looks of the C43 as well, as a matter of fact I used to own one (I definitely don't think it looks nicer than my C55, but again that is a matter of taste).

With respect to build quality, the new C-class is undisputably much improved over the 202. Just look at the transmission issues with the C43.The transmission of the C43 should warrant enough reason to not consider such modifications in which the engine will be developing in excess of 450 H.P.

No matter how beautiful you find the older looking 202 bodystyle to be, there is no way you can justify sinking that kind of money into a car unless you've suffered severe head trauma at some point in your life. It just does not make sense. If money is no object, and the new C-class does not suit your taste, then there are hundreds of other cars that are alot nicer looking than the 202 c-class.

Not to mention, has reliability ever crossed your mind. Obviously tuners like Kleemann and Brabus attempt to maximize power by tuning the motor to its absolute operating capability. Doing the modifications of both tuners probably exceeds the threshholds of the engine by a fair margin. You would probably be lucky if you even got 5000 miles out of such an engine. What people seem to forget much to often, is that tuning is always a trade off. By increasing power output you will almost always reduce reliability. People think that they can tune a car to race car performance levels and drive the thing for >50,000 miles. Unfortunately, it does not work that way. A good example is top fuel dragsters. Yes, they put out absurd horsepower numbers, however the engines need to be rebuilt from the bottom up every 3-5 runs.

So along with with the inordinate costs of having such modifications undertaken, you should also factor in the inordinate maintenance bills you will see from your mechanic. Tuning a C43 in such a manner verges on borderline stupidity.

Ashkan's C43

the modding an old car is stupid arguement is only valid if you are going to sell your car, if you want to keep this car forever, there is no need to call it stupid because you are making a car for yourself not to resell, resell or pouring money into an old car in invalid if its a perference, because it is a perference, and as far as the 203s go, the suspension on the 202 is a much better design, and speedybenz suspension is anything better that can be done on a 203 amg or not, and aside from the tranny, 202s are normally problem free, at least the new one, and if this project would be really undergoing, a new tranny and much chassis stiffening, and in regards to having more options in a 203 than a 202, most of th options in a fully loaded c43 are in the 203, and most everything else can be added via steve (mbenznl) or sunman, with 5k or less, I believe you can add almost every option that could be possible for a 202, and at least for me, I just can't get use to round lights yet, I mean the 210 is slowly growing on me, but I still don't like these newer cars, but hey its just me, and I think the 560sel 91 is a beautiful car...

Ashkan's C43

I am glad however 2QUIK4U that you are giving some great comments to this thread, I think this is one of the best threads i have seen on this board in a while, except for that fugly colored c43, that was crazy....lol

c55m8o

Has it occured to anyone else that the original author of this thread hasn't returned? Why should you all care more about this then he/she?

I was reluctant to even reply the 1st time seeing this pretty silly (imo) idea -- also being the author's 1st post -- and that he/she was just yank'n our chain ... I think so even more now. I'm outta this thread as I feel like a suka for providing even any of my thoughts....

2QUIK4U

You're right. Its funny how one gets caught up responding to inane topics...

Ted Baldwin

........you may wish to talk to some who have done a complete Kleemann conversion. It is not exactly cheap. The cost probably excedes that of a Brabus 6.1L conversion. But putting cost aside, the NA Brabus 6.1L conversion will be a significantly slower car compared to a FI AMG V8K.

...........although I understand where you are coming from, I opinion is totally different. There folks who actually like certain cars not because those cars are the newest fad and most chic thing to have for that year. Further, there those who like the idea of creating a totally unique automotive for themselves. And although you and I may not be one of them, there those for whom cost is absolutely not an issue, and some of them are members of this forum. There are also those for whom the ultimate pleasure lies in creating what for them is a masterpiece. In this regard the greates fun is in the creation process rather than the finished product. Buying an already tuned car off the lot for some, is boring.

..............................this is Sleestacks car. This was the car I was ferring to in my earlier post. The car was never completed. The 650Hp figure has no basis in reality since the car was never completed. The reasons are mentioned in my earlier post.

..............finally just wanted to say that I am happy to be alive when the car culture finally came back. The automobile is back. It is not just a way to get from point A to point B. It is a whole subculture. The HP race is back, car modifications are back, tuners are everywhere, and customers are finally having fun again with the automobile as was the case in the 60's.

Ted